Non-Narcissistic Support thread.....

Anybody have read this book:

"Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"
by Margalis Fjelstad



It's not a large book, and since it is from 2013, I think that it has a new updated information about coping with NPD or BPD people. If anybody could give a review?

cureav wrote:Anybody have read this book:

"Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"
by Margalis Fjelstad



It's not a large book, and since it is from 2013, I think that it has a new updated information about coping with NPD or BPD people. If anybody could give a review?

That book may tell you how to get away, but I don't think anyone can tell someone to stop loving. To get away from my BPD was a tragedy, because despite his abuse he claimed he still loved and needed me. Hardest thing ever. To get away from a narcissist is a little easier physically but not psychologically. They may imprint that they were there for you and understood you like no one else, until they decided they needed different supply. It's two kinds of hard. ..crawling out of grasping, despite your own love and attachments, and being able to stop loving psychologically a person who apparently identified with you. ...narcissistic love is addictive because you feel understood, they can only love you because they think you are like them, whether you are part of the same establishment or have similar childhood memories, they monopolize on your sameness. And if you are also disordered, you wonder why it couldn't last with at least one of these two people.

Thanks a lot for your opinions, Marmotini.

Marmotini wrote:They may imprint that they were there for you and understood you like no one else, until they decided they needed different supply. It's two kinds of hard. ..crawling out of grasping, despite your own love and attachments, and being able to stop loving psychologically a person who apparently identified with you. ...narcissistic love is addictive because you feel understood, they can only love you because they think you are like them, whether you are part of the same establishment or have similar childhood memories, they monopolize on your sameness.

Sad but very insightful and true. It makes sense why moving forward and beyond that relationship makes it hard.

cureav wrote:Anybody have read this book:

"Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"
by Margalis Fjelstad

It's not a large book, and since it is from 2013, I think that it has a new updated information about coping with NPD or BPD people. If anybody could give a review?

Thanks for bringing up this book. After reading a few pages on Google book, I decided to purchase a Kindle version and have read through it quickly. Here's my review of it:

It is a useful, straight-talk type of book that truly helps to untangle many of those knots of incomprehension and anguish that Nons incessantly play over and over in their heads - it describes in simple, easy to comprehend terms what are BD/NPD and what you can expect if you are involved in the role of Caretaker with these 2 personalities at home. Interestingly, while they are different in nature, their effects are similar for those who live closely with them.

I was a bit shocked when the Fjelstad made it plain that these are mental illnesses...I thought personality disorders are pathologies and not really in the same league. However, upon reflection, the warped reality, the incurable nature of the PDs might qualify.

As a manual to clarify the situation, in effect telling the reader to give up ALL hope for change from the pwBD/NPD, it is convincing. It describes some steps and processes to cope with slowly separating oneself from the role of Caregiver. However, this is where I wish Fjelstad had gone into more detail about these steps and processes with the same attention she went into the description of the PDs. She is a therapist, and could have offered more insightful advice. I understand that Caregivers are all different, but the steps she advocated are too vague, of the go to the spa, make friends, ladies' journal variety. I wish there were more substance towards the end, and I am somewhat lost as to the concrete steps to take to move forward.

In all, I would recommend it as it really helps to lead you out of the fog, clarify what goes on in this Caregiver-PD dynamic, and shows you the futility and insanity of this dance.

This is going to sound odd and I hope it doesn't offend anybody.

First I'm going to say something which may sound patronising: I don't actually think that everybody diagnosed with NPD are the same or that they are all out to ruin lives all over the place. I've seen all the articles online which demonise rather than try to understand and that must be more than exhausting.

My concern:

My ex's father sounds as if he has enough traits to be NPD with a twist of something else which I haven't quite put my finger on. He's not a person I would like to meet and domestically abused the family when my ex was young. I also suspect that my ex picked up some traits.

While from the sounds of it my ex's father would probably happily agree that he is a narcissist, my ex wanders around like a a silent tornado. I think he has C-PTSD but also quite a few NPD symptoms. I'm not sure if they are enough to put him in the category.

