Questions About Relationships From Nons

Hi Truth,

Thanks for answering, I just wanted to be more specific about something. I read some of Masterson's books, and the way he treats pwNPD. And he explains that when patients work through their narcissism, they also often find in themselves a passion for something (or activities) that were dormant, and that end up being expressions of their true self (it was always there but they didn't dare to dive in since they had to be the best at something else),is this something you can relate to, if you don't mind me asking?

Après L Orage wrote:Thanks for answering, I just wanted to be more specific about something. I read some of Masterson's books, and the way he treats pwNPD. And he explains that when patients work through their narcissism, they also often find in themselves a passion for something (or activities) that were dormant, and that end up being expressions of their true self (it was always there but they didn't dare to dive in since they had to be the best at something else),is this something you can relate to, if you don't mind me asking?

I can't say I've noticed anything. I'm not sure I'm in touch with my TS as much as I should be. I focused more on retraining the "capabilities" of the FS. Maybe the closest thing is music. I was never musically inclined or expressive. But, I always wanted to learn to play guitar. I bought one and have enjoyed it.

In the past I would have been impatient and strove for immediate perfection. It should come to me quickly, and I would move on to some other accomplishment. Now it's more qualitative. It's pleasurable to make sounds and the emotional chords they strike. It's kind of soothing in a way it wouldn't have been as part of the "march" to accomplishment.

I think that's more related to me being "more comfortable in my own skin." I can sit with myself. I don't get bored or anxious (as much). I don't have a constant drive to prepare for something else (be somewhere else, do something else, be someone else.).

I find myself more aware and "in the moment" when I do things. I'm more aware and appreciative of the details of what I do, finessing the subtleties. I don't know how to describe the difference except that things used to be a "march" for me. Grudgingly pushing something out while over-complicating it, making it larger than it needs to be. It feels more artistic. I can't think of an example, but it's like the difference between "brute force" and interest in subtleties. Hand crafted versus just "done! what's next?" More enjoyment in the process.

But, no, I haven't noticed a new passion. It could be due to being older and retired. I imagine younger self-awares feel a pressure to redefine themselves. I'm just glad to know why my life was the way it was, and that I'm not facing the angry senility that wouldn't have been far down the road.

That is exactly what I was talking about. It does not have to be a life defining experience, rather something that feels good or fulfilling. So good job, Truth!

Also I am just wondering if you telling yourself that you are older and retired etc. is not a way to protect yourself against potential disappointments from taking risks? Cause that is certainly something a lot of nons do as well.

Après L Orage wrote:That is exactly what I was talking about. It does not have to be a life defining experience, rather something that feels good or fulfilling.

I may be suggestible, but I think you're right. I described the contrast between then and now, how I would have been driven analytically to learn guitar. More like "middle A is 440 hz -- learn to recognize it." A more mechanical, logical approach like Star Trek's Spock learning to play. I was always dissuaded by two things: that it didn't come easy (everything should come easy to me, I should have latent skill like a rock star) and the audible sound made me self-conscious that my imperfections would be heard by others..

What's different now is that I found how an electric guitar (without amp) is loud enough to hear myself (and there are little inexpensive preamps to listen with headphones). I'm still self-conscious, so that helps.

But, what's different is that I would have never gotten into the emotional resonance. That would have made me uncomfortable, like not the kind of person I want to be. "That's not going to lead anywhere but the funeral part of my existence. Must continue the march! Middle A = 440hz. Learn to recognize it as a skill." But, I also think this crossed into the self-consciousness too. Even if I "let myself go" and feel something from the different chords, I certainly wouldn't want it projected audibly for others to hear/feel. That would "not lead anywhere" 100x more!

What's different now isn't just that I can play some chords and think about the emotions they evoke, how their order or transition has emotional connection which seems to be universal. It's fun to make a pleasant sound or put a couple together. It's not "playing a song" but an instrument. It's more a connection with the instrument than accomplishing something (being something).

It's like a part of me exists now that didn't. A month ago I thought about how that existence reminds me of the end of the movie Minority Report. The three empaths are disconnected from the machine, living in a cabin on a small island off Seattle/Vancouver. Experiencing life differently, more relaxed (even though you'd think laying in water all day would be relaxing, it was their mind connected to something which prevented them from living life as themselves.).

