Blue Sky

There's something I've noticed in some material online (not just here, but lots of places) that I've found interesting. There seems to be an idea that if someone is personality disordered, the persona that they create to interact with the world is a "lie," intended to deceive and manipulate the world.

I was in this relationship, with the man I'm currently married to, for a few weeks, and then the bottom fell out. I mean, really. One day I woke up, and I felt nothing. The relationship hadn't changed, he hadn't done anything wrong, but my mood had shifted like the wind. I didn't want to be there anymore, but on the other hand, I did. Great, I thought. Now I'm going to lose this relationship too, because I'm hopelessly, helplessly, messed up.

So I tried to act like my old self, but of course, that didn't work. My not-yet-husband noticed immediately. He was dismayed.

"What is it? What's changed?" He said.

"It's not you, it's me," I told him. And I prepared myself to be left. There was no doubt in my mind that I was going to be left again, that I was completely inadequate.

And he didn't leave me. He was sorry, of course, that this had happened, but somehow, he seemed to understand. He just let me decide who I wanted to be, who I was able to be. I am able to have a normal life, and children, and a marriage, not because I'm "normal," but because my husband accepts me as I am.

Am I playing human? Attempting to manipulate him for what I can get out of him? Ready to discard him when I've used him up? Or have I been the best wife I could be, to the best of my own ability?

I don't buy into the "personality disorder = evil" theory. I know it makes it easier when your relationship doesn't work out. And there are certainly people out there, personality disordered or otherwise, who will take advantage of other people, and not all relationships work out. But ultimately, this idea that people with personality disorders are "vampires" cheats them of their humanity, and others of the experience of having loved someone.

Do you remember the movie Blue Sky? When Tommy Lee Jones says that he accepts Carly as she is, no matter how he finds her, because it's all Carly? It's like that. Does she want to be that way? Do I? H*ll, no. I want to bake cakes and work my jobs, and raise my kids and love my husband. But this is what I've got, so this is what I go with. And he goes with me, because he loves me.

Just a thought. Good luck with your relationships, guys.

I was in this relationship, with the man I'm currently married to, for a few weeks, and then the bottom fell out. I mean, really. One day I woke up, and I felt nothing. The relationship hadn't changed, he hadn't done anything wrong, but my mood had shifted like the wind. I didn't want to be there anymore, but on the other hand, I did. Great, I thought. Now I'm going to lose this relationship too, because I'm hopelessly, helplessly, messed up. .....................

My thoughts are- Love is an act of will after the initial "romantic stage" wears off, and it always does. It is a conscious decision that one makes to spend his/her life with someone and treat them as you would like to be treated....

Alethiea, why do you think you have HPD? Were you diagnosed by a specialist?

HPDs cheat and lie. That's why non-HPDs have a lot of bad feelings. And it is often hard to spot a HPD if you are not already in a relationship with them. That's why they are called "vampires". By the time you realize that they have serious problems you have been already beaten by them!

Sure, they are human! They suffer too. But regular vampires (if such beings ever existed!) can also claim that they are not responsible for what they do, they just have a need for blood!...

(By the way, Alethiea=Truth in Greek ... is this a joke? ...)

Good for you; I was wondering if anyone would catch that. Actually Alethiea in Greek is "the truth remembered." I have dissociative amnesia.

I made clear in earlier other posts that I don't have HPD, I have Borderline Personality Disorder. But since my HPD fellow-sufferers all have something better to do on a Friday night, I'm here holding down the fort. My understanding is that both HPD and BPD arise from traumatic experiences.

I don't think it's helpful to compare someone with a personality disorder to vampires or similar traditional symbols of evil. There seems to be some perception in there that the person with the disorder has made a choice to inflict pain on someone, that they know what they are doing, that they would continue to do it if they knew of some alternative means of relating and functioning, and so on. It would be more appropriate to think of someone with a personality disorder as being emotionally blinded; they crash around and bump into things, sometimes you, because they simply don't know how not to.

Remember back when people used to wonder why people with depression didn't just "get on with life" or "get over it"? And then there was a lot of literature and public education about just how out of control depression can make you?

