Do they still love you after they leave you?

What does the pain feel like for borderlines? Is it a constant empty feeling like depression or is it a knot in their stomach because they fear losing people they love or is it a completely different feeling altogether?

Until one of the BPD forum members responds to this question, you would do well to read some of their posts. Like you, I want to know what it is like so I greatly value the posts by BPD members. They are very articulate and intelligent folks and often write in great detail about how they feel.

she really might have believed she didn't send it? did your ex ever do such things?

Yes, my ex did that about once every two months or so. I kept complaining to our therapist that it seemed like she almost had multiple personalities because she seemed unaware of saying or doing certain things. The therapist, who did not believe in using labels, never explained anything and was next to worthless. She would only say that it is a "thought disorder."

I have since learned from websites such as this that the inability to recollect things is quite common when people dissociate. Because we all do it occasionally, I'm sure you can identify with that. Do you remember that time you were driving and suddenly realized that you could not recall the last ten miles, not even the intersections? And do you remember that time you went to the kitchen for something and, on arriving there, could not recall for a while what you were in there for?

Well, that is dissociation, where your conscious part of your brain is day dreaming a thousand miles away and your subconscious is on autopilot, driving your car or moving your body toward the kitchen. Because BPDs experience far more emotional pain than the rest of us, they dissociate more frequently as a way of escaping it. It therefore seems likely that your friend was sincere when she said she could not recollect sending you the message.

You are making me realize that she is NOT being manipulative.

Of course, your friend could have been lying to cover up her embarrassment over sending the message. I quickly learned with my ex that, if I were determined to separate all the lies from the lapses in memory, I would go crazy trying to tease them apart. So I gave up on that.

As to whether the lies constitute an attempt to manipulate, I would rather say they represent an effort to escape a desperate situation and to survive. Again, this is not to say that BPDs never try to manipulate. I suspect that some of the lying is exactly that. But skilled manipulation requires patience, scheming and planning. In contrast, BPDs are very reactive to whatever emotion is sweeping through them at the moment. So, to the extent they ever try to manipulate, they likely are not very good at it.

hi there. thanks again for such details. i love reading your responses because i feel like you really understand how i feel. i was wondering if you could suggest something i could try at this point. i know there may not be a right or wrong answer, but you have probably tried many different tactics with your ex so maybe you could suggest one of those tactics? In other words, do you suggest i back off, like i have been, and leave most of the initiative contact up to her? When and if she does contact me, should i just be myself (show that i am happy she is around me, say yes to hanging out, ask what she has been up to) or be a little distant so she is not scared off. i dont want to play mind games AT ALL, please dont think that is what i am asking. i am simply wondering if i should say hi, and keep walking instead of stopping and asking how her weekend was, etc. I ask this because she had told me about a month ago she didn't think she could be friends with me, even though she wanted to, because i get too jealous over other close friends. i since have stopped asking about her whereabouts. i was jealous because she would always talk about her former best friend in such a negative way. they had been best friends for years and lived together after college for awhile, and then they didnt talk for 2 years. they met up again by running into each other at verizon. since then, they became facebook friends and started hanging out ALOT. she speaks so highly of her and was degrading me, so i was jealous of thier emotional intimacy. she told me she just felt less nervous around her former best friend. that is hard to process because we were inseperable for the last 18 months. our husbands became "friends" through us and our families celebrated all the holidays together too. it is confusing for me and i dont want to make another big mistake. i know you cant answer this last question accurately because borderlines are individuals and we can't group them into a category, but i highly value your opinion because of your own situation. do you think that my friend will eventually ever be close to me again - where we would go to dinner or a movie without our kids? if you think that could happen, what might be my best approach to try to get back there? The person i really look up to on the internet is AJ Mahari. Have you researched her at all? She is a recovered borderline (as she puts it) and now is a life coach. she has many articles i have read and her advise always seems to be the same- take care of my own codependency issues and depersonalize the devaluation. any thoughts?

oh, one last statement. even though she accuses me of being jealous, and i can admit that i did get jealous, she is VERY jealous of anyone else i talk with. as a matter of fact, so jealous that if i went out with certain friends (2 in particular) she would not talk to me for at least 2 days, which was not our norm. then she would tell me i was crazy and dillusional if i called her on it. maybe she was not jealous, but it really did seem that way by her actions. do you think this was an accurate assumption?

