Small encounter (HPD)

Pardon me, but having to work in such close proximity to my possible HPD ex-gf can be quite emotionally challenging and all day today I've been struggling. First thing this morning she came into my cubicle (this time for legitimate work reasons) as I was leaving and I step aside so she could get in and we exchanged "hi" in a rather grim tone to each other. Which feels horrible to me because I don't want things to be grim between us. And of course she looked beautiful and endearing as always. Then a little later in the day I had to speak with a co-worker who sits across the aisle from her...she was not at her desk at the time. Then while speaking with him, she comes down the aisle -- apparently she had just run a special photo for him and even though I was still there, she handed it to him (somewhat dramatically) and started talking with him, all the while not looking at me at all. But she seemed cheery and jovial. I did look at her and see if she'd look at me, but no she didn't. Yes, my heart was cracking. I guess I just wonder why though, when she saw me at his desk in discussion she couldn't just wait till I had left and then give him the photo...there was no immediate urgency. She seems to have either no regard to how she may impact me, or on some level she wants me to notice her it seems. Who knows. Right now she is speaking with people in the cube next to mine and I can hear her laughing over the music entering my ears through my headphones.

Well, she just came into our cubicle to ask people if they want to sign up for a Cinco De Mayo potluck on May 3rd and she was extremely giggly and ignored me altogether. I question the necessity of this because it is 3 weeks away and she could do it before I get in because I come in later in the day than everyone else.

And now she is having an extensive conversation with the guy on the other side of the wall right next to me and acting like she is so interested in his dog, kid, wife, etc. She just doesn't care about my feelings at all.

ArthurK wrote:Well, she just came into our cubicle to ask people if they want to sign up for a Cinco De Mayo potluck on May 3rd and she was extremely giggly and ignored me altogether. I question the necessity of this because it is 3 weeks away and she could do it before I get in because I come in later in the day than everyone else.

And now she is having an extensive conversation with the guy on the other side of the wall right next to me and acting like she is so interested in his dog, kid, wife, etc. She just doesn't care about my feelings at all.

She does care about your feelings. She wants you to hurt right now. She is putting on a show for you to watch you squirm.

Thanks What Happened, for the insight, I really appreciate it. I am almost embarrassed that I am reduced to feeling like a hurt little boy by her. And also, I feel conflicted -- because on one hand I want to believe she is acting as she is because of me...because then it feels like I do have some importance to her after all, albeit in a twisted way right now. But on the other hand, I would hate to have such an ego to think that her behavior is targeting me.

AK, I have been with my wife for 22 years, married 20 years. I'm starting to figure out what makes her tick.
When we dated, there was a time that we were meeting at a club. She thought I was late meeting her. When I got there, she was flirting with like 3 guys.
I called her out on it. She was sincerely sorry about it and said it was because I was late.
She was wanting to punish me.
Now, my wife was a 10 back then. We would be out and guys would come up to me and say "Man, you are with the hottest girl in here."
I would proudly say, "I know."

Now, with her hotness came a lot of maintenance. Back then she was well worth it in my opinion. Now, not so much. She knows it and she is working out like crazy and trying to recapture her old self.
When I see her with her friends she really tries to stand out and be the life of the group. She does this to show me that she doesn't need me. I don't let it phase me anymore. But, I went through a ton of gut wrenching heartbreak to get to this point.
I am staying temporarily, as my kids are getting older and they are doing really well. I don't want to disrupt their lives.
There is about 2 hours of back story that I can tell you, which I will get to one of these days.

Now, back to your situation, you should feel bad for the guy she is flirting with to get to you. She is playing him to make you jealous and hurt you. She may end up pulling him away from his family, then I would predict that she will lose interest in him and dump him.

ArthurK wrote:She just doesn't care about my feelings at all.

Arthur, I would trust my gut feelings, and any crystal clear statements like this that I made, that flowed from such feelings.

What Happened? wrote:She does care about your feelings. She wants you to hurt right now. She is putting on a show for you to watch you squirm.

"What Happened's?" statement reminded me of a past possible explanation for HPD sadistic (or, perhaps more accurately, psuedo-sadistic) behavior, remembered from "dingbat69" Thu May 24, 2012 2:59 pm from "Are HPD's sadistic?" thread (see histrionic-personality/topic89818-40.html?hilit=Sadistic)

When applied to someone with HPD, sadistic behavior can be ROOTED in several different items from the DSM-IV. Some examples of the mainifestations are:

1. Attention: When someone is in pain, their attention is pretty focused on the source of that pain. HPDs who engage in this behavior do so usually when they're feeling "neglected" or otherwise starved for attention.

