Looking to understand Ex-HPD's behaviours!

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

After the second hang out I did start to like the girl somewhat, as I said this time I asked her to hang out (despite all the scary things she said) - it was not on a sexual level though. It was more on 'mental' level. This may sound odd but I saw someone I could experiment and toy with.

The first whiff I got that something was not right (i.e. she pushed away, I had lost whatever control I had) was when I recoiled quickly, giving her the silent treatment after calling her in an attempt to heal the bruise to my ego. I always used the ignore/silence treatment on girls in the past (because they would always come crawling back) and I did the same in this case. When she came begging along again, and more so than the other girls... well my ego became very inflated. I was elated for quite some time.

Did I win though? Not really because in the end while I felt good, I also wasted a lot of time feeding her with drama, which is what she craves.

xdude to your fourth point: During that time that she was attempting to "Hoover" me back in I did everything in my power to avoid/distance myself from becoming part of what I now know is called the fan club. I have said this previously but the idea of being part of such a club is disgusting and repulsive to me. I almost put in too much effort dodging the club. I don't like saying it but knowing that I have been NC with her for 2 months now based on how I treated her badly, and even knowing that she is probably complaining to every one of her fan club members about how I treated her is a deeply satisfying thought to me. This even if she feels she is "winning" by having the fan club members agree with her. Just the thought of her using others as a crutch to feel better after how I treated her is what I find truly satisfying. But you're right... in the end they truly have more power because a lot of them probably just don't care, and I know this.

I hope no one thinks less of me based on some of the things I am saying. I understand this can come across as extremely egocentric and even "sick".

Well... they are definitely like fire! And fire can be fun to play with at times

10dsw wrote:xdude to your fourth point: During that time that she was attempting to "Hoover" me back in I did everything in my power to avoid/distance myself from becoming part of what I now know is called the fan club. I have said this previously but the idea of being part of such a club is disgusting and repulsive to me. I almost put in too much effort dodging the club. I don't like saying it but knowing that I have been NC with her for 2 months now based on how I treated her badly, and even knowing that she is probably complaining to every one of her fan club members about how I treated her is a deeply satisfying thought to me. This even if she feels she is "winning" by having the fan club members agree with her. Just the thought of her using others as a crutch to feel better after how I treated her is what I find truly satisfying. But you're right... in the end they truly have more power because a lot of them probably just don't care, and I know this.

HPDs like to chase to get attention so, ironically, the more a guy is "emotionally unavailable", the more they want chase the prey. It's like a challenge to them - the harder it is, the more the satisfaction if they win. Also, the emotional unavailability charachterizing NPDs and ASPDs is what makes a combo with HPDs more stable with respect to other combos (basically, there's less pressure in the fear of getting engulfed).

Fr4nz83 wrote:HPDs like to chase to get attention so, ironically, the more a guy is "emotionally unavailable", the more they want chase the prey. It's like a challenge to them - the harder it is, the more the satisfaction if they win. Also, the emotional unavailability charachterizing NPDs and ASPDs is what makes a combo with HPDs more stable with respect to other combos (basically, there's less pressure in the fear of getting engulfed).

From my experience, yep, exactly.

HPD-Victim wrote:Mark,You led me to something that has bugged me for a while now--the lack of a "fan club" with some HPD's (e.g. the one I know).

HPD-Victim wrote:Thoughts?

I agree 100% with your post HPD Victim. This was my personal experience as well. I think that "fan clubs" have taken on mythical properties, same as the sexual proclivities of HPDs.

In my view, a fan club is simply an integrated infrastructure system of support/self-validation for the HPD. It may very well consist of exbf's, love interests, etc. However, it may also consist of close family members and their friends. This was my experience.

My ex had three sources of supply. Her primary source, was her brother's friends He is an enabler. I suspect my ex has had some romantic entanglements with some of his friends. Her second source is through my friend. This is how I met her. And the third, disgustingly, is though my friend's son and his friends. These guys are so much younger then her it is absurd. I do not suspect any romantic engagements. But she has used these sources to "flirt" and receive attention.

10dsw wrote:From my recollection:
1 very stable type of person she views in high regards (before the devalue stage). I am assuming I filled that role for a few months. By now she is cultivating a new stable I am sure. Some stables might be promoted from lower levels every so often as was alluded to

2-3 close female friends. I am betting she only hangs out with them because they are noticeably less attractive than her and she can always out do them in terms of male attention.

1 very close female friend. The HPD probably views her as some sort of "motherly influence" as this one friend keeps her on a tight leash.

Mom: mom constantly posts on the HPD's profile saying how beautiful she is, blah blah. Mom is likely only worsening the situation. Moreover it seems the HPD has devalued mom as the HPD rarely acknowledges anything mom has to say.

With exception of close female friends, this appears to be the pattern. I also agree that HPDs look for some type of "stable" partner. In fact I believe that most, if not all, of us who post on this forum were being either "groomed" for that role, or "looked at" for that role.