Maybe she was not jealous, but it really did seem that way by her actions.

Marylynn, if your friend actually has strong traits of BPD as you suspect, then yes, it is highly likely she was jealous. Indeed, when she was accusing you of being the jealous one, it could have been because she observed the real jealousy in you -- or it could have been her projection of jealousy she had in herself at the time. Because BPDs fear abandonment so much, they generally will feel threatened by any close friends you have. My ex, for example, was very jealous of my friends and my foster son. As far as I could tell, she was even jealous of my closeness to her own children, fearing that I was staying with her only because I loved them so much.

Do you think that my friend will eventually ever be close to me again - where we would go to dinner or a movie without our kids? if you think that could happen, what might be my best approach to try to get back there?

Marylynn, please don't try to get back there. As I see it, the only circumstance in which you should attempt to reestablish a close friendship with her is if (a) she is sufficiently self aware to know she has BPD, (b) she is going to a good therapist who knows how to guide her and (c) there is sufficient evidence that she is strongly committed to working hard on the therapy for several years at least. Failing that, I would urge any man who is married to her to leave her (as long as there are no children involved).

Of course, you are not married to her. And she does not satisfy any of the three conditions. Moreover, you are codependent like I am and thus are drawn to any person you think really needs you, nevermind the danger to yourself. So, when you ask me what you can do to strengthen such a toxic relationship, there is no way I will help you achieve that goal. I would have to hate you. No, hating you would not be sufficient. I want no part of helping you harm yourself.

Above, I described how it is impossible to build up any good will with a person who has many strong BPD traits unless she is well along the road to recovery and is determined to stay on that path. What part of "impossible to build up any good will" don't you understand? Let me put it another way: the disorder makes it impossible for your friend to trust you. It doesn't matter that she may claim to trust you. She simply cannot do it, which is one reason she fears you will abandon her.

What this implies -- and I learned this the hard way -- is that you can never trust her. She has enormous hurt and rage built up inside her and it can be triggered and start pouring out at any time. That is, you are trying to be "friends" with a woman who desperately wants and needs a friend -- but who is incapable of being a true friend because the emotional storm inside distorts her perception of you. She can turn on you with a vengence at any time. No, she is not evil. Her ability to regulate her own emotions is stuck at the level of young child....not just any young child but, rather, a very angry young child with the intelligence of an adult.

My ex, for example, is a high functioning BPD. She pushed me away with pointless arguments and then pulled me back hundreds of times over 15 years. So it was completely unimaginable to me that she was capable of permanently splitting me black. But that is exactly what she did. The reason is that, as the years go by, the BPD sufferer grows increasingly resentful of your inability to fix her or make her happy. At the same time, her fear of you abandoning her likely will grow. Hence, when codependents like you and me marry a BPD, we never do abandon them.

Instead, after about 15 years, they typically abandon us. And, when they do, they refuse to accept any blame of course. So it gets really nasty. At the very least, you will lose all mutual friends you have with her because, with her being high functioning, none of them know she has BPD. They don't even know what it is. So they will believe all the negative things she says about you. She will be very convincing because she will really believe -- or at least half-believe -- the terrible things she says.

That said, if your codependence is so strong that you simply cannot stay away from her, I urge you to keep your "friendship" with her at the most casual level so that you are not perceived as a threat. To do that, the first thing you do is to stop trying to figure out how to win her back or how to make her feel comfortable around you. Instead, start acting like a normal person around her and stop acting like you are walking on eggshells. Work on building stronger personal boundaries. What you especially want to avoid is enabling behavior like the time she dumped on you and, in an effort to sooth her, you said it was your fault -- which it wasn't.