This is the same kind of thing. People with personality disorders aren't selfish or evil, they are sick. They are sick in a way that makes it look like they are choosing to hurt other people. They aren't. They are in pain so intense, it has literally wrenched their minds loose.

I think much of the anger I see directed at people with personality disorders comes from this perception that they choose to be what they are. I assure you, I would far rather not have to deal with my BPD. It's basically destroyed my life. I don't cheat or lie -- anymore. But I was a treat and a half right after my first rape. I can't really talk about it. There is no way on Earth I would have chosen that.

"There's something I've noticed in some material online (not just here, but lots of places) that I've found interesting. There seems to be an idea that if someone is personality disordered, the persona that they create to interact with the world is a "lie," intended to deceive and manipulate the world."

Cluster B's don't have a real personality according to the male ASPD I talked to and what I've read on them by professionals backs him up. Anyway this guy told me that people's only use for him is to provide a service and he will play a part for them in order to get it. Since he doesn't have a real personality underneath everything but is playing one to get their services what he is doing is in fact a lie as he is projecting forth something he is not. My HPD did this to me and another Cluster B this time a borderline chick I got to talk to told me she did the same thing to guys to get them to like her so I think its safe to say that what they do to draw people in is a lie.

"I was in this relationship, with the man I'm currently married to, for a few weeks, and then the bottom fell out. I mean, really. One day I woke up, and I felt nothing. The relationship hadn't changed, he hadn't done anything wrong, but my mood had shifted like the wind. I didn't want to be there anymore, but on the other hand, I did. Great, I thought. Now I'm going to lose this relationship too, because I'm hopelessly, helplessly, messed up.

So I tried to act like my old self, but of course, that didn't work. My not-yet-husband noticed immediately. He was dismayed.

"What is it? What's changed?" He said.

"It's not you, it's me," I told him. And I prepared myself to be left. There was no doubt in my mind that I was going to be left again, that I was completely inadequate.

And he didn't leave me. He was sorry, of course, that this had happened, but somehow, he seemed to understand. He just let me decide who I wanted to be, who I was able to be. I am able to have a normal life, and children, and a marriage, not because I'm "normal," but because my husband accepts me as I am.

Am I playing human? Attempting to manipulate him for what I can get out of him? Ready to discard him when I've used him up? Or have I been the best wife I could be, to the best of my own ability?"

If you still have no feelings for this man yet for some reason go on with the relationship regardless then yes you are playing a role. That of human with genuine emotions.

"I don't buy into the "personality disorder = evil" theory. I know it makes it easier when your relationship doesn't work out."

I buy into the idea at least half way as Cluster B's do know right from wrong and more often than not choose wrong over right. Why am I divided on this? Well because they don't have the same emotional range as a normal person obviously and don't have a genuine reference point and most importantly empathy to go by to feel how incredibly hurtful their actions are to people. They probably believe people they wrong aren't hurt for very long at all so its ok what they've done as the bad feelings will be turned off like a light switch just like this cluster b person can do by sucking down some alcohol or engaging in some other futile distraction techniques or if they are a more severely disordered Cluster B the people they wrong they believe have actually wronged them and if the severely disordered don't believe that scenario they'll likely say the other person got what they had coming to them for being weak.

"And there are certainly people out there, personality disordered or otherwise, who will take advantage of other people, and not all relationships work out. But ultimately, this idea that people with personality disorders are "vampires" cheats them of their humanity, and others of the experience of having loved someone."

Any humanity a Cluster B ever had was destroyed in childhood or in some cases certain Cluster B's were born the way they are and never had any humanity outside of the flesh casing they are contained in.

Also vampire applies to these people even if it could be effectively argued 100% that they are not evil as to deal with a true Cluster B unawares to what they are after your apparently strong friendship or relationship with one of them breaks down the normal person on the other end often feels like they've lost their soul and has PTSD as well. The soul loss feeling is because Cluster B's are takers. They take and use hardly if ever giving anything back to the person that is their friend or lover and then out of the blue the supposedly strong friendship or love affair is over and he/she acts like you never existed.

Suddenly you begin to think you were never that special after all but my oh my this person built you up and made you feel you were!

