Questions About Relationships From Nons

Pangloss wrote:TruthTL, he's decided to tell me that he loves me and would like to work on the marriage, but he is still confabulating past events,

If he's anything like me, he's negotiating. Trying to find a way to maintain the comfort of familiarity. My inflated view of myself would at first be like "yeah, sure, great. Leave. I have a lot of better things I could be doing. You're going to release me from what's holding me back."

But, after a few days I would start thinking, "I have to start paying the bills. And, cooking. And, taking care of the kid alone when it's 'my turn'. And, I have to find a roommate -- or take a hit on all the income I have available to live like a 4 year-old."

Even though I had an inflated view of myself, I could make choices that something "better." I was always about my best interest.

So, I would start "negotiating." Like, "Ok, look. I'll overlook all your faults. You don't need to leave. You're really not that bad."

If you continue to show him you're really leaving, and if he's anything like me, that would start turning into a crisis for me. Full blown crying, begging. I'd even admit I have a problem without realizing (or caring) if I do. If you think I have a problem: I have a problem. Whatever, just stop because I'm a 4-year-old and I'm starting to realize what it's going to be like by myself.

Maybe he's not like me. I don't want to urge you interpret him like me (causing a broken family, especially when a child is involved.). But, if he's like me, it's seriously going to take a year or longer to get relatively clear about himself. If he really went to therapy and was committed to get to his problem (not resistant, arguing with the therapist) I could see staying with him.

But, if he's like me, he'll need to shatter by himself.

Truth, he is very much like you, in that he has NPD but not to the point of psychopathy, which is why I'm interested in your journey. Everything you wrote rang true, I could see his reaction to my response, as if I could "read" him.

Like you described, he is now trying very hard to save the marriage and he came across as genuinely happy when I am participating in household decisions, taking care of cooking, shopping, etc, in a semblance of "domestic bliss".

What's helpful for us Norms is to understand the humane but disordered nature of the pwNPD, our pain is the greatest when we couldn't understand what we were dealing with, and seeing everything through our normal lenses. Understanding helps to create emotional detachment and we hurt less.

He is semi-aware, as he could tell his mother has a severe case of NPD, but he will not "bow down" to such a diagnosis, and he isn't knowledgeable enough to seek therapeutic literature. Books bore him, in fact any intellectual content would do the same, though when he was romancing me he pretended to be a reader, and he likes to create this impression of the "erudite gentleman".

I don't care about any of these, if I love him, really. I am more bothered by the PD and have decided that I don't want to live with this. Finding out about NPD is in fact shining a light into my own oblivious self.

I hired a true, almost psychopathic pwNPD recently for my project, much worse than my spouse, who came across as Mr Wonderful in the beginning. Thanks to my experience with NPD spouse, I quickly spotted anomalies and paid attention to many telltale signs and fired him within 2 months before he inflicted more harm to the project and on his colleagues.

There is a spectrum, and I do see the "kinder version" of pwNPD in you and my spouse. I do know it's futile, but I might be able to pave a way forward that doesn't hurt him but help us all.

Pangloss wrote:He is semi-aware, as he could tell his mother has a severe case of NPD, but he will not "bow down" to such a diagnosis,

I remember you saying something about that. It seems relevant now. He knows? And, he told his mom he knows? But didn't tell you?

If that's the case, that could be something to hit square on the head. If he knows and could take it seriously, accept it and take steps, that might be different.

I just realized one thing I regret about the way I became self-aware: I wasn't familiar with cNPD prior to it happening. I knew enough about myself to know something was wrong, enough to cause me to occasionally trait surf to increase my self-sufficiency for whatever i sensed was coming. I always skipped over NPD because just the name "narcissism" didn't fit. Like that was so opposite of what I felt (the simultaneous funeral and glib and unstoppable march).

It would be nice to know how I would have absorbed NPD if I would have stopped and considered it. I might have got help. That might be positive for your spouse knowing. Maybe he just needs the reason to be serious about it. The "wake up" call?

