Questions About Relationships From Nons

know1yourself wrote:Now when you mention he is trying to see his reflection, does this mean he wants to validate himself through me?

Validate's not really the right word. I didn't need validation because that's like depending on another for something about who I am. Never. I define myself. But, in a subconscious way, I loved myself for something I wasn't. Something I could be.

If I felt someone were validating me, I'd take that as an insult. Nobody paints the Sistine Chapel but me.

But, that view of myself needed "reinforcement" through others. I wasn't confident it existed. I needed others (through their presence in my life, their responsiveness to my needs, needs expressed through unpredictable and unrelated priorities, obsessions, acting out) to act like I am who I *know* I am. It really is the Sistine Chapel and not that rundown 24-hour marriage joint down the street.

If you read the Greek myth of Narcissus, the role of Echo, Nemesis and hurbis. It's really all right there. Be aware: you may have to dig through some Wiki pages. It's not a tight description in one place. But, if you read all those pages, it may pop out at you. It's Narcissus gazing into the pond at his own reflection, looking for that fabulous him that he's in love with. He's cursed to that existence because he shunned the love of Echo.

Not just shunned because of his infatuation with himself, but he had contempt and gratification (hubris) because of her disability. Her disability didn't matter. He would have found anything (and everything) wrong with her because he loved himself and she wasn't him.

Her disability itself was the result of a curse. She could only repeat the last words she heard. She suffered pining her life away for him as she watched him fade into an early death resulting from loving himself exclusively.

However, her curse played into his curse. As he spoke into the pond, asking "do you love me?" Echo on the side would do all she could do: repeat the last words she heard: "Do you love me?" Narcissus' image spoke to him. It had the same question he had. All he had to do was prove it.

Echo dwindled into nothing more than an echo, unable to tell Narcissus how she felt. Narcissus died young knowing he could never have himself the way he wanted. Never distinguishing the life he thought he saw in his reflected image was actually Echo, still trying.

When your ex hoovered you, he was speaking into the pond, looking for some indication it's not just him he's looking at. He's casting you as Echo. You're confused whether to tell him how you really feel (which is what he wants to hear from his reflection, as confirmation of his projection), or to be quiet and let his lover stand silent before him.

Whatever you do is not about you. It's about him and his reflection. That's why I think a neutral expression of "you had me, but because you love only yourself, you lost me" would cause a divide by zero. When my reflection spoke to me like that, it was all over. Giant shards of glass raining down.

It has to be short, honest, unemotional (except you pining for him, the true Echo). Something that can't be played into the Narrative which is used to filter reality. No arguing, reviving past events, nothing. A funeral. That's all. Then no contact.

But, he's young. You can definitely plant a seed (which it sounds like you have). Eventually, he will get it. Deep inside (if he's pathological) he knows something's wrong. The seeds might give him a way out before it gets too bad. Maybe in 10 years instead of 20. You'll probably never know.

Hi Truth,

Remember I told you I sent my bf an apology message. I waited a week with NC and he sent me this today.

What do you make of it, "You don't have to be so hard on yourself. I need my space right now. Will speak with you when I am able x"

Katie35 wrote:What do you make of it, "You don't have to be so hard on yourself. I need my space right now. Will speak with you when I am able x"

It sounds like he's feeding the Koi.



Giving you something to revive your hopes -- while it still being about him.

"Don't take it so hard (that you're such a lousy mirror), *I* need time. Enjoy the meal."

(I know you don't want to be dissuaded. But, the longer-term solution for you is to figure out why you don't want to be dissuaded -- and move on.).

Hi Truth,

I understand what you're saying. It isn't that I disagree with you. What you're saying is clearly right most of the time but I think it may also be more nuanced. He's an older narc remember and before he has taken a whole year out to try and get to terms with himself. He did it in a way that may sound somewhat bizarre in that he undertook occult meditation.( It basically involves getting up every morning and doing salutations to the sun and having certain thought processes you follow to try and self-reflect.) It's quite a commitment to undertake. He obviously has looked for some kind of change in himself. (This period was after the death of a gf he nursed through a brain tumour who later died, they were engaged.) Would a narc normally nurse someone like that?