You may also want to investigate the maternal/paternal roles that have played out in the HPDs life. Some believe that HPDs seek out "maternal" love, since they already received love from their fathers (though they had to perform to get it.). Others believe that HPD's have contempt for same sex friends because they resent their mothers for having to "compete" for their fathers attention. This is due to primarily absentee/passive type of fathers. This can also explain why certain HPDs go for "father figures.

"

10dsw wrote:And Mark I agree, it is not about the sex. I strongly believe that she does not have sex with any of the 10+ members of her fan club. The reason I say so is because multiple people told me it is hard to get her into bed and a couple congratulated me (as I mentioned), of course this was followed by me telling them that she is going around lying... particularly to that one friend

Yes, one of the biggest misconceptions about HPDs is that they are basically "sex addicts." Some are for sure. But many are not.

Fr4nz83 wrote:Who knows...the fan club seems to be consistently observed across HPDs, which is also in line with their core issue; it is possible that some HPDs renounce to have one after some events in their life, or when they get old.

I just think fan club can be any sort of support system. It does not have to be all ex lovers, boyfriends or wannabes

xdude wrote:Just my 2 cents:

Good post xdude

10dsw wrote:

The first whiff I got that something was not right (i.e. she pushed away, I had lost whatever control I had) was when I recoiled quickly, giving her the silent treatment after calling her in an attempt to heal the bruise to my ego. I always used the ignore/silence treatment on girls in the past (because they would always come crawling back) and I did the same in this case. When she came begging along again, and more so than the other girls... well my ego became very inflated. I was elated for quite some time.

You definitely have strong narcissistic tendencies. You may wish to explore further (if you have not already) how this affects your day to day life, your attraction to certain types of women, and your career interests. Self discovery and self-awareness are very powerful tools. Plus you may learn how your narcissism can impact you in perhaps negatives ways, such as interpersonal relationships with others.

Fr4nz83 wrote:HPDs like to chase to get attention so, ironically, the more a guy is "emotionally unavailable", the more they want chase the prey. It's like a challenge to them

I agree 100%

A few comments that I missed

10dsw wrote:They would not be considered "attractive" males, and a lot of them work poor jobs or are unemployed/addicts. They also have low self-esteem. I am going to assume that any time she throws them some scrap they start panting like dogs. She is using them for her own validation. I am willing to bet she wanted to put me into this grouping once she realized I was not going to give her what she wants: validation. Although I would feel too disgusted on the inside being part of some fan club.

One thing you learn about HPDs is that they often "trade down." When they exit one type of relationship they often go after something "easy" to boost their fractured self-esteem. Since you were the initial target, and you represented someone who offers her more, and you refused, she needed to have an easier fall back position.

They will often surround themselves with people who may be considered "less then" who she would normally go after/desire. This is based on two things; one they are ego centric. So she needs someone who "adores" her. Who better to do that then someone who would never really have a women like this in their lives.

And two, with some cluster B's, it is all about "control." They look to control their environment and the people in it. This is based on the childhood trauma that they experienced. The world can be a very scary place for a 5 year old. Therefore, the men they will surround themselves with may be deemed as easily controllable types.

Keep in mind though, they secretly long for a better "man". This so called better man can be an idealized fantasy of true love, some fairy tale prince who will rescue her, someone to protect her and care for her, or even a surrogate father type of figure.

However due to their own weak self-esteem, self-loathing (pretty remarkable when you consider how attractive they generally are) they are generally very insecure. They will fear rejection, possibly abandonment, etc. This is why many of us had to go through repeated "tests" to prove our commitment/love for them. It is a game though, that you can never win.

I am not so sure she wanted you in her "fan club." I do not think she would object if you agreed to that role. But she would look at you with contempt for how "weak" you really turned out to be. To her, you represented something stronger, stable, (Even though you are young, she may see you as a "surrogate" father type, it really is an interesting pathology). By you refusing that role, she maintains some respect for you.

Finally, I am not so sure she is done with you. HPDs hate to lose. They are very competitive and ego centric. She probably can not figure out why you do not "want" her. She may come back to you in the future. They really have no sense of "time." (another fascinating thing that does not get discussed as much as it should, imho). So it could be many months in the future.

But be forewarned, it is not for sincere purposes. If she can "capture" you and then devalue and discard you on her terms, then her self esteem and sense of power will zoom.

To xdude, I have reread your post again and see a lot of myself in it. Hmmm

mark1958 wrote:You may also want to investigate the maternal/paternal roles that have played out in the HPDs life. Some believe that HPDs seek out "maternal" love, since they already received love from their fathers (though they had to perform to get it.). Others believe that HPD's have contempt for same sex friends because they resent their mothers for having to "compete" for their fathers attention. This is due to primarily absentee/passive type of fathers. This can also explain why certain HPDs go for "father figures.

Indeed, in LOTS (perhaps, all?) of cases there's some kind of conflict between an HPD and his/her mother (and, secondarily, the father), and these conflicts have huge repercussions on how HPDs manage their sentimental relationships.

