Looking to understand Ex-HPD's behaviours!

HPD-Victim wrote:

Fr4nz83 wrote:In general, having to deal with cluster B people (put aside ASPDs or cluster B people with anti-social traits...they may be dangerous to deal with, better avoid) can be really, really funny and/or a unique (in a positive sense) and enriching experience...

The more theatrical/dramatic ones could be "funny" I guess. The one I know is the rarer passive-aggressive type (not theatrical/dramatic) plus quite asexual.
[She and I are in our early 50's]

They are very rare indeed...typically HPDs are VERY theatrical...it's one of the distinctive features.

She can be fun at times but in the end its all an act with nothing behind it. It just gets, well, tiring.

Fr4nz83 wrote:IF you can keep them at arms length (no romantic relationship) and manage their drama. Basically, this requires to enforce strong boundaries...it's like playing with fire: if you're careful you may really enjoy it, otherwise you may get seriously burned.

Exactly, People that have their own PD issues seem to be able to play with the HPD fire without getting burned too badly. Non's, especially older ones like me, generally prefer to have actual human relationships (not necessarily romantic) with others. Never going to happen with a HPD.

BTW some HPD's are attracted to those with OCD/OCPD traits. Add NPD into the mix and 10dsw is just a big honey pot to the HPD bees

Yes, NPD + HPD is an excellent combinations...however, disorders are there and thus such relationships are nonetheless doomed to miserably fail. Let's say that such combos tend to be more "stable".

Just to add to the discussion...

About lying. You have to understand what the motivating factors are behind the "lying." Many cluster B's have problems with "self-identity" and core "self-esteem". The lying is part of their internal fabrication, or what they want to see about themselves through the "reflection" of others.

In the case of a narcissist, there is a "false self" , an "inner narrative", that has been created as an identity for themselves.They go about seeking individuals who confirm, reflect, or mirror this "false self" back to them. This is referred to as securing supply. In the case of a narcissist they will lie (reject) anything that would contradict this false self that has been created. If someone were to call them out on behaviors that are inconsistent with how they see themselves, they will lie, gaslight, deny, repress, etc in order to invalidate this "truth" about them.

In the case of an HPD, they seek outside attention/validation from others because of a lack of self esteem. They are literally "addicts" in the sense, that they must secure attention from as many sources as possible. This makes them dependent on others, for their sense of self. This is why there exists fan clubs, ex boyfriends, etc.

It is not always about sex however, it is simply about the attention. One of the incorrect stereotypes out there about HPD's is that they are ALL hyper-sexual. They are not. They use sexuality simply as means of attracting attention for self -validation purposes. So in many cases, sex is not the goal. You mentioned this yourself, in that your HPD has about 10 guys or so who want her. Though one can not be sure, I would guess that she has not had sex with any of them.

If you were to ask a HPD who she really is, she would have a hard time explaining herself. She may very well have no actual idea of who she is. Therefore she seeks as many outside sources as possible to reflect back to her who she thinks or wants herself "to be" .Now this image is very shallow and superficial (beauty, sexy, fun, etc) but she holds onto it as sense of self and why a relationship with them is a very difficult undertaking.

For them, lying is a means of denying what may be the real "truth" about themselves. They want to see a certain image of themselves in the eyes of others. Things such as affection, adoration, desire, good girl, kind, sweet, etc. However, what they truly are can not be accepted. Their core self esteem is so damaged that they will repress, deny, etc any evidence that goes against what they need to "see" from others.

BPD's and ASPD's have different agendas, so for them lying may have altogether different motivations.

However, the key point about lying here is this: In certain cluster B's , lying can become "truth". They can not accept sensory input that "contradicts" a certain image/narrative they hold for themselves, because of weak self identity/self -esteem issues.

Now as HPD victim has pointed out, there are certain sub-types that may enjoy manipulating/deceiving others via lying.

On selective memory, again it is repression. Certain facts must be discarded if they contradict with the image the HPD is looking for. It can be literally the "rewriting" of history, so that certain "facts" are rejected while new "facts" are presented. This is why arguing/confronting/calling out a HPD can be a frustrating experience as well as a harmful one. The HPD will literally paint you "black", the bad guy, who needs to be punished. Forget all of the facts about her destructive behaviors, those will be repressed. You have now "hurt" her and you will be hurt back.

