Questions About Relationships From Nons

I've heard lots about the love bombing stage to reel you in.

What if you never get that with a N and they were always ambivalent?

Do they not bother with the love bombing stage if they just want to keep you for back up supply?

Thank you so much Truth Too Late.

I can't tell you how interesting what you wrote is to me. You are so spot on. Maybe the behaviour speaks more clearly when you are reading it objectively. I know it is cliched but it does make sense if somebody has had such damaging early relationships with their parents that they might find closeness unbearable or might have little patience with a partner 'making mistakes' or 'having off days' as everybody does in relationships.

I have been busying myself helping a cat at the local garden centre (!) to get vet treatment and helping friends. They say that getting out and keeping busy, seeing people is a way to avoid getting very down. It is tough though, it's the uncertainty but he didn't reply when I asked him if the relationship was over.

Does the behaviour you described mean my boyfriend will not be missing me or thinking about the relationship at all? I've never really understood how he can cut off so abruptly for weeks like that. I would miss the other person too much even if I was initially angry with them.

Ok, before I get too repetitive, thank you again. It was a very sensitive and kind post and I can't tell how much I appreciate you taking the time.

Katie35 wrote:Does the behaviour you described mean my boyfriend will not be missing me or thinking about the relationship at all? I've never really understood how he can cut off so abruptly for weeks like that. I would miss the other person too much even if I was initially angry with them.

You should probably move on and stop investing yourself in someone who is toxic. But, you said you don't want that advice. In that case, you should continue asking yourself why that is (something about you that is attracted to toxicity). If you really intend to be in his life, then you should read Vaknin's 9-part World of the Narcissist essay. If you follow the labertynth of embedded links you'll find more definition to concepts and terms. (Experiential definition. Not textbook, theory. One that might be less experiential and more textbook is here. It seems pretty good, but a different third-person tone.).

If you want to understand him, you have a lot of reading to do. But, the basic premise is "mirrors." If you keep that *literally* in mind everything else is easy to understand. He can't comfort and reconcile himself to reality the way normal people can. He needs to see reflections of himself in others. There is a parallel universe occurring in his head which he believes is just his "inner voice" or conscience -- like anyone has. He doesn't realize it's something that has developed a life of its own and supersedes reality in many ways.

He probably is thinking of the relationship, making it better than it was (to justify the devalue and discard he's performed, getting more "supply" from those past reflections). He won't know he's doing this. If asked, he'll say it crossed a line, it's beyond trying. But, he knows you could try hard enough to "prove" yourself. He knows he's leaving it to you. If you really care, you won't let your self-esteem stand in the way of meeting his peculiar needs. He may even think that would be the ultimate -- to prove he never has to worry that you put yourself above his needs to feel safe, secure, wanted.

But, even if met his every need, he would end up feeling contempt for you. He needs to see a reflection that doesn't exist. The more you try to give him the reflection he wants, the more the puzzle becomes solved and you won't serve the purpose any longer (to have an unsolveable puzzle). More frequent push/pull. Eventually he will lose respect for you. The image you reflect may be perfect according to everything he subtly coerced you to reflect. But, you will have become a 10-cent mirror. Not as good as a 5-dollar mirror. (The quality of the mirror is just as important as the image it reflects.).

If you really don't want to move on, and don't want to dig into your own issues which cause that, the best thing you can do is to understand how he exists in the world and simply let him know that you understand it and you like him anyway. Don't take things personal. Be prepared to cater to him like a 4-year-old. And, be prepared to exert your own boundaries (lest you become a 10-cent mirror), and live with the 4-year-old pouting sessions without taking it personally nor retaliating. Just keep showing him nothing matters except your realistic view/acceptance of him.

You'll be able to reach him that way. But, it's not going to be a sudden revelation.

He has a true inner voice which he's always aware of. It tells him something is wrong. He knows he has a problem but believes the coping mechanisms are easier/safer than facing what he's long forgotten. He'll hear what you say. He may write you out of his narrative because of it. But, inside (as long as you didn't "educate" him in malice, anger nor condescension) he'll hear it and remember. (The one thing we are is self-sufficient. We'll keep any information which sounds like it may be useful.). As he gets older[1] and it's harder to maintain his grandiosity with the outside world, fewer sources of supply, harder to be self-sustained/isolated. That could make it easier for him to consider the house of mirrors he's built for himself. At least knowing there's a way to look at it.