There's a part of me that's more "here" like that. More peaceful, not plugged into something preoccupied with the past and future. I think that's what comes out with playing guitar.

But, the self-conscious aspect is still there. If it was an acoustic guitar I would feel self conscious playing chords and experimenting. But, it wouldn't be because of the mistakes, but due to how it's more like connecting emotionally to the sounds. Like I would be projecting emotions for all to hear.

Makes sense.

It's like a part of me exists now that didn't. A month ago I thought about how that existence reminds me of the end of the movie Minority Report. The three empaths are disconnected from the machine, living in a cabin on a small island off Seattle/Vancouver. Experiencing life differently, more relaxed (even though you'd think laying in water all day would be relaxing, it was their mind connected to something which prevented them from living life as themselves.).

I wonder if other PDs can relate to that?

I had a good friend who was really obsessed with her looks, talked about wanting to start a non-profit even though she has no experience working in them or starting one (did the minimal when wanting to do this, eventually gave up), has not worked at all for around four years even though she does not have any physical/medical problems that are preventing her from working, believed she could do things that she was never trained in (i.e., sex addiction therapy, even though she has nevr done any type of therapy), moves from place to place, moves on from people or groups, seems to exploit others, lies, manipulates others to get her needs met, cannot take critial feedback, has poor boundaries, never takes responsibility for her behaviors (even when she hurts someone, blames the person for her behavior towards them), seems to have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old, is very secretive, admits to having problems around intimacy, and always brings the conversation back to her.

I knew her for about three years. The first year was a lot of fun. She seemed honest, genuine, and sincere. I started to have deeper feelings for her. I was honest about this, but I never got a clear and upfront response from her. Then I caught her lying to me. When I confronted her she refused to take any responsibility. In fact, in order to deflect responsibility she lied some more. I forgave her and tried to move on. About a year later I caught her lying again. The same pattern repeated itself, but this time her response to me was disorganized and immature (i.e., basically used the defense of "I know you are, but what am I?") This was the last straw, so I cut off all contact.

I do not think she could be clinically diagnosed with NPD, though she does seem to have some deep Narcissitic traits. I just want some feedback because I feel really confused and used.

Notyaoming wrote:I do not think she could be clinically diagnosed with NPD, though she does seem to have some deep Narcissitic traits. I just want some feedback because I feel really confused and used.

To the extent she is pathologically narcissistic, you're just an object. You exist(ed?) to mirror her. Pointing out her lies is being a bad mirror. The confusion about who's who suggests projection ("I know you are, but what am I?"), which narcissism is steeped in.

Narcissism is entirely about projection. Consider the Greek myth of Narcissus as reality. It's really amazing how this personality was known three thousand years ago with such clarity. Look at the entire story and the related characters (Hubris, Nemesis, Echo). I wrote something in this thread about pride and shame at the root of narcissism.

You'll want to follow the link to the Echo part because that's what afflicts nons, IMO. They end up in a dysfunctional "love" like that, serving as a mirror to re-vivify the image the N is in love with. The echo(er) is loved only to the extent it gives the illusion the actual love object (the reflection) is alive. The echo dwindles into no other value than that, a residual echo in the N's mind. I call it "polishing the mirrors" (the historic value of past obects, embellishing the Confabulation, the inner "movie" the N views the world through).

I think it's that asymmetry which is the most abusive to nons. They keep calling out, believing the N plays by the same rules, exists with the same (human) needs. But, we don't. We take the response to polish our mirrors, to be excited briefly as the reflection moved and looked alive! It just drains the non -- the non never understanding they were responding to non-human needs. There was an asymmetry with someone incapable of loving (more than their reflection, or the value another adds to the reflection). It's very objectified like this. It's not two "people" existing together with the similar levels of emotional and personality development.

You're dealing with a 4yo in an adult body which has learned to "get by" at others' expense. It is a believable facsimile of a functional person. It seems very real. But, counterfeit at the same time. Because of the constant projection, the non feels its they who were counterfeit.