This is why one must stay away from the "destructive" types as they will turn on you in sometimes dangerous ways.

mark1958 wrote:One of the incorrect stereotypes out there about HPD's is that they are ALL hyper-sexual. They are not. They use sexuality simply as means of attracting attention for self -validation purposes. So in many cases, sex is not the goal.

Thank for writing that Mark, Both the overtly sexual and asexual HPD types don't view sex the same way as Non's do. Which leads me to...

Fr4nz83 wrote:You can find some interesting academic material here:
http://www.universitypsychiatry.com/cli ... _PICPs.pdf (histrionism)

This is an excellent resource. I'd read (and saved it) it before but just did again. It, along with many other resources, make the point Mark did above.

mark1958 wrote:You have now "hurt" her and you will be hurt back.

Plus the hurt you inflict doesn't need to be intentional or even real as the above PDF describes. For example perceived rejection is treated just as harshly as real. Rejection to a HPD is not playing their game.

mark1958 wrote:For them, lying is a means of denying what may be the real "truth" about themselves.

Mark,

You led me to something that has bugged me for a while now--the lack of a "fan club" with some HPD's (e.g. the one I know).

Here's my thinking.

In philosophical terms lying is ultimately a rejection of reality. That strategy (by anyone) is ultimately self-defeating (reality always wins in the long term).

So how can it work? In short others must take up the slack and provide what the person rejecting reality has thrown away. That job can be performed by ones' partner, family, friends etc. In the case of many HPD's the job falls, primarily, on the "fan club". They're the enablers, helpers etc that provide the support the HPD needs--especially when a partner is currently unavailable.

The trouble with "fan club" members, and other friends, is that they can become alienated, over time, with the observed lying and other negative behaviors of the HPD. I'm sure, therefore, that it takes a lot of effort to maintain a "fan club".

So why do some not have a "fan club"? My thesis is because they have family members who willingly take on that task. Those family members are probably seen a more trustworthy/reliable than (relative) strangers. They're the constants in the HPD's life. They may "reject" at times but they probably won't "abandon".

The woman I know has two adult sons living locally. She "hangs" with them, and their friends, quite a lot. The sons are, I'm sure, used to taking care of mom. The sons friends probably aren't apt to criticize mom either.

I used to think this was just a maturity issue (i.e. hanging with people half her age to make her feel young again) but I see now how the lying would be tolerated by those people.

I happen to know that this woman has tried to get her other two (much older) sons to relocate to this small town. At first I thought this was probably for financial reasons but now see it in the "fan club" light.

These other two sons are much older than the ones here now so I'm guessing that they've figured out the real score (I hope so for their sake).

Now this strategy would only work if the HPD has enough relatives immediately available. In the case where they're not the HPD forms a "fan club". Where they are no (or only a smaller) "fan club" is needed.

Thoughts?

Are you sure she didn't have a fan club? I mean, apart from lying (they may or not...usually they do when under stress, b ut that depends on the individual and on the specific r/s) they may be very good at hiding things as well...

Fr4nz83 wrote:Are you sure she didn't have a fan club?

Not 100% but pretty sure. To my knowledge she only has two "friends" (both women) that she sees regularly. Four if you include their partners.

As previously mentioned (and Mark has observed this too) no-one outside her family and their friends visit her house.

It's never seemed very HPD like to me until now.

Hey guys - thanks for all your input so far - it has really helped me gain a better understanding.

There is a lot of talk of the fan club at the moment. I can provide you with the break down of my particular HPD's fan club. It may match yours to some extent.

From my recollection:

1 very stable type of person she views in high regards (before the devalue stage). I am assuming I filled that role for a few months. By now she is cultivating a new stable I am sure. Some stables might be promoted from lower levels every so often as was alluded to.

2-3 close female friends. I am betting she only hangs out with them because they are noticeably less attractive than her and she can always out do them in terms of male attention.

1 very close female friend. The HPD probably views her as some sort of "motherly influence" as this one friend keeps her on a tight leash.

Mom: mom constantly posts on the HPD's profile saying how beautiful she is, blah blah. Mom is likely only worsening the situation. Moreover it seems the HPD has devalued mom as the HPD rarely acknowledges anything mom has to say.