Being older already, he may be more inclined to listen to what you say. He might be close to the point that it's not working anymore.

I think a couple of the best ways to get through to an N is to explain to them that their coping techniques are like someone wearing ear plugs (talking louder than everyone else, not hearing everyone else, unaware that they're over-compensating). Or, the so-called "little man's syndrome." The guy who acts bigger/more authoritative than he really is. He doesn't do it to convince everyone around him he's physically taller. He does it to convince himself he's psychically taller. He overcompensates for his own feeling of inadequacy without realizing he's actually living down to the inadequacy he feels.

[1] I've seen old narcissists. I used to see a 72'ish guy at the grocery store. It was awful. He would angrily force himself to the front of the line. Each person he pushed in front of and angrily exclaimed "I only have 3 things" was as much a source of supply as the supply I would extort through more elegant means. He was down to the point of just taking it. The more people acted startled and offended, but withheld their protests due to his age and frailty, the more he felt he existed.

He would reach the cashier and then insist that the price is wrong, putting the cashier in the position of holding up all those kind folks he cut in front of. It's not his fault they're being inconvenienced. Then he'd demand a new "shopper/loyalty card" to get the discounts -- why saying "I don't want it, throw it away." Too important to be bothered with carrying a card like everyone else. Probably some long-held criticism that stores should just charge the same price for everything and not do the "member price" gimmick. Something he could criticize in the past, now something he could incorporate into his bitter existence.

He would then contemptuously instruct the cashier to take the coins from his hand because his fingers are knurled from arthritis. Projecting onto the cashier his own contempt for his body failing his grandiosity. As he walked away, he would throw his receipt on the floor as if he had been intentionally offended by receiving it.

Truth, you're doing us Nons a huge favour by answering our questions and clearing the fog for us to see and understand the pwNPD.

2 questions for you:

1. You had your lightbulb moment, it is quite clear you see all the issues, you elucidate so well for us here. How did you attain that moment? I know your story, but was there a specific convergence of factors that brought about this? It might be important to know so that other pwNPD might use your knowledge/experience to find this moment themselves.

2. Now that you are lucid, are you able to establish a True Self gradually? Do you see it emerging out of this process of clarifying for us Nons about the pwNPD?

My apologies in advance if these questions are too personal, but I think many Nons would like to know how you did it.

Pangloss wrote:How did you attain that moment? I know your story, but was there a specific convergence of factors that brought about this? It might be important to know so that other pwNPD might use your knowledge/experience to find this moment themselves.

Sometimes I've mentioned different aspects. Eventually I wrote those aspects into a single post. I keep such URLs with the notion I could refer to them for this purpose. They probably don't contain every momentous thought (I thought) I had in the previous run-ups. That's one reason I'm thinking about putting such info in a blog (perpetually editable).

But, the following posts were the last ones I remember making on the topic.

narcissistic-personality/topic162863.html#p1677224
narcissistic-personality/topic163581.html
narcissistic-personality/topic163037-10.html#p1679491

Pangloss wrote:2. Now that you are lucid, are you able to establish a True Self gradually? Do you see it emerging out of this process of clarifying for us Nons about the pwNPD?

Posting to this forum has helped, especially when I first started. (I'd done this alone for a two years except for periodic communication to my ex.). I knew about this forum. I don't know why I didn't post here sooner. I didn't realize talking about things helps so much. But, I also think I wouldn't talk about anything until I was certain. I'm a DIY person. I don't think it was in my nature to admit anything until I could explain it myself. But, I think I was at that stage a 6 months before I came here. It would have been better if I did that.

As far as what's emerging. I feel like it's my false self integrating, learning to cope better, as a partner. Like everyone's "on the same page." But, it's not pleasant. It's more like: The jig is up (dance is over).

It feels unsteady. I think that's because of the age differences between the players (the "me" at different times in the narrative -- my morphing identity -- which exists in, or as the false self). It feels jagged that way. Not a smooth self. But, glad to be more aware and in the present.)

As far as the true self. I can't tell where it fits.