Because he was raised a very religious catholic (although he rebelled and is lapsed now) I believe he does get a lot of guilt. I believe this is why he followed an 'occult root'. Many catholics are drawn to it because it's so ritualistic. There isn't much talk on this forum (or maybe there is and I haven't seen it) about the effects of a religious upbringing on a narc. All the catholic men I have dated have been so moulded by their catholic upbringing. It's incredible.

He may be NPD or just straight forward Narc- it's hard to know but it gets complicated because everyone everyone varies in how it manifests. I've been amazed how many characteristics there are in common between Ns- hence why I suppose it can be classified as a disorder- but I think in his terms that message was a big effort for him.

It's complicated because I love him. I feel very bonded on him. To be honest, I have got myself so anxious that when I received the message I was relieved but it also made me very nervy. I think my nerves are quite shattered.

I am going to speak to a therapist. I decided that's a condition to myself of seeing him again. Even though his reply is self-centred in another way I think it's straightforward. I replied to him 'that's fine x' so I tried to stay neutral. I am listening to you carefully as you seem very bright. I think the thing that you may not understand if you don't feel you can experience real intimacy, is that for a woman- when she is very bonded, it is v different from a man in love. It is a very deep rooted feeling for women which can be very difficult to resist because it is just so inbuilt psychologically for women.

I think this is a good article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/10 ... of-it.html

Katie35 wrote:I am going to speak to a therapist. I decided that's a condition to myself of seeing him again.

That's a great idea. The whole "dances with wolves" thing (sun woshipping, trying to hear from himself through the Ouija board...) it sounds a little like acting out his grandiosity. It could be part of his returning to earth. But, if his return is as splendid as his ascension, that could be a shallow, short-lived return to reality.

I've forgotten if he's self-aware. If so, have you recommended this forum? If he's not, then it's pointless waiting for him to see his reflection in the sun.

Katie35 wrote:I think the thing that you may not understand if you don't feel you can experience real intimacy, is that for a woman- when she is very bonded, it is v different from a man in love. It is a very deep rooted feeling for women which can be very difficult to resist because it is just so inbuilt psychologically for women.

I think I understand because I could treat hoovering that way. I felt bonded to what was a long-gone object from whom I craved supply (for long periods).

There are a lot of bonded nons here, you're not the only one. It's not unusual for traits to attract traits. You could have something peculiar to you which makes your bonding (or wound) more permanent. But, maybe not. It's good you'll talk to someone about how reasonable your attraction is to him.

But I've got a question for you Truth. You've clearly had a lot of therapy and you have actually shown so much kindness and sensitivity to me and many other on this board.

Don't you think in some ways you are kind and are being empathetic? I mean, have you ever felt love for a pet, an animal? Is your sensitivity because you use your intellect to understand or it seems to me, you do feel sympathy for the non here.

Your reply made me laugh a lot! 'Dances with wolves' haha.

Is humour an emotion?

I wouldn't ever show him this board it's been such a help to me, I want to (selfishly!) keep it for myself.

I've been reading a lot about Schema Therapy. Do you have experience of this? My friends recommend a more present-oriented therapy e.g. CBT . I see Schema Therapy referred to a lot in the treatment of Narcissism but I wonder if it's more or less practical than CBT. More or less discursive. I wouldn't like a treatment where I talked but received little response (e.g. Rogerian).

-- Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:51 pm --

ps How do you know your Hoovering wasn't genuinely missing the person? There's a lot of jargon/ language around the discussion of these personality issues and I wonder if it isn't a bit more complicated than that. It's hard to have catch all terms as I'm sure everyone's actions must be on a spectrum and relative to them (if you know what I mean!).

I think that's precisely why the trend here in the UK now is to try not to label psychiatric child inpatients as being this condition or that, as people can be such a complex mixture of disorders or symptoms.

I remember a young patient of my mum who was aspergers doted on a secret hamster she kept in the unit.

Katie35 wrote:You've clearly had a lot of therapy

Actually, not professional therapy. I am entirely self-made, as it should be.