In my case, I saw BPD very strongly. In fact, if my internal shatter hadn't have happened when it did, I think I would have eventually accepted BPD and gone to therapy for the way in which it wouldn't fit (and continued to not fit during the year I picked the pieces off the floor, arranging them on the table trying to understand the alien machinery that had fell out of my head). When I saw cNPD after that year-long inventory it was so clear, I believe I would have seen it pretty clearly if I had been exposed to it earlier. I already knew a lot of what I did. It just got clearer that year.

My problem was stubbornous and ignorance (and cheap!). I wouldn't go to therapy even when I identified enough with BPD to explain a large part of my shatter.

That explains a lot right there. I needed to have the answer first. Nobody was going to tell me anything about myself that I couldn't tell them first. (Not with the core stuff.). But, I really did know something was wrong before I even met my ex. I trait surfed and really did want to understand it. I thought I did. I don't know. Maybe my subconscious prevented me from giving NPD a second thought. But, if I could see my self enough in BPD (which I did for 4-5 years before I shattered), I'm sure I would have seen NPD matching considerably more.

I don't know how seriously I would have taken it. It feels like I would have. But, it took 2 years to realize hubris isn't a compliment. I have no idea how I would have seen things on my own without that shatter event.

The other night I was thinking how it feels like when I had my dog in obedience training. I remember how I was in the beginner's course and it was chaos. 2-second attention spans. I'd often gaze across the field at the advanced class, dogs sitting quietly alone, their owners 200' away. I remember thinking "Those are different kinds of dogs. I don't even know where you get one of those."

And then a year later I was in the advanced class. I was standing with other owners 200' from our dogs spread across the field. And I looked over at the beginner's class and I was like "Holy crap! I would have never imagined this from there." It was like it was suddenly real.

It's strange how you don't see things on a daily basis. (That might apply to you how you got acclimated to it.). Even when it was all laying in front of me a year ago, there's still been a huge change in my awareness. (Talking here's been a big part. I could have started sooner.). I would definitely not underestimate the power of talking. If he could take what he apparently knows seriously and be able to share with you about it, and talk to a professional, he could have a progressive experience.

But, it wouldn't be immediate. And, your presence could impede it. Only you can tell if he's serious about at least following it wherever it goes. And then, whether you'd want to be a part of what will continue to be unpleasant at least until he sees himself from across the field. It could be worth it. Maybe not.

The safe thing to do is no-contact and let it happen. If it happens, he'll recognize how NC was necessary. But, with joint custody you're going to be pulled in anyway. Will it be making it worse for you just trying to assert your seperatness? If you care about him, it could be a phyricc victory. At a distance watching greater anguish than might be necessary. You'd never know without first being there and seeing if he's truly internalizing it without needing the sledgehammer hitting him over the head?

His NPD mom's behavior is about as subtle as a freight train accelerating at full throttle for a head-on collision with a granite hillside. K ran away from her because he couldn't take her personality anymore, so it did dawn on him and *she* might have a problem, but he denied that he might have inherited genetically and through his own upbringing by parents with NPD and BDP to become one.

I don't mean to be critical but he has logic-impairment issues, he doesn't read, he can't watch films that are "serious", he plagiarizes, he refuses to talk to me or listen, so how can he embark on a learning process? Therapy around these parts is $250/hour, it's incredibly unaffordable.

Personally, I don't think I am out of the woods yet over the regrets that I made a terrible mistake in rushing into a marriage with him, we all know we can't be mired in the problems which are consequences of past poor decision making, but it's easier said than done.

I wish I can be out and about, productive about my own life and future, instead of ruminating over the problems.

This is the dilemma we all face, after finding out about NPD, how to snap out of the funk, take decisive actions and move on.

-- Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:33 pm --

May this be a warning to those who are not awaken enough to be glad they found out about NPD that it would help them cut and run. The adverse consequences are in direct proportion to the amount of time and commitment invested in any such relationships, unfortunately.

-- Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:37 pm --

PS. Btw, I doubt that he would have a sledgehammer moment as he has not exhibited any signs of introspection.

But I am thinking about the dog training sessions you described....K could get there with small changes and adjustments everyday. It's good for himself and the kids if he progresses. Thanks for the note of optimism.

Pangloss wrote:But I am thinking about the dog training sessions you described....K could get there with small changes and adjustments everyday. It's good for himself and the kids if he progresses. Thanks for the note of optimism.

I may be reading too much into that. But, I don't think dog-training principles can be used to lead an N to better behaviors. (Except dropping him off at the pound.). If he accepted his condition, was in therapy, and could be conversant with you about his discovery, it could be beneficial to point out progress which he may not see (won't see until he has one of those "looking across the field" moments.).

It's tricky because an N craves feedback (to know who they are, or confirmation that they are who they've made themselves to be). But, is so invested in who they've made (as a result of not trusting others) that they resist feedback. It's a chicken/egg problem.

Not that I think you were considering acting like a dog trainer (that's something I would do -- and have done). But, the principles of dog training apply in a way. Karen Pryor was a dolphin trainer (behavioral scientist? I don't know) who brought those techniques to training dogs. It's very different compared to traditional jerk/push/pull coercive training. The principles (Skinner behaviorism, operant conditioning) are documented in her book "Don't Shoot The Dog." (But, not the technique specific to dogs.).

But, she makes clear that it only works for creatures who can choose in their best interest. It's based entirely upon that fundamental ability. Lacking such ability is the proverbial definition of insanity: doing the same thing, expecting a different result. Her "clicker training" (adapted from the whistles used to "mark" the desired behavior of dolphins, as a secondary reinforcement) offers the choice.

There's kind of a tie-in here with problem dogs. Most dogs, especially young, can catch onto clicker training easy, and it will be like they never knew anything else. It's not a remarkable transformation. They might even be a little more problematic because they're learning to test the boundaries to see if they'll get clicked, instead of avoiding boundaries due to fear of punishment.

However, it's really startling to use clicker training with a mature dog that didn't receive any feedback. They're out of control. They don't know what they're looking for. They have 1/2 second attention spans. The trick to working with them is to catch that 1/2-second window when they can make a connection. The clicker's short duration (as a marker) works well. When such a dog "gets it" they go nuts. They transform before your eyes. It's like they never knew they could "learn" something. They'll let out a huge howl and then stand in front of you intently looking for "what's next?" It's like a new world opened to them and you *see* it happen.

I think an N is like that. They won't "get it" until they get it. I can't see any way to help an N get it except to have an honest, short and neutral conversation where you're talking to the "normal" part of their mind (I call it the Agent self, or the Mediator). It's that part of the N who has ceeded to the Confabulation and needs to have that "wake up" moment. It's that part which has to catch the 1/2-second window within the madness that's occurring in his head -- but which he's always kind of "known" is madness (but can't find the reason or energy to take control and stop it, or even look into how to stop it).

There's no way for an outside person to get through to them other than to plant some seeds for the Agent self to compare to what it's become a spectator to.

Dogs don't have an ego like we do, I guess. When a problem dog gets that "connection" it instantly abandons the coping techniques it used. There's no negotiation, resistance, fussy/pouty baby refusing to give up its security blanket. It's an immediate transformation, like "holy crap, you mean I can learn stuff?" It's remarkable to see. I've seen it once myself (with my male rott who was going to be put down because he kept trying to bite his owners). But, I've read other accounts that are exactly the same. A very dramatic realization often marked by a bizarre howl and sudden attentiveness.

Maybe they don't have pride like humans do. Something's different with us. We give up slowly.

If K could really have that "ok, somethings wrong." It could turn into something good. But, it would still be a long process which, day to day, might not look like anything's happening.

