Questions About Relationships From Nons

Pangloss wrote:he went from "my life is so much better without you, you really destroyed everything you evil B*" to "If you change and be less destructive, maybe I will consider working things out with you...etc.", all in SMS text.

If he's anything like me, he'll go to a more panicked, desperate state, begging, maybe tears. But, it will still be "Listen: I'll drop the part about you being less destructive. I care about you that much, baby. You can continue to be destructive."

The last thing he'll see is that it's him. It could take decades of this repeating pattern. You could be doing him a favor so he experiences it sooner rather than later. (I.e., if you left him 10 years ago he might be close to "getting it" now.).

It's a weird place to be. If he's like me, he'll really believe he loves you enough to sacrifice for you in that way. He'll genuinely feel what he thinks he's feeling for you. ("The feelings are real, so what's the problem?"). When I was at that point, I think I was writing the next chapter of the narrative. Kind of a "I tried to help her. I did my best." The loss of supply will amplify that into a desire to help more (try harder to help you, check in on you to see if you've come to you've had a "absence makes the heart grow fonder" experience like *I* did.).

It's strange thinking about it now because it's so "not there." It's why I keep thinking NPD is "borderline schizophrenia." It's like having an invisible buddy who helps you see things in a "special" way. It's so impenetrable. Even knowing in the back of your mind something's wrong with you... "maybe a few more times I'll get it right (oh, look, the train to Philly is leaving. I have to go.)."

What I'm thinking about now is how strange it is that I could hold those two views simultaneously. It's like I've said how my mind was like a simultaneous funeral and glib, yet-persistent march. On the one hand I could be dismissive and "so what, if that's what she wants, ok. I tried. Poor thing will just have to miss out on all the greatness I offer." AND "I can't hardly bear not having her. I cared *so* much."

I think that ties into the pride/shame thread and and re-enacting something. I wasn't thinking about whether it made sense. I just felt it. It had nothing to do with me in the "now" (and the other person as a person.).

I don't think you have anything to worry about except more desperate attempts at pulling your heartstrings. If the backtones of condescension (and realizing he should have been more tolerant of *your* faults) subside, it might be a good time to have the neutral (yet clear and concise) communication to make him perhaps aware. (Or, at least plant the seed.).

I never had a violent streak, like forcing someone to comply. Nor a "if I can't have her nobody else can." I would just be the victim of someone who could have been the one, but "like everyone else..." A somewhat soothing confirmation. (Perverse in the same way I could hold those two thoughts mentioned above.).

Pangloss wrote:know1, the process is called "hoovering", he needs you because he is afraid to be alone, not because he feels or cares for you. He might mistake "needing you" for "love" - as in "if he wants you around, he must surely love you"? You've got to be clear-eyed about this. My advice is to run, run, as fast as you can. Don't waste any more of your life on this man.

Truth T L, if you're retired, you should consider going into therapeutic work to bat for "our side", the Nons, because we really are clueless about NPD..

@Pangloss - no more time wasted. After the horrible gaslighting, projecting, and put down I almost felt as empty inside as him so I had to cut ties and focus on healing.

I must agree that "Truth too late" perception has been tremendously helpful for a non to understand someone with NPD thought process. We have all gone through similar experiences. Your N's text message was so similar to the messages I would receive from my ex N. Sadly my ex N felt he owed no apologies to me and I should apologize to him for having to go there with me. Makes me upset thinking about everything he put me through.

Dear Truth Too Late,

I am wary of burdening you too much with my problems. I can see you are acting very much as a counsellor here and I can only say I am lucky to have your insight, that I do really appreciate the time you are taking to write back to me and I am sorry in advance for burdening you.

I know it seems masochistic to be so fixated on repairing things with my bf but I understand where that deep neediness comes from. I grew up with a very difficult father who was both N and very depressive.
He is a college professor.

I was always very isolated as we could not have people back to the house because of the daily rows with my mum. I was her protector when he would have violent rages. We lurched from crisis to crisis and it made me both very lonely and depressed. My brother no longer speaks to my dad. I am the one in the family who must look after both parents and I often cannot relax.

