'There is a lack of research...'

whatever book I read, what it says is
'there is a lack of research about HPD...'

so the thing is, I can't find an answer.
When I have a question about math, there are books that solve my question and make me feel I got an answer
but HPD,
every books are rather stupid and say all the same things,
outward objection of HPD
Problem of PD interpreration is, therapists believe what pds say, than what they really think
I just feel lack of answer for my question
there is no research
do the researches you researchers! damn.

about 'details' related part.
when i speak to therapist, I often intentially do not talk about details bc I don't feel the need to, or since therapists did'nt ask about it, but then they think I am inable to express stuffs in details
sometimes may be it's naturally that way, but in often times I just don't feeel the need to make someone understand, idk.

yyyyy -

At least in the culture I live in, it's possible that the topic is a 'hot potato' that many researchers would rather not get involved with. My culture greatly values extroverts, actors, flirting, being sexually provocative, being overtly expressive, more... You even wrote about the likes of Marylin Monroe recently, and the fact is she had become a kind of iconic star, even though it ended tragically for her and likely painfully for others she got involved with as well.

BPD is easier to acknowledge as a problem because of the depression and suicidal issues that are often involved. Likewise ASPD due to the criminal activity that is often an issue. But even NPD types are often fine with who they are, some are very successful, and except for the negative effects on others, many feel they are fine as is.

HPD though is tougher, because it's fair to ask, is she just being sexually expressive (increasingly encouraged in my society)? or is there a problem? Again though it's often not the person with HPD who feels there is anything wrong. I think many researchers are afraid of backlash though, along the lines of 'you are just trying to repress females'; yes that's not politically correct to suggest, but I do think it's a very real possibility.

^ That's true. For many the decline of traditional society meant: hedonism.
So in part because they are often attractive, HPD women have the dubious distinction of being the most easily accepted PDs (and therefore the most enabled) by the larger Non-HPD culture, which is itself tilting towards a general epidemic in narcissistic traits.

In my opinion HPD hasn't been researched too much, simply because the larger society doesn't have as much interest:
(1) HPD women have always been accepted by masculinist men, who think HPDs are thrilling hot stripper-like women, subservient to the attention of heterosexual men (i.e., 'what's wrong with that?')
(2) or, because HPD was rejected by the first-wave feminists, because they rejected Freud and the earlier tradition of research into female hysteria as sexist (i.e., hot stripper-like women are just a social construction, the result of a patriarchal society, not the result of a so-called 'Personality Disorder").
(3) or, because HPDs are accepted by post-feminists as powerful women, who have the potential to equally struggle with, and even dominate men (i.e., what's wrong with that?').

Over the past century, HPD women, in their desire for attention and validation, have learned to fit into these cultural niches, especially (1 - M. Monroe, for example), and more recently (2 - any one of several popular female personas - Anna Nicole Smith, perhaps?) Since modern HPDs function in today's culture of greater narcissism, they themselves probably have a more powerful, narcissistic component to them than their earlier sisters did - maybe why it's hard to tell some modern HPD's apart from NPD's).

The final result of this relative cultural acceptance (or ambiguity), at least in North American Psychology/Psychiatry, seems to be the removal of HPD as a full strength PD from the DSM series. Which ironically leaves HPD women themselves at a loss, when they are contemplating self-awareness or recovery, especially during the depression that happens after a relationship failure -the situation for HPD men just as vague, if not more so.
Hopefully, this forum does its part to inform both HPDs and Nons, and serves as an inspiration for self-awareness and recovery, for both male and female HPDs.

In contrast, ASPD has been researched a lot and will never go away. It's in the general interest of the larger culture to understand people with ASPD, because of their perceived potential to do harm. Even the fascination most normal people have with psychopathy and crime and violence is adaptive, in the sense that this apparent morbid interest also has the latent effect of teaching normal people about predatory behavior - i.e., what and whom to avoid. Unfortunately, the desire to change among ASPDs isn't as common.