Even though I was dumped because he couldn't handle our mental health problems (though focuses on his as I guess is to be expected), I still care about him as an individual. I don't know if we will ever talk again on my own decision but because I think he goes about all this unknowingly, I believe he will find himself in trouble. There were one or two crimes against me which were nebulous enough for me not to take to the authorities. However, while I explained over and over before I cut contact, he said nothing on them.

I know I can't force him to bring up the trait possibility in therapy if he sees them. I'm wondering if there is any way people would suggest to encourage it? I don't think people are good/evil and I worry he will waste his positive by strolling into a negative without thinking and wind up in jail.

Difficult to know why I care and I don't even know what the general community feels about therapy. I know it is generally not that popular with personality disorders. To be honest, it isn't thrilling to me either but there I am.

So I suppose I am asking if it is possible to talk to somebody with traits in a manner that is potentially going to make them bring it up in therapy?


I suppose I should list them to see if I'm in the right place. My apologies if I have this wrong and if they come across harshly. I have many PD friends and I hate the thought of being insensitive to a group. Some of it will be scrambled with other things:

- Gas-lighting

- Saying one thing but immediately saying something entirely different and stating he meant that

- He says that voice tone control is difficult for him so was snapping and yelling, then saying that

- Talked down to me often

- Most conversations about feelings when he wasn't just listening to me focused on his and never mentioned mine

- He'd fondle me awake and wouldn't go away unless I told him a few times, as if he needed the rejection

- Told me select things about a few people so I wouldn't like them (later found out the truth)

- Would be very inconsistent in certain matters but on changing his mind he would say he never did

- Almost all exes said he wanted them to "mother" them and deal with his severe spread psoriasis (I didn't mind helping putting on the creams)

- He's very paranoid and would always encourage me to see the worst in somebody's actions

- Loves being the game master and doesn't so much enjoy playing; I can't tell if this is because everybody has to defer to him or because of how much praise he receives

- He almost screamed at me that pride is all he has when I questioned the usefulness after him telling me he has a problem with it

- Although he's constantly complaining about how his lovely (it is lovely) long hair is going odd at the top from psoriasis, he brushes it a lot before going out even when it doesn't need to be touched

- He would shift blame onto me (his psoriasis came back due to me, he couldn't get on buses due to me, etc)

- He'd pick one word out of a complaint which was then used out of context to tell me off

- He fished for compliments through self-deprecation

- Temper could be explosive

- I'm not entirely certain about his empathy. I'm being tested for ASD soon and I have delayed empathy. I will often struggle with cognitive. He can seem really charming and caring, but the later appear cold and vindictive

- I think he feels he is high up there in practitioners of magick and told me a lot about all the different powerful wards and spells he had in the house. He made a thought-form of Aleister Crowley and pinned it behind a picture as he was "sick of his nonsense" and has kept this thought-form their for years. The idea of keeping even a form of "The Great Beast" (likely NPD himself) seems rather grandiose to me

- I feel that certain expectations were unfair and even though he mostly wouldn't push, he would sulk and then deny he was sulking

- He began a relationship with me and at least two of his other exes through exploitative means (alcohol for sex and getting with one when she was just off the psych ward). The other two exes I know of are vulnerable people so he may have done that to them as well. Almost all still care for him to some degree

- Some people say he seems quiet. I think I was always attracted to him but never went near for years. He seemed a bit aloof

- He death-stared his ex so badly that she left the party after she accepted a kiss from me (this was before we were together). He liked me but didn't really talk to me so I don't really know what that was about

- I was told I was too sensitive, etc. a lot


Maybe there is a lot of BPD-like traits to this? Or C-PTSD? His father fits like a glove but my ex's higher self esteem suffers more and he hits the lows harder.

NyxBean wrote:First I'm going to say something which may sound patronising: I don't actually think that everybody diagnosed with NPD are the same or that they are all out to ruin lives all over the place. I've seen all the articles online which demonise rather than try to understand and that must be more than exhausting.

I definitely agree with that. It's like an infant doesn't intend to poop on your new sofa. It's just that nons see an adult pooping on sofas and it's natural to believe it's something more than involuntary behavior. Where it goes very wrong is when the non gets involved in the long-term push/pull ("it's poo," "it's not!") And then the non is convinced from the bottom of their soul it was deliberate.