But its all taken away for a longtime after an encounter with one of these people. You have to build yourself up again after dealing with a true Cluster B.

"Do you remember the movie Blue Sky? When Tommy Lee Jones says that he accepts Carly as she is, no matter how he finds her, because it's all Carly? It's like that. Does she want to be that way? Do I? H*ll, no. I want to bake cakes and work my jobs, and raise my kids and love my husband. But this is what I've got, so this is what I go with. And he goes with me, because he loves me."

His character was addicted to her dramatics and sexuality. The illusion not the real woman (as there was nothing real to love anyway). His character was just as unhealthy as she was but in a different way because if the man was truly healthy he would of never subjected himself or his children to that subtle and insidious abuse.

"(By the way, Alethiea=Truth in Greek ... is this a joke? ...)"

The male ASPD I talked with told me he loved double meanings for names.

I would not at all be surprised if this Alethia character is him trying to alleviate his boredom so read these Alethia posts with a grain of salt.

I've talked to true BPD's, ASPD's and HPD's before and Aleithia just doesn't seem genuine to me. Maybe its not my ASPD buddy but this character's posts just seem too insightful to be from the mind of a borderline to me. They sound more ASPD like.

"I made clear in earlier other posts that I don't have HPD, I have Borderline Personality Disorder. But since my HPD fellow-sufferers all have something better to do on a Friday night, I'm here holding down the fort. Wink My understanding is that both HPD and BPD arise from traumatic experiences."

Researchers have not pinpointed the exact cause of HPD. The possible causes range from simple genetics to abusive early environment or traumatic experience.

"I don't think it's helpful to compare someone with a personality disorder to vampires or similar traditional symbols of evil. There seems to be some perception in there that the person with the disorder has made a choice to inflict pain on someone, that they know what they are doing, that they would continue to do it if they knew of some alternative means of relating and functioning, and so on. It would be more appropriate to think of someone with a personality disorder as being emotionally blinded; they crash around and bump into things, sometimes you, because they simply don't know how not to."

Cluster B's are emotional vampires because again they are takers, they take everything good from a person and then once that person is on cloud nine thinking they've met the most wonderful person they'll ever encounter, Cluster B sticks the knife in their back/heart and disappears in the night just like a vampire after feeding on too much blood. So to sum up they feed on a normal person's good emotions and feel what that person is feeling and when they are finally satisfied they can get no more emotions out of this person that will make them feel good like a vampire they move onto a new and fresh victim (but in Cluster B's case its out of boredom). A vampire usually kills its prey which is why it has to move on. Its not much different for Cluster B as they have to move on also but its because the longer they stay around any certain person that person begins to see through their facade of lies of how the Cluster B believes themself to be and how that vision isn't true and a Cluster B can't stand to be found out as they look to normal people's reactions as mirrors to how they want to see themselves and once the normal person begins to realize what the Cluster B truly is the mirror becomes a reflection of many horrors. Horrors a Cluster B can't stand to look at or examine so its time to move on to fresh new people so she/he can be someone else. Maybe someone not so troubled and it will last for a little while but ultimately as most things for Cluster B's in life the new con will inevitably fail as well and their self hate feelings will return and it will be time to move on again continuing the cycle of self destruction and the breaking of hearts and friendships.

"This is the same kind of thing. People with personality disorders aren't selfish or evil, they are sick. They are sick in a way that makes it look like they are choosing to hurt other people. They aren't. They are in pain so intense, it has literally wrenched their minds loose.

I think much of the anger I see directed at people with personality disorders comes from this perception that they choose to be what they are. I assure you, I would far rather not have to deal with my BPD. It's basically destroyed my life. I don't cheat or lie -- anymore. But I was a treat and a half right after my first rape. I can't really talk about it. There is no way on Earth I would have chosen that."

They are certainly sick but I wouldn't necessarily say they aren't evil. All Cluster B's know right from wrong and the ones that repeatedly choose wrong over right are in my view and many others sick and evil not just simply sick as that would be a copout for someone who understands wrong and right on an intellectual level if not emotional as all Cluster B's do.

So you talked to a sociopath, one girl with BPD, and you read some stuff. And that is exactly how much information and experience you have, outside of some apparently bad relationships you don't mention. Okay.