The first time I identified the parts of me (the "noise" or "presence," and the false self that gets sucked into it), and chose not to listen, I felt like I was in an empty room lit harshly. It was not a good feeling. I didn't think anything was there (I had the kind of reaction John Cussack has in the movie Identity when he learns what's happening. That was the first thing I thought of. I thought the floor dropped away. Everything was gone.).

Some have said that "sense of self" which experienced the room was my true self.

I don't know. I think about this occasionally and reconsider my sense of self (the "parts" I'm familiar with). What I sense happening is my "sense of self" (the "me" that experienced the room) is getting better at coordinating things, being self-aware, bringing everyone onto the same page.

It feels like that part of me is maturing in some way. However. I feel like there's something beneath that "sense of self."

It's a very disturbed 4-year-old. It seems like it's the source of the hyper emotionality I've felt my whole life (the simmering emotions beneath the skin, the hyper awareness, looking for threats). Something seems to have gotten "healed" emotionally recently. It also seems to be erratic like a 4-year-old. It's like the opposite of the cumulative "parts" of the false self. (Which fits the definition of a true self.).

But, I didn't detect that person when I was in the room. It came later. The "me" in the room seems to be an ambassador between the 4 year-old, the parts of the false self, and the presence. In fact, I've been sensing the 4yo is connected to the "presence" in the same way the false self is. A participant in some way.

So, I don't know if I have a true self. But, I'm happy with the "sense of self" and how things are. It's a vast improvement of behaving in ways I didn't understand, affecting people as objects (sometimes horribly).

I don't think the 4yo will grow much. It seems more settled, maybe because I'm more aware of it. It seems like my "sense of self" is expanding in awareness, conducting the parts in reality rather than the parts operating like they knew what they were doing. It's like my conscience was a bystander and that's the "sense of self" now.

I'm fine with that being my TS. But, I think, technically, it's the kid. I don't see a lot of potential there. But, it's a great kid. (What he could have been, etc.).

That's my current understanding of my inner topology. It seems very similar to MPD. But, it's not like any part got lost at anytime except the kid. The "players" who emerge from the narrative as my cumulative false self are like self-lettes. Diminutive parts of a whole which I've always been aware of and drawn from.

Truth, thanks for the links, I'm going through them slowly.

Wrt the "letter" in the 3rd link, wouldn't it come across as an attack from the perspective of the pwNPD? Mine proposed that it is in fact *me* who is the pwNPD and he's drowning in all the venom I spew in his life....

I'm going to catch Cusack's Identity too, sounds like an interesting thriller, but I think I spotted a spoiler !

Pangloss wrote:Wrt the "letter" in the 3rd link, wouldn't it come across as an attack from the perspective of the pwNPD? Mine proposed that it is in fact *me* who is the pwNPD and he's drowning in all the venom I spew in his life....

The "letter" was for someone who had already left and subsequently(?) saw what the problem was. They wanted to help their ex, but didn't want to get pulled back in, was afraid it could lead to that(?), was contemplating "personalizing" what they had to say (which would have contributed to him missing the point, using it as an opportunity to pull her back in).

Your situation (living with the N) makes it different. What I wrote is the perspective I needed to have. I don't know how an N could be led to considering that perspective when there are so many opportunities to fall back upon deeply ingrained coping mechanisms (distractions via "communicating" through silence, push pull, testing, etc.). Trying to reach an N from within the room of mirrors is like randomly shooting in the dark.

If he were self-aware I could see the arrangement being potentially fruitful (depending on your own temperament, traits if any, etc.). At least the vocabulary would be established. It would be a recognized topic.

To be with an unaware N (resistant, argumentative, projecting, dependency-labile) I think you'd have to understand the disorder so well (internalize it so well) that you could put yourself in his shoes and not take anything personally. That would let you neither try too hard, nor too little. Your boundaries and your sense of self would be highly individualized so trying "too hard or too little" wouldn't be governed by malice nor over-investment. Just acceptance.

I don't think it would be very fruitful. It would be like living with a 4-year-old. But, if someone felt the need to remain with an N and help them see their N'ness, I think they would have to eliminate themselves (in that relationship) to that extent. Let the N choose for himself -- without the easy "outs" which arise from nons taking the N's behavior too personally.