Unfortunately, there is some truth to that. Looking back on it, it could have been easier (and decades sooner). But, nobody could tell me anything I didn't already know myself. And, so, it had to be harder. One of those bitter ironies that surround me.

But, I also think coming at it the way I did gives me a different outlook. Probably the most distinctive part of that is how the narcissistic injury occurred absent any awareness of why. I think Ns who go to therapy, have assistance working through it, the mirror to project onto, the pain and the awareness are concurrent and mixed. Mine was more consecutive. There was a year overlap. But, there was a year prior which was pure, isolated, grade-A, pain -- without explanation. Then a year having the explanation, reliving the prior year's pain while understanding the explanation.

It was different in that way. A lot of the injury was out of he way, so I could see the explanation clearer.

Recently I've thought about seeing a therapist just to confirm where I think I'm at, get a "second opinion" (which sounds narcissistic). But, I'm pretty comfortable with what I know, the way things are still coming together. If I were younger, with a life ahead of me (and not retired with loads of time to play doctor on myself) I would go without a second thought! This has been more than I could have hoped for (and is plenty good enough for now).

Katie35 wrote:Don't you think in some ways you are trying to be kind and are being empathetic? I mean, have you ever felt love for a pet, an animal? Is your sensitivity because you use your intellect to understand or it seems to me, you do feel sympathy for the non here.

I've mentioned in other threads I believe Ns have empathy (or close enoug). We're not ASPD. I think (in my case anyway) the living inside the "narrative" simply consumed part of my mental capacity/energy which would have existed in the present moment as "awareness." Being self-aware, I feel more "present" and aware of things I wasn't.

I don't know if what I feel is what normals feel. But, I don't care much. It's good enough. A million times more "here" than I used to be, experiencing something with people which seems more genuine. I'm not going to sweat the details and let perfection be the enemy of good.

Katie35 wrote:Your reply made me laugh a lot! 'Dances with wolves' haha.

I'm full of good ones. I find humor helps deflate what tends to be an over-important topic. (The gasbag part of the False Self). It's a serious illness, and immensely painful to face. But, part of that pain is letting the gas out of the gasbag. I sometimes think a Saturday Night Live parody of narcissism could help Ns see themselves more realistically, with less pain.

It's the severity or seriousness we attach to our coping mechanisms that make it so sensitive to mocking, criticism. "Hey, you're talking about me!" "Yeah, well... maybe the problem is as simple as: you're just not that important. Seeing it that way is painful. But, the cure is to get over yourself. Partaking in your own transubstantiation isn't helping."

It's a fine line between pulling the balloon back to earth, while being sensitive to why it became so full of helium in the first place. Sometimes the latter can't be seen without a painfully clear glimpse of the former.

There's also the risk of passive aggression. I sometimes feel I should be more serious, that I'm sending mixed messages.

Katie35 wrote:I've been reading a lot about Schema Therapy. Do you have experience of this? My friends recommend a more present-oriented therapy e.g. CBT . I see Schema Therapy referred to a lot in the treatment of Narcissism but I wonder if it's more or less practical than CBT. More or less discursive. I wouldn't like a treatment where I talked but received little response (e.g. Rogerian).

I don't know anything about it. There may be people in the "friends and family" forum who could explain how one would be better/different than the other for the purpose you're considering.

I feel like what I did to myself was NLP and CBT (long before knowing anything about different types of therapy.).

Katie35 wrote:How do you know your Hoovering wasn't genuinely missing the person?

Sure, there is an element of truth. Your dog loves you even though he only comes when called because you gave him treats. There's always a grain of truth to everything. It's the magnitude of the grain.

Let's take my ex for example. She caused me to see everything that was wrong with me. One giant shattering. I wasn't fixed. But, I had a sudden and irreversible awareness of *everything* I had always been aware of -- but backgrounded because it was what I always thought I had to extinguish and become the master of.

At that moment, I felt I had a huge awareness of myself, and sorrow, and desire to not be that. When I wrote her, I felt genuine (unlike more flacid attempts at gaining supply from previous relationships, "just checking in."). I suddenly had real, profound regret.

