Non-Borderline Support thread.....

Hi everyone!

I've been dating my girl for six months now, we've been through ups and downs the whole time, most of the times because of things that involved confidence ( saw her sending messages with sexual content to other folks, saying that she wanted to see them soon and other stuff like that), all the times I confronted her about these, she tried to put the blame on me, like I was wrong asking about it, that it was just the way she talked with some friends, even though I asked it in a very calm way. At first, I thought she needed this kind of relation with some people she had on her life prior our relationship, maybe because they knew her like that and she doesn't want to lose them by stoping these kind of language, maybe because she needs the attention. I know she tell wrong stuff to her friends about me, when we argue she tell them a bunch of lies, at first I thought it was the way of her seeing the world, like if I say something in a wrong tone, she perceives it in another way, but then I accidentally saw some messages she was sending and they were some real lies, making me look like a unsupportive and bad person.

Her relationship on facebook was on custom since the begginning, just like our photos together, she hides our relation to 40+ people, some of them I know, some I don't, but I know they don't know we date. She had panic attacks when confronted. ( or faked them as she told me later on ).

Anyway, we had a fight, and she cheated on me with a guy from her work, then hid our relationship status to everyone but me. (she started living in my house with my family as soon as we started our relationship - stayed here until got a place to her own a few days ago). When I found out about the cheating, I couldn't believe, because I used to do everything on my power to make her happy, picked her up on work, made special dinners on random days, painted things for her, were there to listen her, and I knew we were going through a weird phase ( by that time I didn't knew she had BPD, she knew through her psychologist but wasn't really aware of it, after she told me that I started researching it more)

I didn't tell her right away about the cheating because I was trying to understand why she did it, maybe because of lack of attention (even though I was always there, we were living together and we did almost everything together, never left her home alone or left her alone), felt left behind, maybe with the fights she thought we would break up and started to search someone to fulfill her needs. After one month living in this situation, I told her I knew everything and that she knew I knew about it. She told me I was the first to caught her in a lie like that and in such a calm and firm way, told me she was hurt about the situation because she hurt me and that loved me more because of me playing her manipulative game and winning over her - her words. That I was the most important person in her world. I know she betrayed me with more than this person in that time, even with one friend she insists that they never hook up.

I told her I needed some time alone to see If I could get over it, she admited most of our fights and argues were just her manipulation working, that she couldn't blame BDP for it and takes responsability and was ok if I left her and that she doesn't want to be like that anymore and that she realized it after what she did to me and how she got caught, and what her mind made her go through - like alucinating that I was following her on the streets and things like that. She is now going to the psych and therapy, taking her meds . We expend another week together to see how things would go, she kept trying to use emotional abuse and manipulation to lure me to not have this time.

Anyway, the point is, how am I supposed to know if this is really real or just a way to keep me in until we go back to our normal? There is a way to know that? I guess I must have a bunch of codependent traits. I'm feeling real empty and without force right now, I really love her and try to be there, I went to the hospital all the times, listened her, made all in my hands to keep her satisfied. But all the lies, small and big ones, manipulation and abuse are tearing me apart. I want to stay, but I don't know if I can.



Sorry about bad english, haha

Hey goodmorning,

It is a mistake to bringing someone who is emotionally unstable and who you don't know well to your place, but I can't blame you because I did the same thing multiple times. I know how good can the closeness feel.

I have one thing to share which may help you to feel better about her cheating. Well, at least if you are an evolutionist. Here it is... If you study human origins, you'll learn that humans are not monogamous species. 10k years ago, before agriculture, humans around the world were mostly polygamous. Agriculture allowed the boom of human population, spreading it through all world, but also introduced radical changes in our living, which we are still trying to adapt to. And monogamy is just one of the changes in our society. But we haven't really adapted to it yet because 10k years isn't enough for our genes to adapt. You'll find all kinds of evidence in the book "Sex at Dawn".

Yet, monogamy is not a rule. First of, vast majority of people aren't monogamous. Most do "serial monogamy" for most of their young years - it's when have just one partner at a time, but change it frequently. Other smaller percentage is just non-compromised. Finally there are those who have open relationships. You can see many videos in youtube about people which are plainly happy with their open relationships. For those who have the nerves to withstand it, it can be no problem.