The only way I could survive was to move out of home at 17, eventually becoming an artist and youth worker. I am I think pathologically altruistic. I feel a great pressure to be a kind person (or maybe it is a fear of rejection) but this was drummed into me via religion when I was a child.

About 5 years ago my mum suddenly got very sick and had to have emergency heart surgery which saved her life. I now take care of her and we live together, she had to separate from my dad who had a nervous breakdown. I love her very much, she is an extremely kind person and we are especially close because she is an artistic person. I have a deep fear of losing her because I came so close before. I don't perceive relationships or life in the same way anymore. I feel life is fragile.

That extra fear of losing my mum has coincided with the relationship with my boyfriend timing wise. So I know that I have relied on/ escaped to his warmth, his strong personality, and his affection to shore myself up. The withdrawal of that affection is very painful to me.

I am a strong person in many ways but I don't want to have therapy anymore. I don't believe therapy is always a positive thing- it depends hugely on the therapist and on the approach. I know my own vulnerabilities after seeing psychologists and psychodynamic therapists for years but I think the fear of losing my mum- my only close support- has had a prolonged impact on me, making me even more anxious. It is a natural reaction to the trauma of the 8 months in hospital 5 years ago. I understand that very well but the feelings are nigh on impossible to permanently subdue. Losing her is an ever-present daily anxiety.

If you want to understand him, you have a lot of reading to do. But, the basic premise is "mirrors." If you keep that *literally* in mind everything else is easy to understand. He can't comfort and reconcile himself to reality the way normal people can. He needs to see reflections of himself in others. There is a parallel universe occurring in his head which he believes is just his "inner voice" or conscience -- like anyone has. He doesn't realize it's something that has developed a life of its own and supersedes reality in many ways.

I read Malignant Self-Love by Sam Vaknin and two other books since I saw your message. I have become deeply anxious and upset, infact grief comes in waves and is very hard to cope with.

They key question I have after reading all the classic symptoms and behaviours is how do I know if my boyfriend has devalued and discarded me permanently or if he is punishing me but does not want the relationship to end/ will rekindle?

I followed the advise in a book called 'disarming the narcissist' by Wendy Behary. I wrote him an apology for being thoughtless and for not thinking of his feelings and saying I understood that he was upset with me and I didn't mean to hurt him. That I admire him a great deal.

I am aware that this is very pandering but I was feeling so desperate and I hoped that it might build a bridge. He read the message and did not write back and then I think marked it unread. I saw it ticked and then the tick had disappeared.

So now I feel more down than ever. In the past there have been long periods of weeks where he was angry with me and wouldn't respond to calls or texts or would write something curt. It must have happened 5 or 6 times and stretched out over a couple of months. How do I know if he is trying to drop me totally or if it will go the way of the previous times?

Before this happened, a couple of weeks before he mentioned that he had found out something dramatic about his ex-wife.(He can be rather histrionic). He also cut off a male ex-lover/friend who wanted to go to a college reunion with him. Someone he's known for 30 years.

In other words, he has seemed in a very 'cutting off' mood of late. I don't know if his ex-wife is back in his life in some way. It has been a month now since he sent me the text, 'I'm so checked out of you right now'. But he didn't reply to my follow up text asking if this meant the relationship was over.

If he doesn't want to be with me why won't he end it. Why does he want to look like he has not read my message? Is he avoiding me, hoping I will stop contacting him?

In the meantime, I have been trying really hard to get my emotions under control and have built my own website, continued applying for grants. I have been trying hard to re-establish some self-confidence. I am on SSRI's anyway and have been for years so I recognise the symptoms I am having and I'm trying to stop myself from getting lower using all the strategies I can. The only thing that is keeping me going is knowing that he might be in touch but with every rejection I am getting more and more worried that is the final discarding. It has been 4 years and I love him.

First, I'm sorry you're struggling with this. You recognize your situation is different because you have other things going on with yourself. I can't help with that. Maybe someone else can. It seems like the one of the forums around here could offer help in that area. I don't know which one. Dependency comes to mind. Avoidance? (Avoiding the reality that this guy's not going to be what you need?).

Is there some reason you can't get on a dating site and find *someone* to fill the void?

With that in mind, my following answers to your questions aren't what you want to hear. If you can't handle it right now, you might stop here until you feel better.