By the way, the mess you've created for yourself is the same mess I created for myself for 15 years. Of course, my mess got far larger because I'm so much better at building messes and had so much more time. It's called enmeshment, which occurs when you start feeling strongly that her feelings and welfare are the same as your own. I am still working on that one. I hope you do too.

Wow - so that was ALOT! lol! i wish i could back off a bit, and i am truly trying to set boundaries, but it is hard because of my codependant issues. i know you had similar feelings for a person with bpd so i know you can understand which so many other people cannot seem to even fathom why she is so important to me. i also want to thank you for being very informative, supportive and helpful. i will try my hardest to try to be one of her casual friends, but i am not sure how that will go because if she does come back to me, i know how i will be. i am so sappy - hate it!! since you won't help me try to be seen as the 'good guy' again i will ask you another question. how did you know you were permanently split black? how long ago did this happen? have you moved on with another relationship or are you content being alone? do you have children, if so how old? i ask these questions because i am wondering what you would do if you were split white again and she begged for your forgiveness. i am guessing you are in therapy and you are stronger than i am at this point, but i was just curious what you would say to her... please don't view me as judgemental or nosey, i am just curious as to how other codependants would respond. it might be easier if i didn't work with her on a daily basis... thanks, as always, for any and all feedback

how did you know you were permanently split black? how long ago did this happen? have you moved on with another relationship or are you content being alone? do you have children, if so how old? i ask these questions because i am wondering what you would do if you were split white again and she begged for your forgiveness.

Marylynn, BPD rages normally last only 5 hours, maybe as long as 36 hours. So I was in shock and denial when my ex didn't return to splitting me white. She had me locked out of my own home for 18 months, which is how long it took to obtain a divorce here. She didn't split me pure black because, after the divorce, she kept calling me every two weeks to do some casual conversation.

After six months of that, she asked why I never called her during that period. And she asked whether we could ever be friends. I explained to her that, because she persisted in believing that I am violent and a frequent liar (her projections) for over two years, we cannot be friends. I explained that my family doesn't believe that, my friends don't believe it, and my worst enemy doesn't even believe it. That was over a year ago and we have not spoken since.

Occassionally, I have a fantasy cross my mind about her coming back and telling me that she now realizes she has BPD and has been doing DBT therapy for the past year. But, of course, that will never happen. So I have started dating some over the past year. My ex turned on me with such a vengence that I now know I will never be able to trust her ever again even though I still love her (in the way that I love my sister and my adult foster son).

Because of ugly things she told her children, I lost 5 stepchildren whom I dearly love. I had helped put the two youngest through college. I also lost five grandkids I adored. Two years after the separation, one of my stepkids (the oldest) came back into my life when she started to realize how much her 3 kids missed me.

you won't help me try to be seen as the 'good guy'

No, I won't help because I believe you are putting yourself in danger when you try to reestablish a relationship with your coworker. I am hesitant to refer to her as your "friend" because she is not trying to heal herself and thus can turn on you -- again -- at any time. Codependent folks like us are quite common. So your coworker likely has left a trail of people like you in her wake, as she did with the woman she had been badmouthing for two years and on whom she is now bestowing great praise. Do you remember all the derogatory things she said about her? Well, she likely has been saying pretty much the same about you lately. Trying to get close to a person like that -- especially when you have to work with her -- is skating on very thin ice.

Yet, since you are so determined to do it, I will at least point you in the direction of an intelligent group of like-minded thinkers who share tips with each other on how to walk on egg shells with a BPD sufferer who will not acknowledge having the disorder, much less try to improve. The group is at BPDfamily.com/discussions/message-board.htm, where you will find separate message boards for Nons who are leaving, who are undecided, and who are staying. The "staying" board is the one you want. But, if you were to ask me, the "leaving" board is the one you should read. Sorry, Marylynn, I just couldn't help myself there.

