What are the signs of a Narc mother?

My H has BPD, and I've been going to a T.

After a few sessions of telling my T about H's family, my T surprised me and said, "Well, you do realize that your MIL has NPD." I was shocked. We both completely agreed that my FIL likely has BPD (like my H), but I never would have guessed that my MIL has NPD.

She's a likeable person, adored by her own adult children and grandchildren. However, she's very spoiled, only does what she wants, never cooked a meal (even tho she has many children), never disciplined her kids, never taught her kids anything, bought her kids EVERYTHING they ever asked for (even tho they couldn't afford it), etc.

What is a mother with NPD like?

She's a likeable person, adored by her own adult children and grandchildren. However, she's very spoiled, only does what she wants, never cooked a meal (even tho she has many children), never disciplined her kids, never taught her kids anything, bought her kids EVERYTHING they ever asked for (even tho they couldn't afford it), etc.

Your T is probably right.
NPD can be 'likeable' in as much as they can be very charming.
They will frequently remind their children how much they 'sacrificed' to bring them up, and how 'good' it was of them to feed, clothe and provide shelter.
Now ain't she just *sparkly* wonderful?
The children are brainwashed into believing the lie, that mother is just the best! And might well appear to 'adore her'.
But is she, is she the best?
Any mother that expects adoration for doing in truth, sweet f##k all could well be NPD.
She never taught her kids anything, or cooked, no discipline. All these things require time, effort and hard work, they require selflessness.
In fact she only does what she wants, yet brought everything they asked for. Why? For show, for the audience applause and because shopping and spending money is fun! Narcs love to show off.

Is MIL a person who just loves the sound of her own voice?
Does she babysit much, without compliant?
Is she downright lazy, expecting everyone to wait on her like she's a queen?
Does she live in a bit of a fantasy world?

I don't know if any of this applys to your MIL or not.

My MIL was a narc, a nasty, lazy, manipulating cow.
My ex narc 'husband' idolised her would not hear a bad word said. But she never truly gave a f##k about him.

She's a likeable person, adored by her own adult children and grandchildren. However, she's very spoiled, only does what she wants, never cooked a meal (even tho she has many children), never disciplined her kids, never taught her kids anything, bought her kids EVERYTHING they ever asked for (even tho they couldn't afford it), etc.

Your response followed by my comments:

Your T is probably right.
NPD can be 'likeable' in as much as they can be very charming.

......Agreed.

They will frequently remind their children how much they 'sacrificed' to bring them up, and how 'good' it was of them to feed, clothe and provide shelter.

..... I don't think she did this, but I will gently ask my H if she did. I would be surprised if she talked about how much she sacrificed, but it wouldn't surprise me if she peppered conversations with "friendly reminders" of what she had done. For example, I could see her saying, "We had such a good time yesterday shopping for all of your new school clothes. It took all day, but we got it done. I soaked my feet last night because they were so swollen from all the walking. You sure got some nice things. I hope you're pleased with them."

Now ain't she just *sparkly* wonderful?

..... I do think that she did say certain "nice" things that manipulated her kids into thinking she was the best. Plus, since her husband (their father) was a raging BPD, they looked at their mom as their "good parent" because she never disciplined them and never yelled at them. The weird thing is, there seems to be NO EVIDENCE that the mom ever rescued any of her kids when the dad was being abusive. You'd think that would have tarnished her image, but it didn't. For some reason, it's never dawned on the kids that she SHOULD have stepped in numerous times when the dad was being abusive. I even tried to "plant a seed" with H. When H tells how his dad was abusive, I'll ask, "well, what did your mom do when your dad was behaving this way?" And, my H will say, "nothing." Yet, it doesn't dawn on him (or his siblings) that as a parent, she SHOULD have stopped her H (or at least tried to stop her H) from being abusive. (BTW....her H was not abusive to her physically or verbally but did require that homelife be "his way.") He never yelled at her. this is odd, I know. Maybe she never intervened when he was abusive to the kids so that her H wouldn't turn on her??


The children are brainwashed into believing the lie, that mother is just the best! And might well appear to 'adore her'.