I didn't have the opportunity to be with someone. I suspect the presence of another would have served as a distraction, someone to project onto, etc. But, if someone knew what I was going through (like you would with him), it might have been possible to establish some structure such as new boundaries, minimum expectations, who owns what, two people with their own individual existence, and what the overlap is.

After I recognized I had a problem, I think I could have appreciated that and been called back to it when I strayed. I liked structure.

I just wonder if something like that might not be possible and better for you since you're going to be prone to hoovering due to the children creating a connection you can't escape. If you have to fight emotions through hoovering, and him probably being more desperate to hoover because he's alone. Maybe staying could be better.

I think if someone told me, "look, I know what's going on with you. You do too. It's just hard to accept because you don't have something better to turn to. If I stay, you're not going to do what's necessary because you developed this way of existing with yourself as a defense mechanism. You won't give it up if you don't have to. If I stay, you'll be comfortable, and it will just be an ongoing negotiation.

"If I leave, you're going to suffer narcissistic injury from the loss of a mirror (supply) and you'll try to prove to me you've "got it." Either way I'm facing emotions I don't want -- because they're *yours*. It's always about *you*. That is the problem which you have to address."

If you had that conversation with me, I think I would have known you were right. If not, then I would eventually. It would remain with me as a seed in the back of my mind (like what the company shrink said, and a few other people in my past). It can make it easier for the Agent self to accept when the time comes. (Maybe the time will come sooner.). It wouldn't be loaded with personal disappointment, venting, anger, etc. Nothing that would allow him to turn it into his narrative (about how people are against him, and this is why he has to try harder to compensate for what he knows in the back of his mind is a problem that's *not* going away.).

It might be unrealistic, but there's a possibility he could "get it" enough to make an effort to get to the bottom of it, and accept ground rules for existing with you. Rules designed to help him own what he needs to own and has presumably committed to get to the bottom of. And, rules to respect your individuality as a person, being responsible only for yourself.

Seems like there could be a way for this to work better than separation and constantly being pulled back in to what he's facing alone. I think the question is whether he can "get it" enough now to be serious about it, or whether he'd only be doing it for you (and then continue testing, projecting, to see if you're worth continuing to do it for). There has to be a genuine recognition and revulsion of what's happening inside. He has to have a personal relationship with himself in that regard. Nobody else can make it go away. And, if it doesn't go away, he's going to end up with nobody else.

Only you could know. Maybe it's way worse than that and I'm idealizing it.

I have a relationship question. I was in a relationship with a guy that exhibited severe traits of both NPD and ASPD. Long story short, I went though the idealization, devalue, and discard stages about 10 times and he would also make violent statements and seemed to be involved in illegal activity. During the last devalue I snapped and he had an explosive argument and I called him out on everything. I have been NC for 6 weeks now however in the past 2 weeks he reached out via email. The first email called me ill and mention that he wouldn't take all things I said personal. The 2nd email said "Hello". Then he sent text message asking "how am I doing?" and called 3 times but I did not answer or respond to his text. For some stupid reason I replied days later asking "Why did you call me?". He responded that "I shouldn't ask why he called since I did not answer" then went on to say "Why didn't I answer?'. His response was as if he was picking up from where we left off. I never responded. My question is why reach back out to me even though I called mentioned to him that he was a Sociopath and Narcissist and called him out on ever single thing that could shame him?

know1yourself wrote:My question is why reach back out to me even though I called mentioned to him that he was a Sociopath and Narcissist and called him out on ever single thing that could shame him?

If he's really NPD, he's seeing if he can still fix you. If you'll still play the game and act as a mirror to reflect his projected image. (Which could imply why he called you ill.). There's also the possibility something's wrong with you. People with their own issues gravitate to Ns. The problem with push/pull is that it leaves the non confused to, and perhaps blaming the N when they have their own issues to consider.

There is a thread I started about shame/pride being at the root of NPD. Further into it are some posts about how projecting/mirroring work, what he may be reenacting.