BPDs are usually less attractive by conventional standards than HPDs, so no one 'carries' them, and they have more objectionable behavior which the majority of people find offensive, disruptive, and frightening - almost as scary as ASPD behavior. Plus, the BPDs desire to harmonize relationships (so as to avoid abandonment) segues itself more readily into the acceptance of Non norms, therefore their commitment to change comes easier, and they development empathy more readily (speaking in general, of course).
In other words, it's in the interests of the wider culture to understand BPD, therefore there is a lot of funding for research. And the BPDs themselves are more easily motivated to change.
Which probably explains why BPDs have greater recovery rates, in comparison with HPD or ASPD.

Marilyn Monroe was BPD and she was attrractive...

orion -

Yes, agreed on your expansion on the reasons why researchers may be avoiding the topic. I'd even add that more generally, HPD types, NPD types, and even Psychopathic types (they're not all serial killers, but think of James Bond and other ruthless heroes as an example) are glamorized in much of our fictional media, and in some cases musical icons. It probably isn't helping any that there is a certain amount of social reinforcement, even pressure, to behave similarly, to be 'someone' of value given the tendency of people to compare their lives to icons, and easily feel valueless by comparison.

Crystal wrote

Marilyn Monroe was BPD and she was attrractive..

.

Although I've heard Monroe described as BPD, I've more often heard of her described as HPD...and IMO the case for her being HPD was more convincing. She certainly knew how to act in a seductive manner, she never could seem to settle down with one guy, and she seemed like the small child inside the big starlet - attracted to powerful men (like DiMaggio, JFK).

It is frequently said that HPDs are the most physically attractive (by the standards of their culture) of all the Cluster B's. Of course, this is a generalization...some BPDs might be more attractive than some HPDs. Using Millon's subtypes for BPD and HPD...within HPD there is the Appeasing subtype, a more dependent person (also with obsessive compulsive behaviors), vs. your classic Vivacious HPD, who is considered attractive and narcissistic (i.e., V. Leigh/Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind). So, the Impulsive BPD woman (with histrionic behaviors) might be, or come off as, more attractive than an Appeasing HPD. But like, they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and beauty is only skin deep.

There is also a different quality to the behavior of a BPD vs. an HPD - in general active BPDs are more dependent, fawning, desperate, and heavy splitters; while active HPDs are usually more seductive, confident, and self-centered. For example, though both are film characters played by actresses that are probably fairly normal women, think of Glen Close in "Fatal Attraction," vs. Sharon Stone in "Basic Instinct." I would consider both of their characters to be attractive. Close is the classic BPD Intimacy Seeking - turned Rejected Stalker, while Stone apparently a female psychopath with histrionic behaviors (i.e., Millon's "Risk-Taking ASPD"? - consider the famous police interview scene, in which she isn't wearing underwear and she performs some seductive exhibitionism, to manipulate the cops). If, for the sake of argument she wasn't the murderer she is implied to be in the film, Stone's character would be the perfect Disingenuous Histrionic.

Interesting that according to R. Hare, psychopathy is most closely related to HPD (and NPD). But to most people, BPD, HPD, and NPD are similar in many ways, which is why you'll read in one place that Monroe and A.N. Smith were BPD, in another that they were HPD, and in yet another that they were NPD.

Practically speaking, it's all just differing combinations of the three dimensions common to all Cluster B PDs: (1) dissociation, (2) narcissism/lack of empathy, and (3) grandiosity, with no two people exactly the same.

X Dude wrote

Yes, agreed on your expansion on the reasons why researchers may be avoiding the topic. I'd even add that more generally, HPD types, NPD types, and even Psychopathic types (they're not all serial killers, but think of James Bond and other ruthless heroes as an example) are glamorized in much of our fictional media, and in some cases musical icons. It probably isn't helping any that there is a certain amount of social reinforcement, even pressure, to behave similarly, to be 'someone' of value given the tendency of people to compare their lives to icons, and easily feel valueless by comparison.