Katie35 wrote:how do I know if my boyfriend has devalued and discarded me permanently or if he is punishing me but does not want the relationship to end/ will rekindle?

How do I know if he is trying to drop me totally or if it will go the way of the previous times?

If he doesn't want to be with me why won't he end it. Why does he want to look like he has not read my message? Is he avoiding me, hoping I will stop contacting him?

If he's like me, those questions all involve the same thing. But, the bolded bit is the crux of the matter. He won't end it as long as he can keep recycling it. That's the cruelty of NPD (in my case). The more you want him (and show it), the more disgusted he will become. The more you give up and move on, the more he'll want you.

It's a mirror. It's not what you think it is. The only way it can end is if you end it. Eventually, he'll test you. If you reply like "finally, thank you, I've been waiting. Listen, I'm so sorry.... I'll do anything...." he'll probably pull away again (further)... to see if you'll end it that way.

He's ending it. But, he's doing it through you.

If you play hard to get (or genuinely move on) he'll suddenly revalue you and be remarkably available. You could end it then to. (If you did, you might be able to get him to see what's wrong with him, if you don't let it go back to how it was.).

The problem is: there's no end because there was no beginning. If he's like me, he's living in his own head. It began (in his head) the same way it's ending. You just didn't know it.

Katie35 wrote:The only thing that is keeping me going is knowing that he might be in touch but with every rejection I am getting more and more worried that is the final discarding. It has been 4 years and I love him.

If he's like me, the only discarding that will be final is the one you call final. They're just going to become longer and colder to the extent you crave the opposite (in opposition to hating yourself for giving him everything). There won't even be a condescending (yet humane): "It's me, not you. I'm sorry. But, we're not right for each other." (He's telling you that with his actions.).

Truth too late wrote:

If he doesn't want to be with me why won't he end it. Why does he want to look like he has not read my message? Is he avoiding me, hoping I will stop contacting him?

... the bolded bit is the crux of the matter. He won't end it as long as he can keep recycling it. That's the cruelty of NPD (in my case). The more you want him (and show it), the more disgusted he will become. The more you give up and move on, the more he'll want you.

It's a mirror.

I was thinking about what I wrote above. That ties into the Pride/Shame thread concerning the greek mythology behind the disorder's name. It's not just a mirror. It's an echo.

Think about it.

When you want the N, he doesn't want you. The mirror is flawed, it can never reflect his perfection. But, he gains pleasure from the mirror trying. (hubris, pleasure in another's pain.).

When you don't want the N, he wants you. He remains in your life as an echo. The longer you echo back, the cycle continues.

I don't think Echo gets the recognition she deserves:

== Brief background:
Echo was the nymph who fell in love with Narcissus. Her speech was limited to repeating only the last few words she heard. She pined for (followed) Narcissus. He sensed her interest, calling out: "who's there?" Unable to speak her feelings for him, she answered: "Who's there?" He replied, "come here," only to be told the same.

Narcissus rejected Echo, who was forced to watch him fall in love with himself, passing away due to neglect of himself (his health, in love only with a mental image of himself). Echo's form withered away into nothing more than an echo.

== Back to my point:
Nons seem to focus on the offense of being objectified into a mirror. The symbolism is well understood (due to the connection to the well known myth). But, hoovering is the echo part. You guys are constantly required to repeat the last few words you heard (a level of emotion from the past, a confirmation of the hurt we caused.). It's not a relationship, it's "tell me again." (This might be why the movie Memento resonated with me the way it did. The short-term memory, getting confused about who's who. Needing a reminder and not caring about how it's being manufactured.).

Nons think it's a genuine profession (a change of heart). Or you wonder why it's happening. It's as simple as the myth for which it is named.

Remember as a child when you learned how echos worked? And how you would strain to hear one more echo? You'd yell louder, and louder to see if that might produce more?

That's what you do when you give into hoovering. It's just someone who hears their echo and is hubristic about it (derives pleasure from it) -- as he gazes at his own reflection which is no longer connected to you in a real way. From a canyon. No form. Just an intriguing presence which will repeat back what was emotionally spoken -- regardless of the substance. (I.e., it could be pain, or regret, or anger, curiosity. It doesn't matter. The reflection lives. I can answer those unfortunate misunderstandings. If you only knew how much I love you (as I'm gazing at my now-confirmed my reflection isn't just a reflection.).