What they're describing is a little more than the infant who satisfies himself with bowel movements, something more like demonic possession (an unseen part of the character).

I would never invalidate a non's experience. They have every reason to see their experience the way they do (or, for relating the experience out of anger, vindictiveness). Some nons I won't engage much because they're stuck in the anger/vindictive interpretation (and maybe having their own traits, which seems to be common: traited people attract traited people). But, the anger/revenge is understandable. It's just not the more interesting part of what's happening.

I might have more to reply to. I just wanted to share my thoughts about that particular topic which I think can be incendiary between the Ns who want to promote the disordered as victims (which is true) and those who have been victimized by the victims (and often themselves too).

Pangloss wrote:I was a bit shocked when the Fjelstad made it plain that these are mental illnesses...I thought personality disorders are pathologies and not really in the same league. However, upon reflection, the warped reality, the incurable nature of the PDs might qualify.

I think that's what I've been picturing as the "demonic possession" meme. It's definitely an explainable illness. I'm not trying to diminish it. But, "mental illness" in today's touchy-feely "don't be too judgemental, everyone's different" might sound like merely the color of someone's parachute. However, it really is how possession has been portrayed in movies and literature. It is a strange compulsion and disconnect from reality. A barrier that is perceptible, but seen as part of the self, surrendered to as the self.

The one thing I disagree with is that it can't be significantly improved. However, it's difficult to get the N to that point of admitting their problem and having the appropriate measure of revulsion to it, facing the pain of dismantling the ego machine. Even if they can reach that point, continuing to be with them could sidetrack what they have to face.

I think that's something Vaknin doesn't give as much attention to. (But, then, the hopeless treatment he gives it is also the punishing wake-up call an N has to face.). So, for all intents and purposes, it is pointless. In the timeframe under discussion, it's hopeless.

NyxBean wrote:So I suppose I am asking if it is possible to talk to somebody with traits in a manner that is potentially going to make them bring it up in therapy?

I may not understand. You're not seeing him? He's gone silent with you, or you're "no contact" with him? He's in therapy because he knows he has a problem? And, you want to tell him what to say in therapy?

If he weren't in therapy (didn't admit he has a problem), I can think of a couple ways to plant seeds which an N will eventually fall back on when things get bad enough. (Perhaps even a way to make it bad enough at that moment.).

But, if he's in therapy, there's nothing you can do unless he wants to talk about it with you. If you two were speaking, there might be a way to ask him if he'd like to know what you think he should mention to his therapist. But, if you're not speaking, I think it would be counter-productive to contact him with that suggestion. Kind of like hoovering without him having to initiate it.

If he weren't in therapy, telling him what to say in therapy would be over-the-top. It could only be planting small seeds that may touch that subtle awareness he has (occasionally) that something's wrong. Something I could catch in the corner of my eye occasionally.

Truth too late wrote:*what you said*

Initially he was no contact.

He then re-established. Lots of people had tried to point to me being upset but he ignored them all until my flatmate/carer finally threw his phone at me and let me text.

Then it was all "let's be friends".

I tried to suggest an extremely slow reconciliation which would mean months of basically just internet now and again communication, slowly leading up to working out where we were romantically. He originally said he wasn't adverse to that but we had a disagreement on the terminology. He told me to write down what I meant but kept swinging between saying it was worth it as he'd read and consider, and then saying it wasn't because he would probably not change his mind. I think he did that cycle four times before we got of the phone.

I was upset but I tried to write out the idea anyway, even though I felt maybe another month of no contact and then just try to be friends would be best. He'd told me to write it and he'd read it so I figured it was worth a shot. Unfortunately I found myself writing about confusion over what was meant on the phone, so I had to phone to clarify so I didn't waste time on that.

On the phone he denied what he said, told me he had been clear although almost every other conversation I've had with him he speaks about not saying the right words, and basically said he hadn't implied anything, which may have been true but seeing as he believes I will be diagnosed with aspergers, it didn't make sense.

I hung up, got angry, sent some angry texts, felt guilty the next day, dropped into a deep depressive episode.