I am a borderline and i have just managed to break up my relationship with all my nonsense. I have driven away partner after partner and all my friends too. I just wanted you to know.. that even when im splitting... feeling as much hatred as i can feel.. overwhelmed and drowning in it... underneath.. yes-there is still love. and a desperate wish to stop being so mean... but once its started i dont know how to stop it. im crying as i type this because you seem like a good person.. and i know its hard... but please keep on loving her. just keep on.
She loves you even when she hates you. And she doesnt want to be this way, i promise.

Hi DowntownDC and in-recovery,

So... i first saw, downtowndc, that you wrote rages last 5-36 hours. this has mainly been the case. there may be an exception or two, but on the whole, she contacts me, in one way or another every 2-3 days. i can only imagine your pain of not being contacted as day 3,4,5... and so on came and went. you must have been in complete shock. i would have been. ... and then she wanted to be your friend after the divorce?? that is really hard for me to understand. so... you were split black, but not completely black? this is a REALLY hard concept for me to understand. this is probably beyond my ability. i cannot understand what splitting black means and then splitting white for 10 minutes. i know we had this conversation once before, i dont get it. i was told that she may not make me the devil, but i am definately not good. that is kindof grey, right?? so, i thought it was angel vs. devil from all the websites i have been on. all fuzzy to me... so, i am definately nervous about her destroying my good rep at work by repeating intimate stuff or by making up extreme lies to get people to not like me. part of me knows i should back off, especially from reading your post, but part of me gets really sad. i will check out that website you left me. thanx.

in-recovery,

i am really greatful that you would try to help a non understand borderlines a little better. it is great getting both perspectives. i can relate to downtowndc, but i love hearing your perspective, becausen maybe it will give me insight to my 'friend.' i have some questions if you dont mind answering them to the best of your knowledge. why do you drive away partners and close friends? why do feel compelled to do so? what does the pain of a borderline REALLY feel like? is the pain what actually causes you to split? thank you for acknowledging that i am a good person because i really try hard with her. so hard. harder than anyone else, even her husband. i am codependant and hate it. really hate it. it sux because you are always at someone elses mercy. i find pleasure when people i love are happy, not when i am happy. it is really hard to explain. but it sux.

she would always tell me hurtful things and i would just ignore them and cry at home. she recently has reconnected with her former best friend and now she is on a pedestal again. i hate it. i spent almost 2 years, as downtowndc stated, trying to build up good-will with her. i would hang out whenever she wanted, i would cancel other plans with friends to make her happy, i would buy clothes and presents for her daughter monthy, i would defend her til the end with coworkers, i would compliment her (and mean it), i would lend or just give her money to go to dinner with me or a movie, i would have done anything for her. you know what she did for me?? she would cancel plans, sometimes 5 minutes before leaving the house, sometimes she would completely blow me off, not even calling me to cancel until the next day when she would beg me for forgiveness, she would insult me, and my clothes, and my music, and my other friends, and my relatives and and and... and you know what?? i never cared, so long as she would remain my good friend. i didnt buy her stuff to get material things in return. instead, i wanted non-tangible items like praise or just a simple thank you, that was really nice of you. never happened. but i continued on and on, hoping and praying nightly. she has since split me black and we do not hang out much anymore. we went out for halloween and a few other events with our families, but it is not the same at all. she will contact me every 2-3 days, but i think i am still split black during those 10 minute occurrences because she then doesnt talk to me again for several more days. i want to know, even though she never answered me, was i ever her best friend? was i ever really loved? i still, to this day, put her on a pedestal in my eyes... i just don't show it as often as i used to. i do not initiate contact. i want her, even though downtowndc is scaring me a bit, and is making me rethink stuff which i am thankful for, to come back to me. dont think it will happen. dont know why. i couldnt have been a better friend to her and i am left with nothing but a broken heart and tears. i feel like she just hates me, no love. i dont know how to get her to show me any love. i want to be split white again, but i dont think she thinks i deserve it. it sux, it hurts, and i hate it. i was replaced by her former best friend and really hung out to dry. so...

in-recovery wrote:know its hard... but please keep on loving her. just keep on.

please, i am begging you to answer this, why should i keep loving her when she keeps hating me?? will it be worth it one day or will i be used and thrown away like an unwanted doll. sorry if i seem skeptical, but i love her so much and the hurt and pain has built up for me too over time. please help me understand so i dont give up hope and faith...