I'm not suggesting you to go into an open relationship or even suggest it for her, because I doubt she would have the nerves for it, but I can suggest you to read books about the subject, such as "Oppening Up" or "The Ethical Slut".

Apart from that, I must note that she has NPD traits. Statistically, around 25% of people diagnosed with BPD also get to be diagnosed with NPD. I'm not stating she is a full narcissist, but she does have traits. You may understand her much better by reading the book "The Object of My Affection is My Reflection".

Finally, I'm sorry for what I'm going to tell you, but she seems to have character flaws, and mental illness is not an excuse for that. For instance, my ex-wife who has BPD traits, has character flaws and lies like an actor. My current BPD partner, however can be quite dangerous when dysregulated, destructive and self-harming, but she has never cheated on me nor told me any significant lie. Because she feels guilty. When she feels like as if she may have been dishonest or unfair with me she becomes extremely anxious day after day, intoxicated with guilt and shame, having trouble to accept herself. It is true that she us unable to put herself in my shoes and notice how is she unfair every day with things such as her verbal abuse, but when her mistakes are obvious enough for her to notice (afterwards when she has cooled off), then she does regret them and even asks for forgiveness. My ex-wife, however, would never feel that way. It is one thing to act under pressure of the fears of abandonment. Acting upon self-guilt is different.

If one day your girl friend came to you spontaneously to confess something she did, because she was feeling too guilty, I would not consider that cheating, but just weakness. However, from what you described, I'm not sure if she cares about being honest and sincere with you. To a certain extent, you can shape her behavior with you for the better by responding in ways that encourage her to be honest (and you seem to be doing that right), but what won't really change the character core she has.

I'm experienced enough now to know if a girl really has feelings for me or if she is more self-interest in what I provide. However, I can't really say from here, based on a single post, if she does love you or if she is just exploiting you. Maybe you can find your answer after reading those books and reflecting a lot. Do your research, not to "fix" your relationship, but to grow yourself emotionally stronger and wise. Btw, those books are available in narrated version through Audible.com site from amazon.

Quick question about people with BPD: it seems that when they are under a lot of pressure and the rage comes out, they say and do very harmful things.

Have they always thought these things and waited for an opportunity to let out their true nature/thoughts, or are these momentary lapses of reason?

I ask because I have a friend who went on a tear a few days ago and the damage might be irrepairable... He said harmful things, not just to me but to my wife, who had never done anything to him.

mo mo wrote:Quick question about people with BPD: it seems that when they are under a lot of pressure and the rage comes out, they say and do very harmful things.

Have they always thought these things and waited for an opportunity to let out their true nature/thoughts, or are these momentary lapses of reason?

I ask because I have a friend who went on a tear a few days ago and the damage might be irrepairable... He said harmful things, not just to me but to my wife, who had never done anything to him.

A little more background info- I had actually written a detailed post of the situation last night but this forum logged me out at one point and everything was lost..

Anyway, I have known this guy for about 20 years. I have seen many ups and downs in his life, and he has opened up to me a lot, though I did have to twist his arm on several occasions. My wife has only lightly associated with him for t years, he never opened himself up to her or ever had any kind of deep meaningful conversation with her.

She is convinced that he has always been an angry, envious, manipulative, and dangerous person. She's convinced that his recent comments are a display of truth, the person he has always been, but hiding to almost everyone for a long time.

She could very well be right, although having known this guy for so long, I do remember him having ambition, being friendly, and I have never known him to be violent. I do know when he gets anxious, which is very easy to trigger, his reactions are not normal. He will either lie about the situation, self deprecate, or start attacking people verbally. He is definitely manipulative though, as he mooched off his parents well into his 30s and only recently got a real job and moved out on his own.

What do you all think? He's having a hard time, or he has always been selfish, manipulative and full of envy?

Hi mo mo,

A person who is afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder is plagued with very intense and extreme emotions. The emotions are so strong, that they are considered a mal-adaptive response to their environment.

For a pwBPD, the world can be very tricky to navigate. When so called everyday events, stresses, irritations crop up, most people can shrug them off without overreacting. For a pwBPD, however, it is not so simple or easy. Many of these so called stressors can trigger strong reactions. Reactions such as anger, or annoyance, or fear or other negative emotions. It is very hard for those people to often control these feelings at the moment they are occurring.

