What happens when someone with HPD gets old

Guest,

"Normal" constitutes a range, not some point of perfection.

I strongly disagree that the "vast majority" of abused children go on to have normal and productive adulthoods without a lot of work. Problems of all sorts dog many of these people. That is why abuse tends to run in families, and not occur spontaniously. There is also a great deal of comorbidity between child abuse and conditions such as bipolar. There is some thought that the brain structures themselves are changed by the abuse and/or that the condition is passed down. Have you looked at the suicide rates, employment history, income earned figures for people with bipolar vs. people without? Or to get back to the orignial point, people with serious abuse issues?

Furthermore I find that most of the HPD's I have known had/have no idea that there is anything wrong with them, so how would they formulate the need for therapy or intervention? If they cannot/have not formed that concept in themselves, they should be forced into some program? Where are we - 1934 Germany?

K....X,

Cluster B's know that murder is wrong, yes. But they are not able to make out the nature and structure of what makes them behave the way that they do. It might make them feel bad for how things turned out, but seldom does it keep them from repeating the pattern unless there is drug/therapy intervention. Which bears out my point, they are not capable for the most part in stopping and staying "stopped" from whatever it is that they do that is "abnormal". Very much like someone that keeps getting into co-dependant relationships. Where does it stop?

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps this group should be split into two, or contain warnings. You know, "MT - spiteful feelings about HPD's by victim of HPD". At least that way somebody just diagnosed with HPD doesn't come here, and find this vitriol spewed about like so much confetti.

Work on both sides needs to be done. Some crossover is probably a good thing. But those that have suffered from person "A" really have no right to take it out on person "B". To speak of as an historical artifact/example is one thing, that would imply a lot of processing has taken place already. But a HPD new to the concept should not be exposed to someone that is headlong into their rage/anger/get even/fu*k you period. When they are ready, then by all means, throw them into the shark tank. After all someone must suffer seems to be overall theme of the "sufferers".

There are many times many people that have suffered at the hands of people far more then any of you that I have spoken with here over the past few weeks. When you get over your rage for your personal situation is when you may actually take some deep steps onto the forgiveness portion of your healing paths. I do sincerely look forward to that point for all of you, because then is when you will be able to see that suffering is indeed universal, and HPD's themselves are just another group of people grappling with a tough issue, and not the fountainhead of your individual pain any longer.

Regards,
W

Sincefour,

Give me a break. I find it fascinating that you excuse the person with the problem saying they have little choice while you blame the victim of the behavior for having troube with anger etc. trying to heal from it. Recovering from abuse is possible, whether you are a perpetrator or a victim. I still say we all have adversities, abuse, rejection, neglect at some point in our pasts and it is our choice how we handle it. You say the victim has to be responsible for their anger, which is true, but likewise the perpetrator is equally responsible for how they have dealt with their own anger and disappointments. Taking your pain out on others or using drugs, alcohol etc. to numb the pain is the easy way out and damages that person and all those around them. One of the foundations of any recovery program is to take responsibility for the choices that have led you there and to apologize to those you have injured along the way. There are too many examples of people who have overcome abuse, addictions, etc. to say that because you were hurt, you are destined to, or justified in hurting others.

Dear Guest,

Since you do not accept that people with "normal" range backgrounds are more robust and able to deal with and get over hurts then people that have PD's or worse, I do not know what else I can say.

The society must take certain laws such as "do not kill others" as a staple and not make allow any slippage unless in case of severe mental illness or self defense is one thing. But in interpersonal relationships there are no laws, just two people trying to figure out if they fit. If one person is rigged such that they cannot fit, that is really too bad for them, and for the other person. What do you suggest? Putting them into re-education camps until you are satisfied?

Abuse is abuse, no doubt, you have been wronged, no doubt. But your rage alone is not going to cure these people. It isn't going to bring awareness to them in some divine flash. So, to be as simple as I can: while you are recovering, leave them alone. After you recover if you choose to interact with them in a helpful manner fine. But I think my earlier idea is best - split the group. I had a lot to recover from in my life, and it wouldn't have helped to be exposed to the wrath of those I had wronged at the wrong times. And you have no idea of when it is right or wrong for them. Just yourself. So act on behalf of yourself. But do not presume to know what is best for them. In fact given the attitude of the majority of the "victims" around here, I should think you should be kept away from them for some time - probably years. You might agree, unless you agenda is wrath. Then you will simply self-define yourselves by your behavior, which I question will show up as benign.