10+ orbiters, white-knight co-dependant type males who she randomly messages, throwing them scraps to try to keep them around. All these males are typically low on the social rank. They would not be considered "attractive" males, and a lot of them work poor jobs or are unemployed/addicts. They also have low self-esteem. I am going to assume that any time she throws them some scrap they start panting like dogs. She is using them for her own validation. I am willing to bet she wanted to put me into this grouping once she realized I was not going to give her what she wants: validation. Although I would feel too disgusted on the inside being part of some fan club.

[quote]BTW some HPD's are attracted to those with OCD/OCPD traits. Add NPD into the mix and 10dsw is just a big honey pot to the HPD bees [quote]

HPD bees haha, they are like insects aren't they!

I hate to admit it but this is absolutely true. All the girls I was seeing were quirky in some way, they all had some issues with their parents or some mental health issue, etc. To be fair I have never really put an effort into finding a good girl... I just don't care all too much, only occasionally do I get lonely. The only girl that I would say lasted with me for a while was the very "alpha" type of girl. She played softball, was over 6 feet tall, athletic and in general she was scary/intimidating. She lasted probably because she did not put up with any of my BS and did not fear me in any way.

And Mark I agree, it is not about the sex. I strongly believe that she does not have sex with any of the 10+ members of her fan club. The reason I say so is because multiple people told me it is hard to get her into bed and a couple congratulated me (as I mentioned), of course this was followed by me telling them that she is going around lying... particularly to that one friend.

-- Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:40 pm --

If some don't have fan clubs perhaps it is because they realize that in the end most fan club members abandon them and that would be torture to them?

It is almost like some guys who don't ask girls out in the first place simply because they fear rejection?

Who knows...the fan club seems to be consistently observed across HPDs, which is also in line with their core issue; it is possible that some HPDs renounce to have one after some events in their life, or when they get old.

Anyway, 10dsw: why don't you write some of the questions you have in mind in the HPD subforum? The HPDs there could give some interesting insights; moreover, the ones we have here are quite clever (and, obviously, funny ).
Just be slightly careful to write in a non-triggering way (i.e., keep out judgements).

PS: I don't agree that HPDs are like bees...I like more the fire analogy

Just my 2 cents:

I do think NPD types are sometimes attracted to HPD types, but the deeper dynamics are not so pleasant.

So this is what I learned about myself too -

First, if she is an attractive female with HPD, there are going to be many males who will pursue her. True enough, their motives are not so saintly no matter what they are telling themselves about the whys (i.e., if they were not sexually attracted to her they wouldn't feel or act the same). Because of this truth, many will say or write whatever she wants to hear to gain her favor.

Second, and the real key matter for the NPD type, is this is also a situation that appeals to the NPD types self-esteem issues. Not that she is getting so much attention, but that while NPD types may have a strong wall of 'I don't need others approval', deep down they really do. They end up envious of their HPD counter part on some level, even infuriated that she so easily acquires supply from others, which leads into ...

Third, any kind of 'control' the NPD type thinks he has over her is at best fragile. She may allow it, but it's strictly on her terms and this also drives the NPD type to obsess. The reason is she is NOT interested in have a logical discussion about this or that. She is more driven by others attention and approval. Therefore all she has to do to 'win' and be right, is to find someone else, often of the male sex, to side/agree with her. See point #1 why it's easy for her to do. Others agreement proves she is right, both in her own mind and the proof that others agree. If she can get them to gang up on her NPD partner, even more proof the ball is in her court. The NPD type cannot cope with being 'wrong' let along being ganged up on; he must be right, and so will dig in deeper, trying to figure out some logical argument or scheme to win and repair his damaged self-esteem.

Fourth, the final part of the ugly truth is that often very little of what she does really has any significant effect on the NPD type, *if* he had never gotten involved. Problem is the NPD type did get involved. Again see point #1. That's how it started, except that his overwhelming need to 'win' causes him to become far more obsessed with her than many other 'fan-club' members. Worse still, those not terribly involved members eat at the NPD types ego even more. They can so easily play along with her because they don't care. They are just playing the odds, maybe they'll get what they want (usually sex) or some attention themselves because that's all they want. If they don't get what they want, they just don't care. The NPD type on the other hand has a much deeper stake in the game, and realizes those other members are actually in the stronger position, because they don't care either way what happens next. They have nothing to lose, only potential gains by being agreeable with/to her.

Solution of course is simple Let her win. Also it's a good opportunity for the NPD type (myself included) to stop, and take some time out to learn something about ourselves. In reality there are probably millions of people with HPD, and none of them are causing us any direct harm, unless ... one gets involved.