Truth, I'm already planning my departure, as I can't throw away any more years of my life on a futile "relationship" with my Narc. He doesn't want to end the marriage, but I honestly don't see any point in continuing. I hope to move to another city, find a new apartment, a new job, and when I'm settled into my new life, get ready to share custody.

You are right, there is no humanly possible way to live with a Narc, I have had 14 years of this, my advice to anyone who is involved and not too heavily committed with children, etc, to just run for the hills. You will find yourself exhausted from the "crazy making", desperate to leave, sucked dry and trying not to be bitter many years down the road. Guaranteed.

The only positive to this outcome is that the Narc is finally beginning to see the possibility that he never "loved" me, he just wanted me for all the wrong reasons, wrong for me or any normal spouse anyway, but probably what he needed for the past 14 years. Whatever kept him going was at my severe expense.

With every day I'm getting closer to the light at the end of the tunnel, this is what's great for me now, as I plan my exit from this existential hell.

-- Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:28 pm --

Want to add that when my Narc realized that he never "loved" me, to him, it's because there's something wrong with me that made him not love me, that I'm unworthy of love. For me, it's good enough that we are on our way to separation, I no longer care about what he or his mom think.

Pangloss wrote: Want to add that when my Narc realized that he never "loved" me, to him, it's because there's something wrong with me that made him not love me, that I'm unworthy of love.

He's projecting. When I did the same thing it was in equal measure to what was lacking in me. The coping (testing) I described last night leads to the conclusion "you're not the right one." When the other person's ready to leave, it's all understandable. "Of course I saw it coming. Why wouldn't I? Yes, you're correct, you're not the right one -- and I can enumerate the 2000 ways because I've been watching my reflection in you that intently (not realizing I've forgetton who's who.)."

If he's anything like me, he'll "realize his mistake" to hoover you back. It won't be realizing how he never treated you as a person (and therefore can't know if he loves you or not), but that he was wrong in his assessment. He just needed to see you in a fresh light. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

I was (am?) very much a Peter Pan. I don't face reality and grown-up problems well. I'm like waiting for the parents to come home to take care of everything. In the meantime, it's fun to be 4 years old and independent.

Eventually he'll see it. It can take 20 years. Maybe he'll never see it. Some of us reach old age, bitter, blaming everyone that they can't *come close* to mirror what we need to see. Angrily looking at the ground as we walk -- because that's better than seeing our frail, deformed self in the eyes of others. (I've seen it. It must be an awful experience.).

If he does have a "come to Jesus" moment, I really think it's something he'd have to go through alone for more than a few months. It's too easy to think the next rest stop is the destination (when you've got someone to give supply, etc.).

You might be able to plant a seed that he will use when the time comes. If he's really NPD, he knows deep inside something's wrong. He merely doesn't realize the extent. It's like the proverbial "boiling frogs." He's done it so long he's reached equilibrium. He know's something's off, but it doesn't feel that off (as it would have felt if he went from room temperature straight to scalding water.). It's seductive that way.

But, if you've already talked to him about his condition, then doing it more might be counterproductive, putting you in the position of nagging mother whom he's trying to blot out of his childhood memories.

If you didn't have joint-custody, you could go no-contact and wait for the supply-hunting "checkup." You could drop some relationship-neutral seeds. But, with regular interaction due to child custody, I don't think it would be possible to maintain the necessary neutrality to make the seeds work. They would get mired up in the ongoing testing, contention, etc.

Good luck.

TruthTL, he's decided to tell me that he loves me and would like to work on the marriage, but he is still confabulating past events, still carefully building a funhouse hall of mirrors that is a distorted reality. Like every Norm who left, the awakening in me makes it difficult to want to try anymore, and when I have my affairs arranged, I'm booking my ticket out of here.

I still don't understand why I ignored all the red flags and stayed with him, except for my own possible co-dependent tendencies.

I do wish I had found out earlier, and not be mired in years of fog, wasted so much time.

Hopefully, this forum, and all the threads will help others, Norms or pwNPD, to identify the problem, though I wish there were better resources out there that help to answer questions the likes of "Now that you know, now what?"

If you know of any resources that point to a way forward do post?