No contact is the best solution unless you understand NPD and can deal with him without it getting to you. (If he was aware of his problem it might be worth a try like that. But, it doesn't sound like he is.).

Truth too late wrote:

know1yourself wrote:My question is why reach back out to me even though I called mentioned to him that he was a Sociopath and Narcissist and called him out on ever single thing that could shame him?

If he's really NPD, he's seeing if he can still fix you. If you'll still play the game and act as a mirror to reflect his projected image. (Which could imply why he called you ill.). There's also the possibility something's wrong with you. People with their own issues gravitate to Ns. The problem with push/pull is that it leaves the non confused to, and perhaps blaming the N when they have their own issues to consider.

There is a thread I started about shame/pride being at the root of NPD. Further into it are some posts about how projecting/mirroring work, what he may.
be reenacting.

No contact is the best solution unless you understand NPD and can deal with him without it getting to you. (If he was aware of his problem it might be worth a try like that. But, it doesn't sound like he is.).

Thanks for your response. He called me ill responding to an old email I sent where I told him to get some help for his issues. Not saying I don't have issues myself because everyone does but he has brought the true anger out of me with his constant insults.

In the past he has called me a liar, cheater, judgmental, and untrustworthy but I'm the complete opposite. So I think he was projecting during those times. I will check out your post for more information.

I'm uncertain if he's aware. On several occasions he has asked me if I think he is normal and that he does the push in pull because he is afraid that everyone will abandon him. But then he will go on saying he doesn't need anyone, doesn't trust anyone, and isn't afraid to lose anyone. As a result of his bad behavior progressing over time I've decided to go NC. My problem is that I'm an extremely caring individual than can empathize because my sister is bipolar; but the big difference is that she doesn't play with my psyche.

know1, the process is called "hoovering", he needs you because he is afraid to be alone, not because he feels or cares for you. He might mistake "needing you" for "love" - as in "if he wants you around, he must surely love you"? You've got to be clear-eyed about this. My advice is to run, run, as fast as you can. Don't waste any more of your life on this man.

Truth T L, if you're retired, you should consider going into therapeutic work to bat for "our side", the Nons, because we really are clueless about NPD. What you described in the previous posts except the last one addressed to me did happen to the letter, i.e. he went from "my life is so much better without you, you really destroyed everything you evil B*" to "If you change and be less destructive, maybe I will consider working things out with you...etc.", all in SMS text.

I am not optimistic about K because he is unable to focus on thoughts, he cannot read, he has no introspection, self awareness, logic and reason, he's constantly whitewashing history, he's full of rage, etc. We can't have a conversation without him confabulating or blowing up because of narcissistic injury. Imagine years and years of not holding a conversation....it really kills me as well.

This is why the only way to help him get better might be behavioral therapy, like you described, giving constant feedback to recondition his thought patterns and deeds...ack, it sounds a bit like A Clockwork Orange, doesn't it? I can even hear Beethoven wafting in the background...

Staying is out of the question for me as K is not self-aware enough, there is no depth that I can detect. I won't be living, will be a sorry shell of a caretaker for the NPD spouse. I'm curious what I can be on my own, and not spending energy and time dealing and coping with the 4 year old.

The biggest hurdle for us Nons is the same recovery process, but from the opposite end, we need to stop obsessing about the pwNPD we're tangled with, learn to heal from the pain and hurt inflicted, to not dwell on the regrets, and learn how to move forward if we are entangled with children. I still haven't found adequate resources for that aspect of recovery for Nons.

My proposed solution is a good boarding school for them, remove them from an unhealthy familial environment and to let them concentrate on paving their own path forward under a more structured way of life.

I actually hope that K will find someone who will love him enough to go through his gradual recovery with him. If I had known about the PD early in our marriage, I might have done it 10 years ago, giving our marriage a few more years' grace, but I'm too tired and have developed an intense dislike for him.

Living with a pwNPD takes a severe toll on Nons, this is the reason we all shout from across to those who don't know any better, RUN.