Now, while these may seem inappropriate to you, they are very real to someone with BPD. They are not faking this, or creating drama necessarily for attention. They are actually experiencing these things. They can say or do some very painful and/or harmful things in the heat of these moments. If they are also suffering from anxiety ( a common co-occurrence with BPD) then it can be even more challenging.

The reasons for this are very deep and complex. But one thing is certain, they are not trying to hurt or harm necessarily. Often they will withdraw for a time to compose. They then often feel guilt or shame for their behavior, it does impact them and they do suffer for it. So many times they will leave a relationship or friendship, because of the shame attributed to the behavior. This may actually happen due to caring about another.

Unfortunately, inter-personal relationships are where the brunt of this occurs. Intimate relationships and friendships can be very triggering to someone with BPD. The full range of characteristics can come out, such as black/white thinking, push/pull behavior, anger outbursts, acting out and even self harming. People who are close to them will often suffer these extreme and changing emotional outbursts. It can be difficult to accept.

Now, is this person deliberately being cruel and manipulative? That may certainly be the case. Borderline Personality Disorder is part of a "cluster" of personality disorders. It is often thought that if one has one type of disorder, say BPD, then there is a strong probability of having either traits or another full blown disorder. Narcissism is a common co-morbid diagnosis with BPD.

However, that may not be the case. Each person is different and people who may have Borderline Personality Disorder are different as well. Chances are what your wife perceives is simply his way of coping. Of trying to get his needs met. Of feeling good.

A relationship with someone who has BPD takes compassion, patience and understanding. It takes someone who can "de-personalize" behavior and mood. Someone who can look beyond the behavior at times to see the "good". Now, not everyone can handle this. It is not for everyone. So there is no shame if you and your wife decide it is too much. It all depends really if each side has the ability to adjust to make the relationship work

mo mo wrote:Quick question about people with BPD: it seems that when they are under a lot of pressure and the rage comes out, they say and do very harmful things.

Have they always thought these things and waited for an opportunity to let out their true nature/thoughts, or are these momentary lapses of reason?

I ask because I have a friend who went on a tear a few days ago and the damage might be irrepairable... He said harmful things, not just to me but to my wife, who had never done anything to him.

Some of the $#%^ I say when I'm angry is what I really think, some of it is not. I have a tendency to exaggerate things when I'm emotional, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not. Sometimes when I say things I know are untrue, I kind of start empathizing with my own lies and pretend that they are real, like "ok, I don't really have lung cancer, but what if I did? This person certainly wouldn't care as much as I'd like them to, they are so heartless and inconsiderate." It's somewhat delusional, like you're warping the truth to fit your beliefs.

I hope what I wrote makes sense, it sounds really dumb the way I put it.

mo mo,

Mark has basically said everything you needed to know about BPD. And jerboa made an excellent point, which describes exactly how my BPD partner behaves. So I'd just like to add some personal experience.

When my current partner is angry she says nasty things and can do some cruel things, such as last month when she attempted to kill the fishes on the aquarium. That was to take revenge on me by hurting the feelings of the kids (I was able to save just one fish). And yesterday I think she has finally shown her remorse "for past transgressions". We were returning home she started to ruminate, and I didn't want to hear anything, but still she said "how can you be with me, I am so bad".

He could be feeling so bad because you have a wife and he doesn't. He could be anticipating that you would abandon him because of your wife, and acting out that way so that it seems his choice not yours. Those are just hypotheses.

I would probably not be offended so much if a friend with a disorder got verbal with me, because I know it's part of the disorder. But I would be vigilant if he started to make aggressive comments towards my family members, because I would not ever tolerate him making those comments directly to them, who aren't prepared to withhold that nor have to.

Btw, I'm curious if he's a nice friend most of the time and if this friendship important for you somehow.

Thanks for the input guys.

I have been thinking about this situation for the past few days, because I really think I would have noticed my buddy was capable of such cruelty a long time ago. My wife has a psychology degree and she worked with the mentally ill (she is a teacher now) and she is convinced that he has always been that way, he has always had this monster inside- she's seen it before in many people.

While it may have always been there, I think the difference between now and the time when I originally met him is the size of the list of things that trigger his cruel attitude. When he was fresh out of high school, in college, living the life, there probably wasn't much that bothered him because he had so much potential and his whole life was ahead of him. After college didn't work out, and after he took over 10 years to graduate with a Bachelor's Degree, all while he avoided work and he lived off his parents, his list of insecurities must have grown significantly, and the list of triggering discussions along with it.