"Anyway, this guy told me that people's only use for him is to provide a service and he will play a part for them in order to get it. Since he doesn't have a real personality underneath everything but is playing one to get their services what he is doing is in fact a lie as he is projecting forth something he is not."

Who is "he"? What makes the decision to project something? Why project one sort of personality, and not another? Why choose blue instead of red?

When we attempt to explain ourselves to people, we are forced to describe ourselves in ways that can be interpreted that we are intentionally presenting ourselves in a certain way for a certain effect. To an extent, we are. Rightly or wrongly, we are strongly driven to present ourselves in a way that will cause people to like us rather than dislike us. I believe normal people also to some degree maintain a degree of control over what they want people to know about them, but are less driven to do so for approval. Even so, I don't know anyone "normal" who intentionally pisses people off for no reason.

You cannnot have it both ways: If we have no personality, as you say, then of course we must construct something to interact with the world. If we do have a personality, and we construct a false one, then of course we are lying -- unless, as has been my experience, our "real" self does not always make itself available for interviews and public appearances (cue the interpretive dance segment of the program), which in my experience is weirdly like those dreams where you show up for school naked.

Lying is a choice to act or behave in a way opposite to the truth. This makes the assumption that the truth is known; however, in our case, the real self, the truth, is not known. The constructed personality is not a lie, per se., so much as it is our attempt to be ourselves when the Self has gone awol.

That we are uncertain of who we are does not mean that we have no personality; although that information appears all over the place, it's entirely untrue. First of all, personality is at least in part genetically encoded, so in the same way that I have red hair and green eyes, for example, I also have my father's ability to be very analytical about things, and my mother's light sarcasm. Other BPD's will not possess those traits. It is impossible not to have a personality, however submerged or damaged it becomes by the events of our lives. Let's face it: Although the disease filters our interactions with the world, we are not all identical. If we actually were blank slates, with no personality, we would be. If you are finding that we are, then my feeling is that you are interacting with the disease -- you are drawn to the symptoms, which, unfortunately, have a dark side.

If you still have no feelings for this man yet for some reason go on with the relationship regardless then yes you are playing a role. That of human with genuine emotions.

Ever heard that saying, if you love something set it free? Of course you have. I can construct a self to deal with what I have to -- but I will only go back to that which I love and trust. The men I go back to are very few and far between. If I keep turning up in your life, I may not know myself why I keep showing up to see you, but chances are very good I actually like you.

And there've you've done it again, by the way. Suggested that I am not human.

I buy into the idea at least half way as Cluster B's do know right from wrong and more often than not choose wrong over right. Why am I divided on this? Well because they don't have the same emotional range as a normal person obviously and don't have a genuine reference point and most importantly empathy to go by to feel how incredibly hurtful their actions are to people.

Interesting. So now we lack empathy, although, in fact, you are entirely alone in ascribing lack of empathy to all Cluster B disorders; only sociopaths are said to lack empathy. But you have elsewhere described us as if we are all sociopaths in essence.

I don't lack empathy. I have been hurt to prevent people I loved from being hurt, I have sat up all night with someone else's injured pet, I picked up the wounded bird from off the street and moved it to a safe place -- I have passed the "empathy test." So you're wrong.

This brings us into the realm of religion and philosophy: Does morality necessarily acrue to mental health? If one is normal, is one therefore incapable of or unlikely to choose to do selfish or evil acts? I don't believe you or anyone can answer that question yet.

His character was addicted to her dramatics and sexuality. The illusion not the real woman (as there was nothing real to love anyway). His character was just as unhealthy as she was but in a different way because if the man was truly healthy he would of never subjected himself or his children to that subtle and insidious abuse.

Fortunately, not everyone who interacts with us is attracted to the disease. Some people enjoy my intelligence, my tastes in music, my sense of humour, my sense of adventure. My courage. I don't allow people I'm in relationships with to over-extend themselves, if I become aware. I am maybe a little too much that way, actually.

I've talked to true BPD's, ASPD's and HPD's before and Aleithia just doesn't seem genuine to me. Maybe its not my ASPD buddy but this character's posts just seem too insightful to be from the mind of a borderline to me. They sound more ASPD like.