.....seriously, they do adore her. They even call her St (her name). They seem absolutely brainwashed into thinking she is Mother of the Year. So much so, that a couple of her D's adopted the same "give kids whatever they want" style because they think, "that's what our awesome mom did." It's like the Emperor's New Clothes....Someday, some outsider is going to say, "Hey, she's naked. There's nothing awesome about her mothering." Part of it is because the kids believe that her "anything goes" philosophy is evidence of her "unconditional love" for them. No judgement, no criticisms, no corrections, etc.

But is she, is she the best?

..... No, she's not. Not at all. My H does recognize his mom's shortcomings with parenting but ONLY because my mom was so different (giving of time, talents, etc) that H could clearly see the contrast. H was amazed at how much my mom did (before she died). She'd cook big meals, help anyone who needed help, volunteered in the community, disciplined us, taught us things, quizzed us for tests, etc. He began joking that his only memories of his mom is of her sitting on a lawn chair with the neighbors chatting with a coffee cup in one hand and a cigarette in the other. However, we don't live near his mom/siblings so H has never shared his enlightened thoughts with his siblings. He thinks it would just go in one ear and out the other anyway.


Any mother that expects adoration for doing in truth, sweet f##k all could well be NPD.
She never taught her kids anything, or cooked, no discipline. All these things require time, effort and hard work, they require selflessness.

..... Yes, I only recently realized that it was because those things took effort. Her kids would "admire" their mom because she didn't bother to teach them any social skills/table manners/etc. Her kids would actually say things like, "mom knew that those things aren't really important and are just showy." Huh? These are all college graduates. MIL has fabulous table manners, yet she never bothered to teach her kids because that would have taken TIME/EFFORT. She didn't teach her kids because she was lazy. It wasn't because she thought those things were unimportant.

In fact she only does what she wants, yet brought everything they asked for. Why? For show, for the audience applause and because shopping and spending money is fun! Narcs love to show off.

......Yes, now I realize that she was "buying them." And, I guess, bribing them to love her.

Is MIL a person who just loves the sound of her own voice?

.......Oh yes. H and I both realized this when she would call and talk to our kids on the phone. She literally never let our kids speak....even if she asked them a question. For example, this is an actual conversation: "How's school going? I bet you're a A student like your dad. What is your favorite subject? I bet it's math. Your dad's favorite subject was math. He loved math, but he hated art. I bet you hate art. Do you like recess? All kids love recess." (and so forth). She would just fire questions and then ANSWER THEM herself! My son was literally just holding the phone and saying nothing the entire time. It never dawned on MIL that she was doing all of the talking.

Does she babysit much, without compliant?

.....Yes, she did babysit without complaint. She actually liked babysitting because it was a way to get what she wanted (get out of the house). However, when she babysat, she didnt' really watch the kids. Her kids do admit that "grandma" let the grandkids do whatever they wanted and that was sometimes a problem.


Is she downright lazy, expecting everyone to wait on her like she's a queen?

......Yes, she is lazy. She has no guilt when others are working around her and she's doing nothing. For example, for a big Christmas dinner, it doesn't bother her at all that everyone else is contributing, cooking, preparing, while she'd doing nothing.

Does she live in a bit of a fantasy world?

......I never thought of this, but she does engage in "magical thinking" and assumes a lot. She gets "taken in" by scammers becauses she truly believes them when they tell her she's been chosen for some opportunity (that is a scam).

She is not a planner at all. She's very late to everything. She was even late to two of her kids' weddings...she walked in DURING the ceremonies. The ceremonies were delayed in hopes that she'd get there soon, but finally they had to get started. She'd arrive about halfway thru. When we got married, we lied to her about the time that she had to be there for pictures (before the ceremony) just to make sure she wouldn't be late.

She's very late to everything. She was even late to two of her kids' weddings...she walked in DURING the ceremonies.

Wow. That is a huge Red Flag.
Walking in late to such an important event is a way of control (everyone worrying about her) and being the centre of attention.
'HEY EVERYONE ITS MEEE I'M HERE'
All heads turn, phew mums here. Passive/aggressive behaviour.