I think it's interesting because you guys often don't get the "mirror" concept. How an N is looking to you to mirror him back to himself. But, the "echo" part is the same. You guys might identify more with that part because that's what you feel the effect of most (it seems). Being called upon to repeat the emotions banked up in your by a previous over-valuation.

Maybe this stuff doesn't seem like a revelation to anyone else. But, I felt enlightened when I thought this through.

It was like my recent understanding of hubris (in that Pride/Shame thread) -- which led me to reconsider my understanding of the larger myth. That's when I realized Echo has a large role in the hoovering process. It explains how there can be joy from hurting the non. Narcissus is looking at himself as the echo gives the reflection life.

Maybe that's why it seems so bi-polar? in the hoovering phase it's less the mirror, but more the seductive solicitation. "Who's there?" A sensitivity you're not accustomed to. That's Echo, in my opinion. When the N doesn't like you, so-called "splits" you, they have enough "echo" going to enjoy the reflection as an animated person with a recent reputation.

I stayed for 14 years with the NPD in my life and I wish I didn't. I can understand how someone who didn't know about NPD would stay because they didn't know what they are facing, I stayed and toughed it out because I didn't trust my own feelings, my desire to leave, and deferred to my friends, Christians who do not believe in divorces, who all gave me the WRONG advice "There are worse men.", "He's not so bad, don't expect perfection." "Don't you think it takes two to tango? Don't you think you too had a role to play in the fights and conflicts? You're not owning up to your faults."

The worst thing I did was to ask a coupe of really good friends to intercede, to talk to K, who as of course absolutely charming and then TURNED my friends against me by telling them lies and partial accounts.

It's not until I was so desperately unhappy that I started Googling and found out about NPD. It still took me 2 years to reach this point, even though every fiber in my body was screaming to leave.

I just hope this serves as a warning...things will only get worse, it won't improve until he recognizes his condition and sees a good therapist, it will ALWAYS be your fault, you will always be the evil B no matter what you do.

Occasionally, we get glimpses of a "real" voice, but it is fleeting and is buried, some of them never to see the light of day. This baits us to keep working and working at it, but for most of us, it's futile.

Thanks to katie35, I listened to Wendy Behary, this interview is particularly helpful. She works with NPD clients, but even then, she advised caution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM_8l71cMzU

Truth, what you wrote is almost like a script that is almost prescient, there's no normalcy possible. I'm patiently waiting for my visa, buy my plane ticket and get out of hell, and sure enough he put in his utmost hoovering efforts, even pretended to want to listen to some NPD broadcasts, too lazy to actually read any literature, but of course just a while ago he exploded over a simple request to listen to something on parenting. Back to square one, with kids upset at me.

I let my No Contact rule falter, my "grey mountain" demeanor was lifted, because he showed A LITTLE TENDERNESS and then blam....

Do you have any suggestions how to get through the remainder days? I have 2 months until I get myself out of the door.

@ TTL- I mentioned a few days ago that my ex N has been hoovering since I have gone NC for 6 weeks. Each week his attempts seem to be more desperate. I am also starting to get calls from unknown numbers. Yesterday he sent me a picture. I responded for the first time and said hello I hope you are taking care of yourself and continuing your schooling and have a great week. He replied with “I hope you are doing the same and school has been okay just trying to get through it.” Then he goes on to ask “you should let me know if we’re going on a cruise in October or not. On me”, “Do you want to? Where to this time?” and “I’ll have to plan it for October”. I responded with “Why do you want to take me on a cruise?”…He never replied back. I didn’t bother sending another text message or calling. Was that an attempt to get supply? Is he trying to hoover me back in with offering a vacation months from now only to come back and try to abuse me up till that date? Could this possible be an attempt to hoover me back in while abusing someone else he has now as his “secondary” supply. I don’t know what to think. Before I learned about NPD I didn’t know what was happening. I never met his friends or family in person but he would constantly put them on the phone with me and they would tell me how many nice things they heard about me and I’m such this great person that can’t wait to meet in person. Even a few weeks ago his mother gave me all these accolades but then cautioned me to “take care of myself” and be good to each other. As well mentioned she hopes we remain friends. That was really odd. Sorry for all the questions.