2.Self Dramatization: Someone else here gave a perfect example where the HPD deliberately inflicted emotional pain and, when the person called her, she put him on speaker phone in a mocking "tee-hee" sense.. The object was for her to show others how profound and dramatic she was in his heart.

3. Inappropriate provocative behavior: This isn't limited to sexual seduction. Emotional provocation also falls into this criteria. And emotional sadism is obviously inappropriate emotional provocation.

One of the secondary generic traits for HPD is the seeking of approval and reassurance. Hurting people is only possible when the person has genuine feelings.

In a roundabout way, HPDs hurt people out of a need for reassurance and approval because an indifferent reaction to their manipulative behavior is akin to criticism or being ignored.

I found this "psuedo-sadism" arising from a lack of empathy explanation illuminating...maybe it can help you to understand what she's doing and help you heal. Not all, or prolly even most HPDs are truly sadistic, but there could be episodes where some look for your pain as a confirmation that you care for them - much like signs of jealousy in you are also a confirmation of same.

But for sure don't forget your emotional health Arthur: whatever her motivational or behavioral source, hurt is hurt; pain is pain. If that is indeed what is going on, a relationship in which someone is reassured that you love them through your pain is fundamentally absurd and unsustainable, and it will put a lot of mileage on you real quick. Be charitable of her condition, but also understand it, and be stronger through the knowledge.

Thanks again, WH, for the support. Every bit helps as I attempt to maintain my sanity/serenity. I went to another Al-Anon meeting tonight too and talked about my struggle with detachment (with love) and forgiving her. It is good to just get it out in a safe environment.

Everyday she is in my vicinity I try to give her the benefit of the doubt and second guess myself because I don't want to be unfair as to what her motives are, or read into it just because I am missing HER attention so wishfully think she is wanting to get at me because, as I said, then she must actually, underneath it all, have an investment in me. Maybe it could be, that she was going to hand the photo to GW anyway, and decided not to let my presence deter her from what she otherwise would have done naturally. But, then why linger there and talk and joke? If it was me, needing to interact with someone she was currently conversing with, I'd have waited till she finished so as not to potentially cross a boundary. But, I have told her quite a few times already that when she comes into my cubicle, or close by my desk, it seems often she is trying to get a reaction out of me, either by things she says or the gestures she makes (such as play punching a guy, for example). I was honest and said it hurts me because I miss her and I miss being the person she talked to or kidded around with. So I ask her, why does she need to do it when she knows it hurts me and I just tried to be good to her. Then she stops it for awhile...maybe a week, and then she starts up again. She comes in at 5 a.m. I come in at 10 a.m. and am the last one in. That's plenty of time she could have gone around asking people (3 weeks early) if they want to bring something for the potluck. That's plenty of time she could visit with the others in my cubicle or nearby. So it is just a little suspicious. The fellow with the desk over the cube wall from me...I don't believe she was flirting with him with an intent to lure him from his family...if she is HPD I don't think she is quite that vicious...but rather, I just think she was trying to show, "see how friendly I am with everyone, how much I care about their lives, what a good person I am" -- but meanwhile she is rather cruel to me, it feels like. But yes, often I do feel bad for a couple guys I am pretty sure the only reason she has talked to them is because they sit by me. It's almost like she doesn't want me to have any of "my own people" -- she has to have them too. And yes, I believe there is a factor where she wants to make me jealous. Could it really be that I'm that important to her that she must do that? That's what baffles me...why would I be that "special"? Do I really have that kind of hook in HER? I guess for a guy who has never had much luck with women, a handsome enough fellow who women still never seem to fall in love with, that is weirdly flattering -- but...

I don't know how you have managed to survive your wife for 22 years. But, as you say, at first were gut wrenching times, then you learned to detach. I can understand her hotness factor making it worthwhile. There is something very alluring about my ex-gf, that, while at first I thought she was a little bit challenging, the noble man in me thought I can handle that, it is worth it -- but, it really wasn't all based on the physical. When I first fell in love she was a little overweight, actually. At 40 she was always worried about her weight and trying to shed pounds with extreme diets or exercise. But still there was something very captivating, even exotic, about her. I guess chemical. Since taking up with the new guy (who ironically is quite overweight) she has shed a lot of pounds...but often when I do hear her talk, that's nearly always the subject -- diet and exercise. Makes me sad actually. She wants to weigh 110...but she's 40 now...but she's beautiful anyway.