But, even then... I now know I was merely supply gathering. I just wanted her to make the journey I found myself on stop. To tell me "it's enough." I hadn't understood anything except scratching the surface. A lot of air leaked out of the gasbag. I didn't know I had one. I still viewed her as an object to make it stop.

So, even in that reality, my feelings were heavily (at their core) about me. As much as I would have argued with that statement, proven with tears I'm genuine, at my core I was genuinely concerned for myself. For my loss of esteem (being what I realized I was. For not being who I thought I was.).

It's just the same stuff. It simply became a matter of global starvation, not simply needing a supply snack.

So, imagine how tiny the grain of genuine love or emotion would be prior to that shattering event? At that time, I could have told you I stepped aside to let my ex choose what she wanted. How I sacrificed myself for her interests. I would have been convinced everything I did was about her.

I'm telling you, demonic possession is not that far off as a description. How far out of touch I was, is amazing.

The inner-narrative was that believable. I didn't need supply (to hear my echo) to believe it. However, when everything shattered I needed truckloads of supply. I continued to for over a year (even now, I don't always know).

Katie35 wrote:There's a lot of jargon/ language around the discussion of these personality issues and I wonder if it isn't a bit more complicated than that.

It's complicated in the way you may not want it to be. It really is complicated inside.

It's not complicated in the way I said above about the SNL parody. Ns can make it more complicated when all they need to do is realize: I'm just not that special. (But, then the inner complication remains. The narcissistic injury they have to work through. The shame they have to feel as they give up false pride.).

Katie35 wrote:I remember a young patient of my mum who was aspergers doted on a secret hamster she kept in the unit.

I get a cricket or two in the house and they'll hang out with me. I just step around them, and try not to startle them jump. I don't dote on them. But, sometimes I feel like they know I'm cool and they don't mind sitting nearby.

I imagine them going home, "you know those giants? I sat with one! No kidding! His foot came down next to me, and I swear to God, you're not going to believe me, but I think it was intentional. Like, he liked me! And then he'd smoke this stuff, and I'd just sit on the couch with him and see the universe!"

And all his friends think someone sprayed him with pesticide again. "He's delusional."

Hi Truth too late,

This is my first post on this forum. I chose my pseudo in homage to WalkThroughTheStorm who has a personality very similar to my mother's.

Thanks a lot for your explanations, you are truly helping seeing the world from somebody's narcissistic point of view, it really helps empathy wise. I always wondered what would be like a narcissist who would have worked through his/her narcissism, well you answered my question: a regular person with qualities and regrets.

I have two questions for you, if you don't mind me asking. As a recovering narcissist, how does that make you feel to receive, at this stage, what would have been supply in the past, from women you are helping? Is it still supply in a way, but in a healthier way?

My second question is: when you look back can you see pieces of your true self in your old narcissistic self, like is there a strong, weak or else sense of continuity in your identity? Like something that was there as a seed to use your own words, a trait, a passion, that is still there today but has become more prominent, developed?

Après L Orage wrote:how does that make you feel to receive, at this stage, what would have been supply in the past, from women you are helping? Is it still supply in a way, but in a healthier way?

It's nice to know but also makes me uncomfortable. I'm not proud of what I write, and I don't think it's remarkable to write what I know. I think my default attitude is that anything I say is helpful. When it's confirmed, in my mind I attribute it to how I acquired the knowledge (the people I affected). Karma, I guess.

I limit my involvement in PMs for similar reasons. I'm not looking for "supply" which might arise from private cliques or thanks.

Maybe that's selfish because expressing thanks can be beneficial to the person who feels thankful. But, it's not my thing and doesn't do much for me at the moment. Maybe in time I'll be more normal that way.

If it were another topic, I think I can be more normal and not "supply" in a balanced way. But, this topic, the disorder itself, I don't think I'll ever enjoy being thanked for what I know, or sharing it. It came at too great a cost to others (and myself).

Après L Orage wrote:when you look back can you see pieces of your true self in your old narcissistic self, like is there a strong, weak or else sense of continuity in your identity? Like something that was there as a seed to use your own words, a trait, a passion, that is still there today but has become more prominent, developed?