He really did not do himself any favors during those years, he convinced people somehow that he was trying to do the right thing, but it was just hard for him due to medicines he was taking. He was incredibly stubborn and did not take anyone's advice. When he finally graduated in his mid 30s and wanted to join the workforce, he wanted to catch up to all of his friends that had been working and earning money for over 10 years. So instead of learning to walk before he could run, he took a very stressful job- and he has just now started to learn some of the harsh realities about life.

So the situation is extra frustrating because not only is he cruel at times to the people that care for him, we all saw this situation coming a long time ago and it could have been avoided if he had listened to us a little.

mo mo,

You haven't specified what kind of cruelty has he made. Cruelty for me would be like killing your dog. If he did something like that then yes I would declare him as cruel. But I'm supposing he has "just" said very harsh things, maybe so embarrassing that you don't even want to remember. In that case he could be reacting to all of the pain that you, unintentionally, made him feel.

Yes, I know you try to help him, but perhaps your wrong judgment of him made him feel deeply invalidated, so he tried to withhold it until he could because he values your friendship, but at a given moment he could not stand it anymore and decided to give away your friendship, acting out in a way that pushed you away. Because breaking up a friendship isn't something he able to do in a "diplomatic way".

I don't mean that it's your fault that he has got worse over time. That should be due to the progression of his illness. But I did find a lot of red flags of invalidation in your two posts, especially in the second. You said a lot of things about his unemployment and seem to judge him as lazy. Like when you said he "mooched off his parents well into his 30s". You may see him as a fully capable adult, but I'm quite sure his laziness comes from the illness.

This video might help you to understand what I'm telling you - The truth about "laziness": https://youtu.be/l4yMz0TAdK4

PsyHealer wrote:mo mo,

You haven't specified what kind of cruelty has he made. Cruelty for me would be like killing your dog. If he did something like that then yes I would declare him as cruel. But I'm supposing he has "just" said very harsh things, maybe so embarrassing that you don't even want to remember. In that case he could be reacting to all of the pain that you, unintentionally, made him feel.

Yes, I know you try to help him, but perhaps your wrong judgment of him made him feel deeply invalidated, so he tried to withhold it until he could because he values your friendship, but at a given moment he could not stand it anymore and decided to give away your friendship, acting out in a way that pushed you away. Because breaking up a friendship isn't something he able to do in a "diplomatic way".

I don't mean that it's your fault that he has got worse over time. That should be due to the progression of his illness. But I did find a lot of red flags of invalidation in your two posts, especially in the second. You said a lot of things about his unemployment and seem to judge him as lazy. Like when you said he "mooched off his parents well into his 30s". You may see him as a fully capable adult, but I'm quite sure his laziness comes from the illness.

This video might help you to understand what I'm telling you - The truth about "laziness": https://youtu.be/l4yMz0TAdK4

Allow me to clarify a little. This site tends to act up and freeze on my PC, device, so I have been trying to keep my posts concise. Keep in mind there are close to 20 years of history here.

I have never judged him or criticized him for what he was going through. If I ever gave advice about situations it was either because he asked for it or because he was explaining a difficult situation and he needed some kind of guidance. I never gave him grief over his living situation and I have always been supportive of his studies and his attempts to find work.

If I'm saying some things that would imply he is lazy, not trying, etc. All I can say is I am sharing the facts. The reason I'm even on this forum is because I care, not because I'm looking to vent my frustration until the next time I see him. At the moment me and my wife cut off ties to him. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what exactly has been happening over the years.

He didn't abandon our friendship, we did. While he was attackig me and my wife it was rather clear he wanted to keep in touch, there were things he said like in the future, etc.

As far as the laziness and manipulation: this goes beyond mere observation. I remember specific conversations we had. One time after he flunked out of two consecutive semesters in school, he ws feeling down, and I asked what he was doing, what his outlook was, etc. He explicitly told me then that his life is easier doing things the way he was doing them. He told me he knowingly lied to everyone about what he was looking to do with his life, that he was not interested in finding work, and he found comfort in the fact that his parents were taking care of everything. His own words! Eventually his parents told him they were looking to sell the house and move to Puerto Rico and around that time I met my wife so he had no choice but to try to straighten out.