My carer got him on the phone as I felt I needed to speak to him but didn't understand why (alexithymia?). I apologised greatly for what I had said and asked if there was anything I was missing so I could cover it. He didn't say. He kept angry talking but I was numb so responded calmly. He said 9 months no contact, then acquaintances perhaps after meeting at the convention, then several years until friends. It was made as an offer and awaited response.

I told him that is not how I function. By that time I will have had to block him out of me and I will feel nothing when he wants to shake hands. As an agoraphobic, time moves slowly, so you can basically triple any time scale. I said if that was what he was proposing then I would have to go no contact for good.

I said I was hanging up and angry voice switched to a sickly sweet voice that said he hoped I would receive help through therapy. Levelly, I told him that I hoped he would work out who he really is through therapy (33 years old). He said overly wistful that he hoped so too. Then I hung up.

Before all of that I had tried to explain in various ways how his father's treatment of him might have affected him, gave him support resources, let him know about the C-PTSD ones I use, pointed out as balanced as I could what were issues and the most I got was "there's nothing I can say to that".

For the sexual assault by inability to consent due intoxication which occurred as the beginning of the relationship, I had tried to push it away as just a misunderstanding even though he was sober when I was almost black out. He seemed so nice, he had been asking how I was constantly for a few months, surely he wouldn't hurt me? He would grope and keep doing it until basically forcing me to reject him by asking me if he should leave as he couldn't control himself. Almost every morning and sometimes he'd ask 3 times. Moving away or actually pushing his hands away wasn't enough and I couldn't speak straight away. I have a lot of meds so if woken unnaturally, I'm a bit derpy for the first while.

I would bring up the beginning issue throughout the relationship when annoyed, not as a tactic but because it would pop into my head and I'd realise I couldn't remember a damn thing about that night. The only time I've managed to get him to state anything on that was the last or second last phone call when he angrily said "it was wrong" but immediately after said it wasn't right to let the relationship happen. He knew before that night that I was kind of dating his ex and I also didn't want casual sex. He denied knowing it recently of course, but I have it on fb still. So I don't think he's sorry for me turning up already drunk and him giving me more drink and drinking a little himself. All the other male friends I spoke to said they'd have put me to bed if I'd have shown up as I did. He claims to have thought I was fine but my typing was messy before heading over and my carer said I was bumping into stuff. I also apparently spilled my first drink there all over myself.


So I established no contact for not taking his suggestion. I was going to look for some sort of compromise but then I realised that I'd said everything I could to him about what I could see. I've just emailed, reiterated that I've said everything, said I have corroboration from exes of patterns, told him if he wants to ever talk he can phone me from a week's time to a month and a half's.

I know that I can't really get him to say anything and that email is basically "I'm washing my hands off you unless you perform a magic trick and not be yourself".


Although for clarification, people without any likely traits have been as awful or worse to me, so this isn't really about NPD any more. I've given up. So thanks for listening and such, as well as being polite. I always get surprised on support forums as I'm used to messaging boards where everybody goes for the throat.

I hope I cleared up confusion. I'm taking no further action and will be wary if he does phone, which he really won't as he is avoidant.

Goodbye and I hope conversations go well or something equally as relevant but not so socially awkward.

This message board helped me to see that as Nons, we must focus on our responsibility for being needy and easily manipulated. In my relationship with a Narc, I believe I was extremely codependent, I had my own issues. I was just like so many of you, feeling sad, dejected, angry and broken after the discard.
I recognize now that I needed to take responsibilities for myself, my life, my feelings. I realize now I had issues that made me needy and codependent, and I sought counseling. I ask you, look in the mirror... what are your issues? You know there were red flags and warning signs but you chose to believe the words which clearly conflicted with their actions from time to time. You stayed because you wanted to, and *you* chose to hang on when all signs pointed the other way.
As I read the posts of Narcs, I see that they suffer in their own way, and they have found a way to escape pain and find some sort of solace from it, and through their actions, they often leave casualties in their wake. So be it, I'm not going to be one of those casualties ever again.
It took me a long while to realize this. I was deep into the victim mentality and suffered greatly. I've come to see that it was just a way to avoid looking at myself and what I needed to change.