W

I did not say it wasn't easier for someone with a good childhood to make the right decisions in life, only that the fact that it is more difficult for some, doesn't mean they are not responsible for their choices. Following your logic, your mom's sexual abuser would only be legally, not morally responsible if he had been severly abused himself. You assume that my saying one is accountable for one's behavior=having wrath. That is not true. To say to someone that has a problem that they have a choice is actually freeing b/c then they realize that they do not have to be perpetual victims of their past. It gives them hope that they can change. That is what separates us from animals--having free will. Of course they cannot do this alone, I never said that either, but if someone knows right from wrong, they can reach out for help. That's why it is important that they realize that they can get better as long as they are willing to.

"Work on both sides needs to be done. Some crossover is probably a good thing. But those that have suffered from person "A" really have no right to take it out on person "B". To speak of as an historical artifact/example is one thing, that would imply a lot of processing has taken place already. But a HPD new to the concept should not be exposed to someone that is headlong into their rage/anger/get even/fu*k you period. When they are ready, then by all means, throw them into the shark tank. After all someone must suffer seems to be overall theme of the "sufferers"."

I don't want my HPD to suffer. I simply want justice.

Being able to sue her or legally force her into therapy would be that justice and prevent a whole trail of pain which she will certainly leave throughout her life and already has to a great extent.

I have no sympathy for her anymore because I told her in detail and with great care and kindness what I thought she had and she kind of admitted to me that I was right but I do not believe she is going in for treatment for that so again no sympathy from me to her. She deserves the emptiness that will find her one day when she can no longer use and manipulate people with her looks first and false love game second. All my sympathy goes towards HPD's that recognize they have a problem and want to change. HPD's that are not financially able to be treated but want to be treated have my sympathy but not my ex because she probably still thinks its ok doing what she's doing to guys even after all the trouble she has brought upon herself because of her actions.

The other victims whose posts I've read on this board don't seem to want their HPD's to suffer either but they have justifiable anger at what happened to them and the vast majority ask this board what has happened to them and the person they once were.

They are confused and lost and it is no surprise after having been put through something like this.

Only one guy I saw posted something like wanting to hurt his HPD really bad but then he caught himself and how far she had infected him with her sickness and I believe that guy also got help for his bad feelings.

"There are many times many people that have suffered at the hands of people far more then any of you that I have spoken with here over the past few weeks."

This is wrong of you to say as you don't know any of us or our full history and to what extent we have suffered at the hands of our HPD's and other things in life. I have lost many friends to accidental death and a parent and grandparents to cancer. All horrifically painful for me. I know what suffering is in full my friend.

"When you get over your rage for your personal situation is when you may actually take some deep steps onto the forgiveness portion of your healing paths. I do sincerely look forward to that point for all of you, because then is when you will be able to see that suffering is indeed universal, and HPD's themselves are just another group of people grappling with a tough issue, and not the fountainhead of your individual pain any longer."

The moral standard this society usually holds up for everyone to follow is that of the Christian God.

This God does not forgive anyone or save anyone from hell unless they first ask for forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

Though I do not believe in this god or any other man made god's I believe there is no forgiveness for the unrepentant.

So no I do not forgive my HPD for what she has done to me and forgiveness is not necessary to everyone's healing. Some people it may be important to forgive the unforgiveable but to me that is just pure madness.

If something clicks in my HPD's head and one day she gets therapy and afterwards is genuinely sorry for what she has done and gives me a real apology then and only then will I forgive her but for now my healing lies in helping inform as many men out there as possible to avoid HPD women and for men and women in general to be on the lookout for sociopaths of Cluster B trying to invade their private lives to use them which they will if allowed.

Guest,

Sure it is. Once they have realized that something is deeply wrong, then, it is best that they enter the healing path, and do the work they must do to be free, and to avoid hurting others.

A key point in deciding to do that is the understand they one has caused pain. I suggest that in most cases it is up to them in their day to day lives to realize it, not to already be on the healing path and be cauterized by the anger that the victims here have on occasion spewed. It is a delicate time, and the message delivered with an armoured fist could likely drive them away, and then who would be the better?