There is a book by M. Scott Peck an American psychiatrist called 'The Road Less Travelled' about narcissists and their effect on those around them.
He was surprised by how many people seeking therapy would walk into his office and the first thing they would say is "Before you say anything, its NOT my parents they were great.
Over the course of many sessions it would slowly emerge that the parents were far from great.

In a typical narcissistic family the family members are manipulated by narc mother/father to think she is great and any faults are swiftly blamed on someone else.
Often there is a scapegoat child who can do no right, maybe MIL used her husband as someone to blame for all the wrongs in the family, leaving her as a 'Saint'
Even the fact she failed to intervene when her BPD husband was abusive to her children is not a good sign.
She might have 'babysat' but it sounds like she did little apart from sit in a chair watch TV and ignore them.

My son was literally just holding the phone and saying nothing the entire time. It never dawned on MIL that she was doing all of the talking.

Narcs rarely have a real conversation a two-way thing. Its a monologue, them, listening to the sound of their own voice and losing interest quickly if anyone else speaks.

Seems MIL is viewed through rose coloured specs, maybe its time for your H to take them off.

There is a book by M. Scott Peck an American psychiatrist called 'The Road Less Travelled' about narcissists and their effect on those around them.
He was surprised by how many people seeking therapy would walk into his office and the first thing they would say is "Before you say anything, its NOT my parents they were great.
Over the course of many sessions it would slowly emerge that the parents were far from great.

this is very true. I have a sibling who is a T and they say that people do this all the time. Then, as the clients talk, the truth comes out. People will also often say, "my parents had a great marriage," and again, as time goes on and more is revealed, the truth comes out. Many people just want to believe that they were from a "good family".


I realize now with MIL being late to everything is her way of saying, "your event isn't important enough for me to adjust my schedule (not dawdle) and get there on time.


I do agree that she wants to hear herself talk. I remember when she called once and I had just gotten back from a trip to see my mother who had just had a very major stroke. I started to tell MIL about how my mom was doing (learning to speak again, etc), and my MIL showed NO INTEREST at all. H and I had been married for over 20 years at the time. You'd think she'd care a little bit that my own mother was seriously affected by this stroke (my mom later died when another stroke hit).

My H (unfortunately) has picked up on the habit of excessive talking and not wanting to listen to others. We once worked at the same place (different bosses) and my H would go into my boss' office to chat. My boss (a great guy) once said to me, "I don't know how you ever get a word in edgewise. Your husband talks non-stop". This was early in our marriage, but it really shook me up because I hadn't realized how bad he really was. Since then, H has gotten even worse. Now, if you try to say anything, you literally have to interrupt him, and then he gets angry that you've interrupted him.

It is almost (but not) amusing to hear H criticize someone else for talking a lot (but less than the amount that H talks). He'll get annoyed that someone at a party was talkative (but not excessive) because (in truth) that person was "cutting into" H's talking time.

Believe me, H no longer wears Rose-colored Glasses in terms of his mother. The glasses are now "light pink"....lol.....He knows that she was inadequate. He just hasn't shared that with his siblings who still believe that she's awesome. H still hasn't processed that his mom should have protected the 8 kids from their dad's abusive behaviors and outbursts. And, H hasn't processed that his mom was buying "love" with all the gifts, etc.

H does readily accept that his mom was lazy when it came to discipline. And, she was lazy when it came to preventing the kids from damaging things at home. She would just say, "oh, I wanted to buy a new one anyway," when the kids were careless and broke/damaged something.

She might have 'babysat' but it sounds like she did little apart from sit in a chair watch TV and ignore them

Very true. Her real reasons to babysit were that her H rarely would agree to go ANYWHERE, so babysitting became an excuse to get out of the house.

In a typical narcissistic family the family members are manipulated by narc mother/father to think she is great and any faults are swiftly blamed on someone else.