Old and new isn't very different. I'm just more "here" now, which feels more numb, more "tomorrow will be like today" (not preoccupied with a narrative that I have to be someone else, do something else, be somewhere else, preparing for something else, proving all of that.).

Getting to that involved identifying the pieces. I think the only contribution my TS provides is juvenility, youthfulness. I have worked on facets (capabilities) of my FS to be more like a TS. The worst part of the FS was/is the hyper-critic Parent which I try to keep with my conscience, counter-balanced with judging things as good, not embedded in my personality (which caused me to judge myself harshly, anything not comforming to the narrative, etc. But, surprisingly, extremely uncritical of bad choices, etc.). Also the emotionality/lability of the TS (4 year-old). That's significantly less, which lets my agent/mediator-self (the "Ego" in psychology) improve integrating or coordinating the facets of the FS and youthful attitude of the TS.

Nothing's very different. The pieces were all there. They were reactive. The big thing was the Presence->Narrative process->Confabulation. That seemed to be a repeating loop of filling a void in the 4yo via the FS tuned into the Presence. I'm increasingly of the opinion the Presence is the 4yo's memory. It's not within my reach, but I sense it. It seems/ed to get the attention of the FS and a background process (on the edge of consciousness) was used to prioritize my "now," and interpret what is happening, what has happened, and what should happen in the future. A Confabulation (Vaknin's term) of my existence.

Getting a handle on that seemed to be the most important thing. That let me practice interacting with people more "in the now," fully present in the moment, giving the other person the same attention they give me (I assume). Developing some experience with people this way helped me further identify how my coping processes were wrong, how they were driven by the P->NP->C. Which let me literally introduce myself to my FS and begin getting that part of me to be responsive to me (the agent/mediator-self, the Ego), cooperating with goals I have (instead of operating independently, tuned into the P). It wasn't until I proceeded down that road awhile before I detected/encountered my TS. It's not autonomous. No memory. Just an emotion, a personality, unstable. That's why I'm pretty sure the P (some call it a noise, it's like a vibe-generating distraction to the FS, a television playing in the other room, just loud enough to pick up a vibe -- but my FS seems to be, or can be, more aware of what's really there) is the TS's locked-away memories.

Looking back on it, I never thought I'd have that kind of awareness of myself, or peace just being me. (It's an unpleasant peace. But, far better than listening to the mental radio station playing an unsolvable puzzle.). It's not an awareness I saw developing on a daily basis. There were no sudden changes. It's only when I step back and think about how little I knew a year ago. I had to stay on it every day, and then see results over time.

It's often noticeable when I consider values/assumptions/opinions I've held. I've learned to ask myself "what would that look (or sound) like to me?" Sometimes revisiting minor things (like the word hubris, or how well I would do with kids) brings about a usually unpleasant realization (why I'm glad to know what I know). It usually takes a toll on me, numb acceptance.

For example two nights ago I imagined @fille's N mother and what that would have looked like to me (the N returning to her physical state of a 4yo, being dependent upon those she projected her self-hate onto -- to make her own internal 4yo feel better. Now the bitter irony of returning to what she could never escape: dependency, vulnerability. Dependent on someone who, by all rights, should be her and doing to her what she did to them.).

When I wrote about that a couple nights ago, I started channeling something. I felt it and cut it short. It has left me numb since then. Yesterday I literally felt like a large part of me had been erased. Literally dizzy at times.

That might be why I don't mind, or like to, talk about myself. It creates more awareness, more contact with "what would that look like to me." Just because I understood what makes me be the way I am doesn't mean I re-evaluated everything I know. Describing what I know brings me to those questions or viewpoints that I might not have considered otherwise.

IMO, the biggest challenge for an N is to work through the false pride (which results in narcissistic injury, facing shame). It's too easy to hold onto it, negotiate, to think "I've arrived" when there's no land in sight.

A year ago when I identified with cNPD I thought it was getting rid of the false self. But, I think it's just coming back to earth. Humility. There is a lot of pain to work through getting there. I don't know if I'm "there." Pride/shame seems like the core issue. (But, it's the structure for which it developed and is maintained is just as crucial.). I think that's what I got in touch with the most for two years.