Some nons suffer greatly due to this hidden asymmetry. But, worse, the N's condition tends to attract partners with their own maladaptive traits. For example, Borderlines are frequently paired with Ns. Someone with no sense of identity who needs it from someone with a strong sense of identity. Or, a co-dependent, avoidant person will often find themselves with an N.

My point is, some of the confusion you feel could result from your own traits. If you take it as an opportunity you might find more understanding of yourself. Not that it was your fault, but things that might affect relationships with other nons.

Après L Orage wrote:Hi Truth,

Thanks for answering, I just wanted to be more specific about something. I read some of Masterson's books, and the way he treats pwNPD. And he explains that when patients work through their narcissism, they also often find in themselves a passion for something (or activities) that were dormant, and that end up being expressions of their true self (it was always there but they didn't dare to dive in since they had to be the best at something else),is this something you can relate to, if you don't mind me asking?

I know this wasn't directed to me, so I hope you don't mind me replying to this, because it resonates.

There's something about creativity that is very close to spirituality. Maybe it is spirituality.
I definitely think in a narcissist, the TS comes out in creativity and through art, whether it's music, painting, writing, whatever. Lots of narcissists make beautiful art, and I think that's where the TS has an outlet. There's a lot of bad art out there too, but it's bad because it's made by the FS and/or made for a gain, such as financial compensation. That's not real art. Good art is always the means, never the end.

I know when I write (and I always made it a goal of mine to be 100% honest in my posts--I probably only succeed about 80% of the time though lol) I feel different. Emotions are elicited, and I feel things I don't feel in everyday life. I've been brought to this point in my journey where I became self aware and feel something profound in me has shifted. And it's all because a year ago I decided to journal publicly. My post "Letter from a Narcissist's True Self" was very emotional, very hard for me to write--and I wasn't even self aware yet! But I was getting there. And others felt it too...and have told me it helped them...including nons trying to understand their Ns better. I'm not tooting my own horn by saying this (how narcissistic of me ) , but in writing that post, my TS was somehow able to get through all the noise, and I didn't even know I was already beginning to heal from a disorder I didn't even know I had. My trip down the rabbit hole wasn't too far behind.

And, although I'm not musically gifted, I love to sing. I sing all the time in the car, and it comes from my heart, and I feel the music. So I get what TTL is saying about playing guitar; for me singing serves the same purpose.

I was recently acquainted with a young man who is a very talented singer-songwriter. He says he has NPD and tells me normally, his behavior is very shallow, entitled, and self-serving. I can't say whether his self-dx is correct since I am not a mental health professional but I suspect he's probably assessed himself correctly. But the music he makes can take your breath away--his voice is full of feeling and so are the lyrics he writes. His music can move me to tears. I believe, in watching his Youtube videos, that this young man is showing a side rarely seen--his TS. He wants to heal. I told him to keep creating, performing, feeling the music.

The TS is where our truth is, and the artistic urge is all about truth.

I think most of us have some talent where we can allow the TS to shine. Even if you don't have an visual or performing arts talent, you can probably find one thing where you can "feel your soul" doing something else, perhaps a sport or a craft. Something you love doing that makes you feel good, centers you, gives you peace from all the noise the FS is creating in our heads all the time. You can tell that voice to shut up; it doesn't have to be yammering at you all the time; it doesn't have to be yammering at you at all. Creativity can tune in that radio station so you can hear the words without all the static from interfering stations (the FS). You just need to find something that you feel your heart is really in, something that brings beauty of some kind to the world. God knows, the world needs more of that.

Ladywith3cats wrote:There's something about creativity that is very close to spirituality. Maybe it is spirituality. I definitely think in a narcissist, the TS comes out in creativity and through art, whether it's music, painting, writing, whatever.

I agree. Even when I was closed off with my work, I treated programming, system design and problem solving as an art. There was an elegant solution I had to have, not just solve a problem. It had to be the answer. That's how I got supply.

But, it's funny because the "art" was actually about making the world orderly, controlling, impromptu mastery. I enjoyed working with (supporting/maintaining) my creation more than being faced with a new problem to solve masterfully, the risk of imperfection, the hours I would put into it just to make it elegant (when others would "get it done" and go home, keep work separate from their personal life). I must have been good because that's the only reason I can see why I was kept *despite* my "difficult" nature.