I saw this sort of thing going on with the dad (likely BPD w/ NPD traits). The truth was that he couldn't work for others (wouldn't follow someone else's rules/requests/expectations), so he opened his own business. The business was one which should have been very successful in its time (insurance agency in a middle class town), but because he was so lazy, he made a decent income (by default). The family has long held to the concept that "dad" was such a hard worker. The mom went to work for him when the kids were older (answer the phone) and she revealed to us (my H and me) that her H just "sat around reading the newspaper and watching TV) rather than doing business. That explained why his business did so poorly. However, she's never told the other kids and they still believe that their dad was "such a hard worker."

My MIL was right. We spent a few days sitting in his office one time and the man rarely did any work. The really weird thing is that the dad would rarely take a day off. He'd insist that he HAD to be in his office. Even when we had a 50th wedding anniversary party for them (on a Friday), he would NOT leave the office until 5:30...and the party was at 6pm. We spent the day with him, and we all spent the WHOLE day waiting for ONE customer to come in to pay a bill...and the person never came. It was ridiculous.

H just "sat around reading the newspaper and watching TV) rather than doing business. That explained why his business did so poorly. However, she's never told the other kids and they still believe that their dad was "such a hard worker."

With narcs its all smoke & mirrors. A family life built on lies, exaggerations, manipulations and role play.
The 'Saint' of a mother (who wasn't)
The 'Hard-working' father (who wasn't)
And the 'Adoring' family members, buying into the fantasy because the truth ain't nice.

The result of a NPD mother/father is family members can often have mental health problem's;
Anorexia, OCD, BPD, etc. Anxiety is common.

My ex partner was BPD, I think its inherited? But made worse by a dysfunctional environment.

With narcs its all smoke & mirrors. A family life built on lies, exaggerations, manipulations and role play.
The 'Saint' of a mother (who wasn't)
The 'Hard-working' father (who wasn't)
And the 'Adoring' family members, buying into the fantasy because the truth ain't nice.

The result of a NPD mother/father is family members can often have mental health problem's;

this is all very true. I like the way you put that.

It is all 'smoke and mirrors". And, yes, the kids have anxiety issues and stomach issues.

Even when they all do things that are way out of the range of normal, they don't see/understand why everyone else thinks it's odd.

For instance, when FIL died a few years ago (Feb 5), the family couldn't get their act together to have the funeral/memorial service until the END OF JUNE! I'm not kidding. All but 2 kids lived in town, so it wasn't an issue of getting the family together. They're just horrible with planning, taking care of details, procrastination, excuses, etc.

They're just horrible with planning, taking care of details, procrastination, excuses, etc.

Yup, very difficult to get anything done.
Arrangements are made which are not conveyed to everyone. Narcs expect everyone to just 'know' (magical thinking) When a person then says they can't make it (because they were not informed in time) they are blamed for being 'difficult'.
Last minute arrangements, where everyone is expect to drop everything instantly.
Tears, chaos and drama from Narc mother. Poor MEEE. What about ME.
Procrastination, lots of that.

For instance, when FIL died a few years ago (Feb 5), the family couldn't get their act together to have the funeral/memorial service until the END OF JUNE! I'm n

ot kidding.
Now that is slow

For instance, when FIL died a few years ago (Feb 5), the family couldn't get their act together to have the funeral/memorial service until the END OF JUNE! I'm not kidding

now that is slow

And they don't understand how things like that will appear to others. When they first realized that they couldn't get their acts together to have the funeral within the normal time period (within a week after death (so by mid Feb), they then declared that they would have the service in March around FIL's bday (March 19). Then when it was clear that they would miss that deadline, they moved it to Father's Day weekend. In the end, there wasn't a service at all. We just buried his ashes in a family plot. No priest/minister or anything present. Just stuck the box in the ground and covered it up.


This is typical. Years ago, when the siblings decided to have a 35th Wedding Anniversary party for the parents, H and I made plane reservations to attend. A few days before we arrived, we found out that the party was cancelled because the oldest brother decided to go to a football game that day instead. So, we quickly decided to meet for a casual breakfast on Sunday morning. When we showed up, we found out his sister wasn't going to come because, "she wasn't hungry". Here we had flown out for this, and people weren't making a decent effort. So self-centered...but that's how they were raised.