Well, my biological father's a contract lawyer...

Sorry, I'm the real deal. Diagnosed BPD and everything (I'm not happy about that, but that's the way it is). I was adopted, and the word Alethiea appealed to me from some writings by C.S. Lewis. Being able to know the truth, and remember the truth, is important to me.

But if you can't beat 'em, discredit them, right?

Cluster B's are emotional vampires because again they are takers, they take everything good from a person and then once that person is on cloud nine thinking they've met the most wonderful person they'll ever encounter, Cluster B sticks the knife in their back/heart and disappears in the night just like a vampire after feeding on too much blood. So to sum up they feed on a normal person's good emotions and feel what that person is feeling and when they are finally satisfied they can get no more emotions out of this person that will make them feel good like a vampire they move onto a new and fresh victim (but in Cluster B's case its out of boredom)

Now you seem to be confusing all of us with narcissists, who need continual re-affirmation and stimulation. I, on the other hand, am much more likely to bail when I get exactly what the narcissist would be looking for: Affirmation of love. I can sit and describe my narcissistic love in the most godlike of terms, and he'll just soak it all up. I love to say it, and he loves to hear it, and everyone's happy. God help us both if he then turns around and says, yes, I love you, I want you, because whether I like it or not, I will be immediately paralyzed with fear.

You really are mistaking choice, volition, with the disease. You don't get the most basic thing there is to get: We can't help it. We are not choosing to be what we are. If I had that kind of control over this, I wouldn't consider it an illness at all. It would be a choice. We could just clear out the shrinks waiting rooms, because hey, it's a choice.

But no, it isn't. It screws me up, makes me afraid when I need to be brave, drives me to be unable to remember things that are contradictory (in my mind, a bad memory of someone I love and a good memory are very hard to hold at the same time), and leaves me unable to remember the love of someone when I haven't seen them in awhile -- I have no object constantcy. Why would I choose that? Why would I choose to lose the memories that I need, turn away from the love I long for, drive away the people I need?

You are making the assumption that we are evil because you have this bizarre scenario in your head about how we live and interact with people. That's not how it is. Your theory is facile and glib.

I'm a life-long Christian. Let me just say, from that perspective, it's considered very, very serious to accuse a group of people of being evil. To say it about one person is bad enough, but to take a whole group and say that they aren't human -- you understand what you are doing? You recognize that this has been done before in history, to uniformly and singularily bad results? Do you see what you are doing?

"So you talked to a sociopath, one girl with BPD, and you read some stuff. And that is exactly how much information and experience you have, outside of some apparently bad relationships you don't mention."

Yes. So as you can see I have a ton of experience on the subject.

"Anyway, this guy told me that people's only use for him is to provide a service and he will play a part for them in order to get it. Since he doesn't have a real personality underneath everything but is playing one to get their services what he is doing is in fact a lie as he is projecting forth something he is not."

"Who is "he"?"

He's everyone and no one.

For me he played a role of evil Nazi (no joke) and a Terminator.

It was entertaining talking to him to be sure.

"What makes the decision to project something? Why project one sort of personality, and not another? Why choose blue instead of red?"

Uh because each person he talks to is different and wants something different out of a lover or friend. Duh.

"You cannnot have it both ways: If we have no personality, as you say, then of course we must construct something to interact with the world. If we do have a personality, and we construct a false one, then of course we are lying -- unless, as has been my experience, our "real" self does not always make itself available for interviews and public appearances (cue the interpretive dance segment of the program), which in my experience is weirdly like those dreams where you show up for school naked."

No, you're not getting it.

A cluster b is pretty much a liar by default because of their disorder.

Since they have no real personality as you yourself said they must construct something to present to the world and that construct is by default a lie because it is not real.

"Lying is a choice to act or behave in a way opposite to the truth. This makes the assumption that the truth is known; however, in our case, the real self, the truth, is not known. The constructed personality is not a lie, per se., so much as it is our attempt to be ourselves when the Self has gone awol."

No, its very much a lie but understandably as its all you have left since the real self is hidden and unreachable.