Well, you say you are staying for the kids for the time being. I can't blame you for putting them first if, in spite of your wife, that is working for them. Are you then wanting to leave her? Are you just not in love with her anymore?

Thank you Orion for this reply; it is very helpful.

Arthur, I would trust my gut feelings, and any crystal clear statements like this that I made, that flowed from such feelings.

Yeah, that's fascinating...because at the moment I wrote those words "she doesn't care about my feelings at all"...well, that was a moment where I felt particularly tormented...whether due to her behavior or my own thinking...and one tends to fret to the extreme during moments like that...so hard to say it's really true that she doesn't care "at all" -- though can moments like those be moments of particular lucidity?

"What Happened's?" statement reminded me of a past possible explanation for HPD sadistic (or, perhaps more accurately, psuedo-sadistic) behavior, remembered from "dingbat69"

I'm still working on reading the entire thread, but what you listed here from dingbat is incredible and blows my mind because I can see how it might really fit what's going on between me and TL. But it's so sad too. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the possibility she is hurting me because she needs to know I still value her. I question: why does she want to still feel valued by me? Another question: if she still needs my validation/attention...she could have always had it many times a day had she not broken up with me...and it would have been more real and consistent than the disjointed attention she gets indirectly through "backdoor" means or fleeting attention from others. But I guess that's the problem...disorder is not logic.

I found this "psuedo-sadism" arising from a lack of empathy explanation illuminating...maybe it can help you to understand what she's doing and help you heal. Not all, or prolly even most HPDs are truly sadistic, but there could be episodes where some look for your pain as a confirmation that you care for them - much like signs of jealousy in you are also a confirmation of same.

Thanks again for calling this up...it is very helpful. It may take me awhile yet to fully heal, but I feel like some fog is dissipating.

But for sure don't forget your emotional health Arthur: whatever her motivational or behavioral source, hurt is hurt; pain is pain. If that is indeed what is going on, a relationship in which someone is reassured that you love them through your pain is fundamentally absurd and unsustainable, and it will put a lot of mileage on you real quick. Be charitable of her condition, but also understand it, and be stronger through the knowledge.

You're very right on this Orion, and I thank you for cautioning me. For sure I want to get to a consistently compassionate place with her and feel like I can regain my steadier, solid self...so I'm anchored and not bobbing to and fro on choppy waves. I don't want to ever feel like she is a horrible person to feel disdain for though, or hope she is bitten by "karma"...if she is indeed HPD, I don't think she is the worst of them and it's something she can't help if she doesn't realize it. I just want to feel I can view the dynamics with clarity and not feel the man I am is diminished.

Thanks again.

AK, I still love her very much. All of her demands and complaints were just killing me physically, mentally, and emotionally.
Plus, she became very frigid for a number of years. I pursued her for many years for affection and she would often get angry when I approached her.
So, I gave up. I gave up entirely on getting anything I wanted or needed out of the relationship. The interesting thing was that she suddenly was interested in me again after I said the hell with it.

What Happened? wrote:...
So, I gave up. I gave up entirely on getting anything I wanted or needed out of the relationship. The interesting thing was that she suddenly was interested in me again after I said the hell with it.

As I wrote to scout in another thread, yes, for better or worse, unfortunately the reality is that we are affected because we are (or were) emotionally invested in the person with HPD. We changed, but there was a time early on in the relationship when we were one of those guys who didn't care, and because we didn't care, we were amused by the dramatics, enjoyed the sexual attention, it was all positive and no negatives because if it got to be too much, off we'd go to take a break.

Of course she wants a man to be emotionally involved enough that he can be hurt, to care so much that what she says and does matters enough that it can affect us, positively or negatively. It's good for her ego to have a man who really cares, but at the same time there is nothing more devaluing then reaching that point, only to have her treat men who don't care about her with preference. She wants both, both the man who cares, and the attention of those who don't care because they are challenges, potential new sources of resources and supply.

So easier said then done, but unfortunately really the only way to 'win' is to stop caring, to go back to being one of those emotionally strong and challenging males she idolizes, who are strong with her because they don't care about her so can't be hurt. When/if you can reach that point of not caring, when her words/actions no longer hurt, yep, at worst the relationship is over, and at best you'll be put back up the same pedestal that other men who don't care are placed on.