My personal experience: my ex had a very conflictual relationship with her mother, let's say a love/hate relationship (at least from my gf side, the mother seemed much more stable); she always described her mother as rigid, hypercrtical and, somehow, slightly unaffectionate and uncaring when she was a little child and an adolescent.
What I observed is that her mother seems, somehow, a little bit "cold" and "diffident", although in the end she demonstrated to me that she really cared about my gf (and me as well!).

And, you know, the ironic thing - but I bet this is pretty common - is that, after some time into the r/s, she started to identify me with her mother, i.e., she told me that my character was almost equivalent to the one of her mother.
I've read in BPDfamily (look at 2010's posts, http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts) that BPDs (but i think this applies to HPDs as well, given the similarities) tend to replicate in romantic relationships the relationship they had with their mother, with all the dysfunctionalities that follow. In the end, in their mind their partners end up interpreting the role of an hypercritical parent (and this, in turn, gives the clinging and devaluating phases).

Basically it's like a script that, sooner or later, ends up executed and starts the demise of a relationship.

mark1958 wrote:And the third, disgustingly, is though my friend's son and his friends. These guys are so much younger then her it is absurd. I do not suspect any romantic engagements. But she has used these sources to "flirt" and receive attention.

Yep. The women we know seem to have that in common. My thought has always been "ick!".

She has two such young men (half her age) living in her house along with one of her sons. A few weeks ago I actually asked her how that worked. She said she wears PJ's. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to see how those young guys react to that.
. o O (Ew, she could be my mom)
or perhaps
. o O (Yowie, MILF!)

I do know, because she's told me, that she uses one of them to do stuff for her. What irks me is that poor kid has real (on medication) mental issues.

mark1958 wrote:I also agree that HPDs look for some type of "stable" partner.

The woman I know has told me explicitly "I want someone that'll care for me". Now in Non terms that's ok. In HPD terms the meaning is "I want Prince Charming to take me back to his castle and love/admire me forever and take care of everything for me. In return I''ll be his Princess and will sit around looking nice." Sounds like a great deal--NOT!

Mirror mirror on the wall who's the naivest of them all?

mark1958 wrote:In fact I believe that most, if not all, of us who post on this forum were being either "groomed" for that role, or "looked at" for that role.

After seeing HPD woman, in a group setting, last night something occurred to me. I think that at times, when she's more lucid, she actually feels some empathy for me. She knows what I'm looking for but at some level seems to sense that she can't give it but would like to be able to. This doesn't happen often but I've seen it before.

mark1958 wrote:You may also want to investigate the maternal/paternal roles that have played out in the HPDs life.

Yep there quite a few theories about all that. My guess is that there's at least some truth in all of them. The common factor seems to be a cold/distant mother or at least one with "issues".

Interestingly a woman I have a friendly relationship with at our organization asked me last night, nicely, "Are you involved with X?". I took her aside and told her the story. She said, to me, after listening to what I said, "I think X is Histrionic". I was stunned and replied "You know what Histrionic is?". She said "Yes, my mom is Histrionic and [some other relative] is Schizophrenic". I'd love to talk to her more but got the feeling it's a touchy subject. That said I know "she gets it".

Another point. This lady, like others have, see HPD woman and I interact and see "something". That's why she asked her question It wasn't a new observation on her part she just, in the context of a larger conversation, got around to asking me,

mark1958 wrote:This can also explain why certain HPDs go for "father figures.

I know the woman I know was a "daddy's girl" and has, at least once, been attracted to a father like figure.

mark1958 wrote:Yes, one of the biggest misconceptions about HPDs is that they are basically "sex addicts." Some are for sure. But many are not.

Yes but stereotypes are soooo convenient.

. o O (All HPD's are theatrical}
. o O (All HPD's will f*** anyone)
. o O (All HPD's cheat)

mark1958 wrote:Keep in mind though, they secretly long for a better "man".

I agree. As I alluded to above. and perhaps it's just Narcissistic thinking on my part, I suspect I'm seen that way at times. And then it vanishes again...

There are some, IMO, "higher functioning" HPD's here (in the HPD forum) that recognize that and are in fact married to such a man. That said they seem to have the same conflicts/issues.

mark1958 wrote:They really have no sense of "time." (another fascinating thing that does not get discussed as much as it should, imho).

Mark,

I was thinking about that exact issue last week but only found this reference again yesterday.

Whereas the obsessive-compulsive patient feels anxious without his watch, the histrionic patient prefers not wearing a watch. He trusts that there will be a clock in the window of a jewelry store or on top of a billboard or that he can ask a passing pedestrian the time. Mangement of the time during the session is delegated to the interviewer.

p142/143
http://www.universitypsychiatry.com/cli ... _PICPs.pdf

Perhaps it's the child in them that lacks a sense of time. I've observed it too. The woman I know doesn't wear a watch.

mark1958 wrote:To xdude, I have reread your post again and see a lot of myself in it. Hmmm

On the positive side, you are going to end up a new and better you for the (painful) learning experiences you've gone through. The support she receives from others, especially males (that I wrote about in that post) are also going to end up being the very reason/s that the odds of her doing the same, of introspecting and questioning herself, near zero.

Which situation is better/worse to be in?