"That we are uncertain of who we are does not mean that we have no personality; although that information appears all over the place, it's entirely untrue. First of all, personality is at least in part genetically encoded, so in the same way that I have red hair and green eyes, for example, I also have my father's ability to be very analytical about things, and my mother's light sarcasm. Other BPD's will not possess those traits. It is impossible not to have a personality, however submerged or damaged it becomes by the events of our lives. Let's face it: Although the disease filters our interactions with the world, we are not all identical. If we actually were blank slates, with no personality, we would be. If you are finding that we are, then my feeling is that you are interacting with the disease -- you are drawn to the symptoms, which, unfortunately, have a dark side."

Bits of personality do not make a whole.

Which is what I mean when I say Cluster B's have no real personality.

Just as a hand by itself is not a full body possessing some personality traits of your mother or father does not make you have a real full personality.

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If you still have no feelings for this man yet for some reason go on with the relationship regardless then yes you are playing a role. That of human with genuine emotions.

"Ever heard that saying, if you love something set it free? Of course you have. I can construct a self to deal with what I have to -- but I will only go back to that which I love and trust. The men I go back to are very few and far between. If I keep turning up in your life, I may not know myself why I keep showing up to see you, but chances are very good I actually like you."

Interesting.

"And there've you've done it again, by the way. Suggested that I am not human."

No, I left what I said open ended for you to make the determination for yourself if you were doing this. You looked at is as a personal attack. Something it was not.

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I buy into the idea at least half way as Cluster B's do know right from wrong and more often than not choose wrong over right. Why am I divided on this? Well because they don't have the same emotional range as a normal person obviously and don't have a genuine reference point and most importantly empathy to go by to feel how incredibly hurtful their actions are to people.


"Interesting. So now we lack empathy, although, in fact, you are entirely alone in ascribing lack of empathy to all Cluster B disorders; only sociopaths are said to lack empathy. But you have elsewhere described us as if we are all sociopaths in essence."

The research I've read says all of Cluster B lacks empathy (the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes to know how they are feeling) and I absolutely agree with it. Sam Vaknin makes it very clear narcissists lack it. The HPD literature I've read says they lack it and on and on. I can get you links if you want them?

Also I take my meaning for what a sociopath is off of sociopathic.net. Usually that word is simply used to describe an ASPD but I believe it describes all of Cluster B because on the site I believe it defined sociopath as someone who plays an entirely false role to get what they want. The girl I was involved with did this. The ASPD I talked to did this and finally the BPD girl I talked to did this as well so I'd say sociopath describes all of them but I feel the worst of these sociopaths is the ASPD as they have no conscience or remorse whereas a BPD or an HPD has a little bit of that left but not much.

"I don't lack empathy. I have been hurt to prevent people I loved from being hurt, I have sat up all night with someone else's injured pet, I picked up the wounded bird from off the street and moved it to a safe place -- I have passed the "empathy test." So you're wrong."

empathy:

Noun
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Thats empathy.

What you showed was sympathy.

There's a difference between the two.

"This brings us into the realm of religion and philosophy: Does morality necessarily acrue to mental health? If one is normal, is one therefore incapable of or unlikely to choose to do selfish or evil acts? I don't believe you or anyone can answer that question yet."

I believe anyone who is not insane is capable of evil. Cluster B is not insane and most normal people are not either otherwise they wouldn't be normal lol.

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His character was addicted to her dramatics and sexuality. The illusion not the real woman (as there was nothing real to love anyway). His character was just as unhealthy as she was but in a different way because if the man was truly healthy he would of never subjected himself or his children to that subtle and insidious abuse.

"Fortunately, not everyone who interacts with us is attracted to the disease. Some people enjoy my intelligence, my tastes in music, my sense of humour, my sense of adventure. My courage. I don't allow people I'm in relationships with to over-extend themselves, if I become aware. I am maybe a little too much that way, actually."

Sense of humour, adventure, the illusion of courage are all parts of the disorder while the intelligence and musical taste are parts of the real personality left over.

So yeah pretty much everyone drawn to a Cluster B is drawn because of the pleasing effects of the disorder as the disorder is the majority of what is left.