There is some adaptive reason why us everyday normal people are so fascinated with drama, especially violence. Like why did our ancestors sit around campfires at night and tell ghost stories, or stories about fierce animals, and the hunters who killed them? Probably because deep down we are all afraid. So telling scary stories masters anxiety and tension, which makes you more able to survive when real danger shows up, plus in telling or hearing stories about predators (animal or human) or brave warriors, you are also being educated in their qualities, which you might need to recognize or draw upon if you suddenly have to fight them in real life.
Re 'psychopaths in service of the people,' way before The Dirty Dozen there was Vlad III, the Transylvanian who terrified and turned back the Ottoman Turks when they saw thousands of their comrades impaled on stakes as they came across the Danube, attempting to convert Romania and who knows how much of Europe to Islam. For his gruesome habits he is the origin of the western European vampyre - and the Romanian national hero.

So I guess we are all primed for dramatic, often violent stories, films, and songs. The rest is just somebody marketing it, and making money.

sometimes non's fascination with and desire to mimic pd behaviour annoys me though because I am compelled to act the way I do. it's not a choice.

they see the surface but not the impulses, strong emotions, and sometimes pain that drives the behaviour.

crystal_richardson_ wrote:sometimes non's fascination with and desire to mimic pd behaviour annoys me though because I am compelled to act the way I do. it's not a choice.

they see the surface but not the impulses, strong emotions, and sometimes pain that drives the behaviour.

I thought it is PDs who are impaired in empathy and as a result can not put themselves in another person's mind and empathize with the other's feelings... (impulses, strong emotions, and sometimes pain that drives the behavior)...
not nons...
I still think it is PDs... and there is no lack of research or scientific studies to back me up.

Some of the non's fascination with PDs is productive - studying errors provides important vantage point for understanding normal... in details.

Non's desire to mimic pd behavior... I am not sure what you are talking about, but still...
little wonder you feel annoyed - pd behaviors are very annoying regardless of from who they are coming... Hmmm, I agree, they are extremely annoying when coming from nons, but luckily it is relatively rare occasion...

'There is a lack of research...' on personality disorders ?
lack is a very relative term...
Maybe there is a lack, but there is much more researched than I can possibly learn in my lifetime...

The other day, I was reading a book about psychopathology and culture. I was reading the section on personality disorders, and I was extremely impressed. There were in depth looks at how the patients behave and how in some cultures, that behavior is normal and should not be diagnosed. I was very excited to read this author's take on HPD. And want to know what she said? I'm paraphrasing, but this is about it:

"HPD is characterized by sexual forwardness, attention seeking, and being preoccupied with appearance. This disorder is incredibly sexist and proves that psychology has only come so far. There is no sure-fire way to pin point a culture where this is accepted, as being a woman, and being confident in sexuality, and taking pride in appearance, are becoming increasingly approved by society."

Okay that pisses me off. HPD is characterized by INAPPROPRIATELY seductive, attention-seeking behavior. INAPPROPRIATE. That means the person resorts to being seductive and attention seeking in situations that do not warrant seductive or attention seeking behavior. It's a maladaptive coping strategy.

I also do not like the idea that HPD's have to be more physically attractive. In my personal definition, I say that they are attractive and provocative. Attractiveness can and usually is just as much psychological as it is physical or superficial. Provocative behavior is a better word than seductive, IMO, because for one thing, seductive behavior is provocative, but provocative behavior is not always seductive. Provocative behavior is done with a reaction in mind, which is where the HPD gets satifaction--in the reaction, while seductive behavior wants a specific reaction (not that I'm saying seductive behavior is uncommon.).

My therapist says the reason there's no research on HPD, is because insurance companies fund studies on disorders that cost them money. HPD has the lowest price-tag on it, because its sufferers are not profoundly self-harming or suicidal, and its sufferers do not act out profoundly enough to take tax dollars away for jail-time. In disorders related to HPD; BPD costs insurance companies money for in-patient care, often having to check multiple clinics due to rules such as "no more than 2 Borderlines on a floor" because BPD is linked with high maintenance; ASPD and NPD both take up tax-dollars in jail time, or time spent in-patient or out-patient. DPD has a higher price tag than HPD because of the high amounts of psychotherapy it requires, plus in-patient care. HPD is rarely, if ever seen in-patient (and when it is, it's typically not the principle diagnosis.) but when it is, they are usually just as much of a hassle as the borderline; the only difference being that the HPD will cause a ruckus in the company of other patients.

wow....I never thought of that reason but that seems self-evident. ya.