I said I always had a desire to be musical. It was a desire to be more spontaneous, and emit sounds that could stir something--to communicate that way. But, whenever I approached something like that, it turned into mechanical pursuit of knowledge. Not a free expression.

I think it reflects how far I was from my true self, or awareness of the disintegrated (inauthentic) nature of my self.

I've come to the conclusion that I existed with an emotional template that was always just below the surface and ready to interpret anything. It was part of the hypervigilance. Reactive. It was like a 4yo's emotional level. Independent emotions, I could only process 2-3 at a time. I think this (and what I perceived to be fear of abandonment) made me identify strongly with BPD.

It seems like that emotional template was my conscience. Depending on how the emotions responded is how I knew if something was good or bad. It wasn't cognitively experiential. It was subconsciously experiential/reactive. (I think that's the difference in empathy now vs. before, referring to @nimply's empathy thread earlier today.).

After realizing (or accepting) what I do, that emotional template changed from simmering beneath the skin to boiling/raging on the surface (in my mind). For 2 years it was like that, all the time. I could only handle 2-3 at a time. All the emotions independent and competing, like I imagine a 4yo's emotions would be if overloaded that way.

Now that's become more in the past, more a part of my conscience (referential memory/emotion). The way you know not to put your hand on the stove. You don't go through life anticipating touching another stove. The thought of touching the stove doesn't produce anxiety. You just have that connection which is appropriately spontaneous to the circumstance at hand.

That's the difference I see between music then and now. If I tried to let my emotions flow through music then, it would have been a cacophony of sound followed by smashing the instrument like Peter Townsend's famous incident (then burning down the hotel I'm staying at).

Now it's more "here." More sensitive, spontaneous.

Truth too late wrote:That's the difference I see between music then and now. If I tried to let my emotions flow through music then, it would have been a cacophony of sound followed by smashing the instrument like Peter Townsend's famous incident (then burning down the hotel I'm staying at).

Now it's more "here." More sensitive, spontaneous.

I hear you. For years...YEARS!...I couldn't write. This past year and a half has been the first time in my life I haven't in under the thrall of a higher spectrum (malignant) narcissist.

As a child I wrote all the time. I drew pictures too. I remember my father bringing home these little blank booklets in different colors with lined paper in them. There were about 50 of them, tied up in rubber bands. I used to write little stories and illustrate them. I could spend hours doing this.

OMG! I just remembered something! One day...I think I was about 7 or 8....I started to look for my illustrated stories, and couldn't find them. They were very personal to me, like diaries. They were for my eyes only (my avoidant traits had already set in) . I was very upset by this but couldn't tell my parents because then they'd be looking for them and they'd KNOW.

I looked everywhere for them, and finally found them in my father's filing cabinet in a folder wth my name on it. I was horrified. He stole my private creations from me! I felt so violated, my boundaries had been invaded. I remember stealing them back and destroying them.
It was as if I wanted to annihilate myself...my true self.

After that I seemed to lose my passion for drawing, although I continued to write. I didn't say anything to him about him stealing those booklets because to do so would be to invite criticism and shame. I knew instinctively he liked them, but I didn't even want to hear anything good about them. The stuff in them was just too personal. There'd be too much shame.

I wrote a novel in 2003. No one wanted to publish it. It sucked. I still have it but it's embarrassing to read because of how bad it is. I know why though; that novel came from my FS--I was trying too hard to be "a writer," to make an impression, instead of being authentic.

And now...I've done a 180 from when I'd hide my little illustrated books and was so horrified they were discovered: posting the most personal stuff possible for total strangers on the Internet to see (under an assumed name, of course). It's like I'm trying to redeem my shame, somehow. I don't know; it's very hard to explain.

After being in my abusive marriage, I thought I'd lost all my ability to do anything at all. I'd sit down and try to write something, and....I couldn't do it. I even thought I'd lost my intelligence. I was marking time until death. I felt stupid, dead. But I didn't care either...or thought I didn't care. I couldn't feel anything at all. My emotions were gone.

I was wrong, so wrong about all that.