There is basically nothing left to love but the disorder as that is what the person is since the true self is so buried.

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I've talked to true BPD's, ASPD's and HPD's before and Aleithia just doesn't seem genuine to me. Maybe its not my ASPD buddy but this character's posts just seem too insightful to be from the mind of a borderline to me. They sound more ASPD like.


"Well, my biological father's a contract lawyer... Wink

Sorry, I'm the real deal. Diagnosed BPD and everything (I'm not happy about that, but that's the way it is). I was adopted, and the word Alethiea appealed to me from some writings by C.S. Lewis. Being able to know the truth, and remember the truth, is important to me.

But if you can't beat 'em, discredit them, right? Smile"

Who said I'm trying to beat you?

See this goes right along with what my ASPD Nazi buddy told me.

Everything in life to him from the smallest to the largest things are some form of game that must be won by him at all costs.

You are thinking like him Alethia which is confirming my suspicions about you actually being him and not just some BPD chick even more.

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Cluster B's are emotional vampires because again they are takers, they take everything good from a person and then once that person is on cloud nine thinking they've met the most wonderful person they'll ever encounter, Cluster B sticks the knife in their back/heart and disappears in the night just like a vampire after feeding on too much blood. So to sum up they feed on a normal person's good emotions and feel what that person is feeling and when they are finally satisfied they can get no more emotions out of this person that will make them feel good like a vampire they move onto a new and fresh victim (but in Cluster B's case its out of boredom)

"Now you seem to be confusing all of us with narcissists, who need continual re-affirmation and stimulation. I, on the other hand, am much more likely to bail when I get exactly what the narcissist would be looking for: Affirmation of love. I can sit and describe my narcissistic love in the most godlike of terms, and he'll just soak it all up. I love to say it, and he loves to hear it, and everyone's happy. God help us both if he then turns around and says, yes, I love you, I want you, because whether I like it or not, I will be immediately paralyzed with fear."

What a borderline most fears is abandonment not love.

So are you sure you got the correct diagnosis?

If you're not my ASPD buddy out to alleviate his boredom through playing the game of pretending to be some BPD chick your posts would make sense as those of an N since they and ASPD's sound a lot alike in writing.

"You really are mistaking choice, volition, with the disease. You don't get the most basic thing there is to get: We can't help it. We are not choosing to be what we are. If I had that kind of control over this, I wouldn't consider it an illness at all. It would be a choice. We could just clear out the shrinks waiting rooms, because hey, it's a choice."

I didn't say all of your behaviours are a choice I just said Cluster B's have the ability to choose between right and wrong as they understand right and wrong. You have a choice whether to sleep with a certain guy thats not your boyfriend or husband and more often than not a BPD will make the choice to sleep with that other guy. The wrong choice. I'm not saying she can control her thoughts to want to sleep with that man and keep those thoughts from popping up in her head no but she very much can control herself to not perform the actual act just like a normal person can make that decision because both a normal person and BPD know right from wrong.

"You are making the assumption that we are evil because you have this bizarre scenario in your head about how we live and interact with people. That's not how it is. Your theory is facile and glib."

No, you just didn't read my posts thoroughly as was typical of my IM's to my ASPD. Though brilliant the guy underneath it all was a 10 year old boy lacking in attention to detail. If you were able to closely pay attention you would realize I said the Cluster B's who choose to perform wrong acts are the evil ones and only those Cluster B's who continually make those bad choices.

"I'm a life-long Christian. Let me just say, from that perspective, it's considered very, very serious to accuse a group of people of being evil. To say it about one person is bad enough, but to take a whole group and say that they aren't human -- you understand what you are doing? You recognize that this has been done before in history, to uniformly and singularily bad results? Do you see what you are doing?"

Cluster B's are mere shells of a human being since they cannot access their true personality.I never advocated they all be killed like your Christian church did for certain women back during the salem witch trials so I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself here.

He's everyone and no one.

No, you're misunderstanding me. Who is the "he" who makes the determination of who to be? If there is no self, no personality, then what/who is determining how to present themselves to other people?

they have no real personality

the real self is hidden and unreachable

Okay, so they do and they don't have an actual personality?