She loves you even when she hates you. And she doesnt want to be this way, i promise.

InRecovery, I am so sorry that you are having to struggle to fight this painful disorder. Thank you so much for reaching out to me, in the midst of your pain, to try to comfort me. I appreciate your kind words. And, yes, I agree with your view that a part of my ex loves me even while another part is hating me. Indeed, at the beginning of this thread, a number of us came to that very conclusion.

I also agree with your view that my ex doesn't want to be the way she behaves. I understand that the intense unregulated emotions caused by BPD do distort her perception of me -- to the point that she loses touch with her good feelings about me. The result, however, is that she has done so many mean things to me that I now know I can never trust her except in the very unlikely event she were to heal herself -- an accomplishment she has not even started to work on.

please help me understand so i dont give up hope and faith...

Marylynn, you already understand all you need to know about BPD. That's not your problem. Rather, it's that you don't want to let go. You prefer to remain in denial. Of course, I was the same way. Because I had a relationship that lasted far longer, it took me a year and a half to let go AFTER I had read about BPD on the Internet and knew what I was up against. So, believe me, I do know how you feel.

Knowing something at an intellectual level is not the same thing as internalizing it to the point that you believe it at a gut level. That is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. It is a process that takes time. I am hopeful that, because your relationship was shorter, you will be able to pull free from her before she destroys your reputation in the community or your working relationship with others where you are employed.

At this point, the problem is not your co-worker. She is behaving exactly like she should behave -- that is, she behaves very much like every other person with her combination and intensity of BPD traits. This disorder is pernicious and is so deeply seated in childhood that it is a rare individual who is able to even realize that she suffers from it. But talking about BPD at this point has become nothing more than a distraction because the real problem lies with your codependence -- a problem that you are very much aware of.

I say this not to be judgemental but, rather, to highlight the fact that -- as long as the problem lies with you -- you are the one in control. You can change it. Your action, if you choose wisely, is the solution. The time has come for you to start taking care of yourself and, to do that, you first must stop obsessing about another person's problems as a way to avoid working on your own.

You also must stop expecting your BPD co-worker to behave in ways that are impossible for her to achieve and then, when she fails to meet your absurd expectations, whining to people about how badly you were betrayed. Get over it! Moreover, you must find a way to improve your self esteem without having to depend on her willingness to say "thank you" for your lastest sacrifice.

Those very issues are what I've been working on since I let go of my BPDex about two years ago. I'm still working on them so I would be very pleased if you would join me. It won't be easy but you will find, at every step, that guys like me have already marked the path.

marylynn wrote:please, i am begging you to answer this, why should i keep loving her when she keeps hating me?? will it be worth it one day or will i be used and thrown away like an unwanted doll. sorry if i seem skeptical, but i love her so much and the hurt and pain has built up for me too over time. please help me understand so i dont give up hope and faith...

There is only one person in the world who can answer your question here. You need to ask a person who not only knows everything that's happened in your relationship, but who understands how you feel and what's important to you. That person is you.

You feel powerless because, like Downtown and I, you gave up your power in the relationship. You sat back and gave in to her every single time. Now it's time to take the power back. *cue cheesy 70s glam rock*

You love her. I get it. We all love(d) our partners. But if there's a hard truth I've learned here, it's that while you may have good days and even sometimes good weeks, and it MAY be all worth it some day, that day will be years after the day she said "I need therapy, I really do. Please help me." If she never says that, then your experience will be that of DowntownDC - it's not that she'll throw you away, but that her terror of you abandoning her will finally grow so great that she can't bear to be with you, and she'll cut and run.