Early in the relationship, I broke it off with K because of several red flags too obvious to miss. When I went back to his apartment to collect my stuff, I saw lots of empty bottles all around and in the trash, whiskey, vodka, serious liquor, as if he would drink himself to death. I felt bad for him and I mistook that for a sign that he truly loved me and I convinced myself to try and stay and make this "love" work...

I haven't mentioned another earlier lover, from a well to do family and whom I now suspect has NPD because he was behaving in the same way and I broke it.

I thought that was the end, and nursed myself emotionally back to health.

We got connected through LinkedIn, and decided to get back in contact as friends. Early last year, he visited my city, he had recently divorced, and I found out that the separation devastated him, he had opened a bar called "Antidote", he named his children after mementos that I immediately understood, based on a cherished book of mine that he stole from me. While I was reeling I couldn't help thinking how devastating I would be if I were the wife?

He is now seeing a therapist and he was the one who started to cue me into the world of NPD and Co-dependents because I mentioned I almost felt like a "martyr" and he told me this should be my "Aha!" moment.

The moral of the story is that they probably value you much more when you are the one who "got away". To this day, I must say his confessions still shake me a little, even though I know I mustn't ever think of him again, now that I know what NPD is. I keep wondering if he felt "love", as it wasn't hoovering since I wasn't even aware of all of this.

So to answer any Nons about NPD lovers, you grow in stature in his eyes, exponentially, in direct relation with the distance you place between yourself and the pwNPD.

He only loves her when he lets her go indeed.

The cruel irony is probably that he will cease loving you the moment you're back in his arms!

know1yourself wrote:I am also starting to get calls from unknown numbers.

I like Google Voice. It's free with a Google Gmail account. You can set it up on a smartphone. I use a Google Nexus. I don't know this part is specific to that phone, but I can define groups of people that I allow to be sent directly to my cell phone. So, as I add people to my contact book (about 1 per year), I can add it to this "group" and when they call it will go to my phone, like it's pre-approved. Otherwise, I have the default for unidentified callers to be "screened." They're prompted to say their name while it rings my phone. I answer, I hear them state their name. I can choose to accept the call or decline it. (And, if it's someone I want to hear from, I can add them to the "send directly to cell" group.

That would be a very handy feature for people who fear being hoovered. But, it's not something you can use after reaching that fear. (If you were on GV, you could remove him from the group, let him state his name, while still answering the phone without fear).

know1yourself wrote: I responded for the first time

Why?

know1yourself wrote:I responded with “Why do you want to take me on a cruise?”…
Why did you care?

know1yourself wrote:He never replied back. I didn’t bother sending another text message or calling. Was that an attempt to get supply? Is he trying to hoover me back in with offering a vacation months from now only to come back and try to abuse me up till that date?

If it were me, I wouldn't describe it that way. I would be getting supply from you answering the phone. More supply from what sounds like cordiality, and even interest. And, bingo, the "I'll take you on a cruise...." got your interest.

I don't think there's any intent to abuse (except on your part, abusing yourself by letting this happen.). He may or may not have someone else. It doesn't matter (you seemed to single it out as a difference). If he has someone, this might have been a way to gauge how well the other person is filling his needs. (They're probably failing now that he got topped off.). If anything, he's abusing that person. Either way, he's orbiting and imagining all the things you want to say to him. He just needs to help you see it. You'll get another.

It's really no different than a normal relationship. If he were really "there" (not NPD, and I don't know that he is or not, I'm comparing to myself) and had interest in you, he'd do all that too. Courting you. Trying to make you feel special. Complimenting you. The behavior isn't wrong. It's just that he's doing it to himself. And it's going to be awhile until you're not filling the need, and the cycle starts again. Push/pull.

He's gazing at his reflection in the pond as he speaks to you. It helps make the image move. It sometimes looks lifelike as the ripples in the water spread. ("Say something."). He's living with the echo now. Polishing the memories, asking you to confirm and revivify them.

I think the question is why you made contact, or cared about the "cruise" love bomb?