Bits of personality do not make a whole.

Obviously I can't communicate my entire personality -- such as I understand it -- online.

My contention, I suppose, is that the real personality directs everything, without the person being aware of it. I can't buy into your idea that there is no personality.

The false self is created in much the same way an artist creates; it is an interpretation of the Self, and will contain aspects of the Self, more or less dependent upon the person I suppose. What an artist creates is not a lie, and neither is the false self.

The research I've read says all of Cluster B lacks empathy (the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes to know how they are feeling) and I absolutely agree with it. Sam Vaknin makes it very clear narcissists lack it. The HPD literature I've read says they lack it and on and on. I can get you links if you want them?

No, thank you for your effort, though. I know that the information I've read and the experiences I've had negate that possibility. If you want to say I was feeling sympathy, and not empathy, that's fine. I went with those examples because those are the ones commonly used to point out the differences between empathetic and non-empathetic people. Cruelty to animals is a hallmark of sociopathic behaviour.

Noun
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

I made a decision a long time ago not to engage in conversations with men who required dictionaries to prove their points.

Rather than engage in the battle of the dueling definitions, let me just say that you are not in a position, since you apparently do not even think I exist, to decide whether what I was feeling was empathy or sympathy.

Cluster B's are mere shells of a human being since they cannot access their true personality.I never advocated they all be killed like your Christian church did for certain women back during the salem witch trials so I think you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself here.

I may be a mere shell of a human being, but I know when I'm wasting my time. I've explained what I thought was offensive, and why, and you continue to carry on this vein. As you wish.

You're both right... but each of you can't see the other's perspective; because neither of you is able to walk in each other's shoes. Both of you display a lack of empathy towards each other.

I just got off the phone with my former HPD lady... I called to thank her for the birthday card that came in the mail, and to thank her again for the thoughtful gift she gave me a couple of days ago. Tomorrow I'll change a fuse in her car, and then I'll hug her and tell her to take care of herself. It's the way I choose to be; because I'm blessed with the ability to make choices. I was born with a good brain, and had a nourishing childhood... she was not. So she can't help what she does; but I can help what I do.

It hurt me that she wasn't capable of having the kind of relationship that I need to have... and it saddens me that, most likely, she will never have a normal partnership with anyone.

That doesn't make her evil, or a vampire, or bad. She never chose to be the way she is, or to hurt me. Whatever happened to her - I know it's very real to her - and I know she wishes she was different.

I will continue to love her as a friend; because she is a good person. Her brain deceives her, and she's not able to remember things in a coherent way... so she often appears to lie, or otherwise be deceitful. She loved me very much, in a series of moments... but her brain couldn't put those moments together into something we call "object constancy". She would, if she could. But she can't, and I'm not going to hate her for that.

Sylvia Plath was a Borderline who wrote "The Bell Jar", and committed suicide at the age of 30... her writings reveal a lot of the turmoil of what it's like for someone who has a personality disorder.

In her journals she wrote about her behavioral problems, and how they were caused by her inability to trust her own memories. She said:

"With me, the present is forever, and forever is always shifting, flowing, melting. This second is life. And when it is gone, it is dead. But you can't start over with each new second, you have to judge by what is dead. It's like quicksand... hopeless from the start."

People with PDs can't remember all of their yesterdays the way that we "nons" can... so when you ask them a question, they can't remember what they answered last week, or if a past answer got them in trouble, or if the answer they want to give might get them laughed at.

So they take their best shot at what they hope will be an answer that people will accept. Essentially, they "...have to judge by what is dead."

I can't imagine how difficult that must be... to live in a perpetual moment. My brain lives in a lifetime of experiences that form the moment I'm in. My HPD friend has trouble remembering almost everything... I visit a BPD web site where they refer to it as CRS disease... Can't Remember $#%^.

None of that makes them evil. None of them asked to be that way, and all of them would change if they could.

showing them compassion or taking pity on them is what gets us HPD victims into trouble with them in the first place. They take it as a sign of weakness, as an opportunity for them to come back in and suck you dry, as a way of gaining your ATTENTION.

it seems impossible to show these creatures compassion in any genuine way. it's best to stay away from them.