As usual, unless one is a law enforcement official, one should treat others the way they would want to be treated. Assuming a negative outcome from any given interaction (as defined by the individual themselves), simply walk away, and engage others elsewhere. Very seldom can rubbing a dogs nose in its own excrement succeed in anything other then trauma and confusion from the dog, not the desired behavioral change.

W

Sincefour,

For some people who have been victimized, it is vital for their healing to confront the person who did it, not so the perpetrator comes to their senses and decides they want to change, but so the victim stops being afraid of displeasing or upsetting their abuser. It is unfair to tell them that they have no right to do this. People with these disorders are very selfish and manipulate others into denying their own needs and putting their abuser's feelings first. At some point, you have to stop concerning yourself so much with not making the abuser "feel bad". One of the worst beatings I got from my dad growing up was when I told him he was wrong. His fists hurt, but I still remember that day fondly, because I finally stood up for my self worth. He had been born out of incest and had severe rejection issues because of this and lashed out at me, my siblings and my mom as a result. I understand why he is the way his is, but I do not excuse his behavior. For a long time I did, and so I was attracted to men just like him because I thought that was what I deserved. It was only after I realized that no matter what you've suffered yourself abusing others is never okay that I started to get better. Finally I have a healthy relationship with a great man. I still love and care about my father, but I realize that he is a sick and wounded man who chose to take his pain out on others. I realize I have a choice too, and so I am vigilant about not continuing this pattern in my own life.

Guest,

Is your perp here? Or is the "global" perp good enough for you?

I know very well what people with this disorder do, my mother was one, and it certainly rubbed off on me in many ways.

I have to stop concerning myself with not making the abuser "feel bad"? No sir. I hope that they do feel bad, but on their timetable, not yours. It is the highhanded and very much abusive moral superiority that you and other "victims" here exude, that drew me into this in the first place.

You realize that your father is sick and wounded. That is a very big step, I had a lot of trouble doing that while mine was alive. But I ask if your sensitivity on view for your father is equaled by your sensitivity to the difficulties that HPD's have? Either your words do not match your feelings, or, you have disperate feelings about the two.

My father was bipolar, abused and neglected as a child, was in a Nazi prison camp for 28 months. He also murdered his first wife, was sexually abusive of children and women, a drunk, a bully, a coward. Forgive - yes, Condone? No. I am not asking you to condone them, or even forgive them, I am asking that a way be made for them to make progress, that does not include being tarred and feathered by every person ever hurt by a HPD, or at least the ones early in their healing work that I have found here. Go haunt the one(s) that got you, leave the others to themselves, unless your intent is to help them heal, not give in to your own personal demons at their expense, and then call it justifed.

The stench of justification in service of your own pain reeks here. That is not healing for them, nor for you.

W

You insist on misunderstanding. I never said you don't be concerned with their feelings, just that you don't allow their hurt to make you deny your own. I've never demanded that my father change because I realize that that is his choice, not mine. The only reason I am honest with how his behavior affected me is to help myself. The more of your posts I read, the more I am convinced that you are the angry one here. Unlike you, I don't hope my father feels badly for what he did. I see the effects in his life and it is worse than anything I could ever wish on him. Maybe the reason why you cannot acknowledge the fact that no matter what is done to us, we do not have to do the same to others, is you don't think you can handle the anger in your own soul that would result. Easier to think your parents had no choice, than to realize they did and still treated you that way. Or maybe you want to excuse the fact that your mother's behavior has "rubbed off on you in many ways" instead of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. I think you need to deal with your own hostility instead of projecting it on all the other posters on this board.

Guest,

That's an interesting try at foisting the issues brought up here on someone besides you.

The simple premise is that you should heal yourself in a way that does not cause more problems for people suffering from HPD. You insist on protecting your hurt feelings and justifying them using various forms of arguments where you are always the one that is right or has been hurt.

I have never insisted that my anger or healing or whatever should come at a price to others, while you have - time and again.

Do what you want, you don't answer to me. When HPD's achieve the moral equivalence of your father in your own mind, you will likely have a different take on this then you do now.

Clear sight and compassion to you,
W