Can AvDP strike an emotional bargain with HPD?

It's so long, arrgh!!!

I moved in with landlady K on trial basis - I sized her up as histrionic and fully intended to invoke the trail period to move on. But since I'm in therapy (CBASP) for chronic depression and AvDP, I decided to commit to settling in and not jumping on craigslist first time she triggered me. My therapist seemed surprised, but agreed. I knew it would be desensitizing, and it has been, but the first time I set a real boundary I had a 20 hour anxiety attack. yay! I NEVER have anxiety attacks, simply because I am so good at avoiding triggers, so I'm honestly worried how I'll manage when it comes around again...

I took a 3-day cool down to meet with my therapist. After we met, I texted K I was ok, and not upset with her, just very anxious and talking to a lot of people at alanon, dual diagnosis group and friends looking for some quiet or peace in myself and hoped she was ok.

We are not done working thru the episode in therapy, but so far the upshot is:
• I can make people into real monsters who scare the absolute hell out of me
• She is not a monster, just a hyper little old lady who wears tie-dyed tee shirts and and needs a ton of attention
• I need a ton of cool down time
• My AvDP causes me a lot of embarrassment and I empathize with her shame and frustration
• Not a bad idea to stick around and feel the power I've been giving her dissipate
• I definitely had an uptick in mood and spontaneously rewarded myself with a bracelet

I know she was embarrassed, but how long it lasted I don't know - she cycles thru high highs and low lows so quickly. And I'm sure she never expected me to say I was not upset with her. I'm wondering if this was confusing to her? did I gain some confidence in her by not judging her harshly? does she think I'm a pushover because I was nice? will she move on to another's buttons, realizing I've got my shaky little hand hovering over mine?; or will she just randomly continue to go off regardless of how I behave? (Also curious how well I can maintain this boundary)

Most of what I expected was accurate, as follows (BTW not a laundry list of her faults, just what I've observed and might help form an opinion):

Desperate for happy "Family" unit and most definitely LOVE hungry. Shallow friendships, too familiar, a lot of conflict and relationship breakups - never knows why. Daughter said her death could not come quick enough - devastated, but initiated lawsuit next day - no time to reflect, while lamenting horrible D who she gave a wonderful life and never anything bad, no alcohol, drugs, abuse, "nothing!" Turns out to be empty threat, as she revealed after D was served she is unable to "manifest" the money to continue suit. D now validated "mom is crazy" for the millionth time. So ineffective, this is what makes her seem more human and less of a threat.

Poor impulse control, financially. Instead of going thru old mayo and salad dressing to make room for new roommates, she bought a used refrigerator (that was so exciting!) just moved old stuff into new - same result, no room. Both other roommates now have small refrigerators in their rooms.

Cried in frustration when:
hungry and restaurant didn't have what she wanted (looking for comfort when hurting)
hungry (a bit drunk) and new roommate ate the last corned beef and cabbage on his second day. No honeymoon phase for him... that's when he bought his refrigerator.

Excessively flattering, over the top, disingenuous

Had Lifetime movie breakdown on me before "family" dinner. Amazed when I say I'm not coming - tries to convince me to talk it over even tho she can see I'm shaking. Says I have a "hole in my soul" that she can never "fill" (WTF?) and: Hello! Girlfriend! I just made this beautiful family dinner! providing me with the excellent exit line: You are not my family! (that's when the anxiety attack started because that's what my family would have done)

I don't find her craziness completely annoying. She is vivacious type and very enthusiastic, which is good for me. In a funny way, I think she and I are a good match for this process. We have equally infantile skill levels with conflicts/boundaries, so I don't feel totally intimidated by her, just her anger. This is also weirdly replicating how my avoidance started, with a bullying older sister. I was too little to conceive of leaving to relieve my stress and lived with a lot of anxiety and sadness - and never learned to stick up for myself.

I actually have good instincts,, judgment, verbal skills, empathy and intuition, none of which are accessible when I think someone is angry at me - I literally leave my body, so sticking around feels very big, like a big change. So my little plan seems to be working! haha! SO desperate to get some relief from AvDP and depression this is what I'm willing to do.

If posters can (read all this and) avoid demonizing her, I'd appreciate it - I'd rather not reinforce that now that I've reduced her to a reasonable size - Just let me know if I'm completely delusional here. K actually has friends she is loyal to and respects and I don't think she flips on them... Are there ways to reduce some of the drama?

Curious what the attraction is. Opposites attract?

I was living with a depressive hoarder for two years... I was attracted to the house, and she snagged me with her personality, which I could see was over the top. I knew she would be a handful (for anyone, not just AvDP), but she also makes me laugh. I tried to find something else because I knew I would be exposing myself to a lot more conflict than I'm used to (like, zero).

It is depressing to deny myself the things I want/need in life simply bc I don't know how have an argument or afraid I might have to ask someone to be quiet. I am capable of going to extreme lengths to avoid putting myself in that position. My quality of life is not good and has gotten worse because of my avoidance of routine conflict. I wanted to live in this house, and in this bedroom, which I love... Ultimately, it's on me to adjust to her and anyone else who triggers me - I get it that she didn't give me an anxiety attack.

I can still leave anytime, but that would be my m.o,, so with the help of a therapist I'm taking some contrary action. The idea behind CBASP is that chronic depression comes from not being effective at getting what you want, and thinking globally: Things never change, people will always act the way my sister did (she hates me!), so there is no point in asking for what I want. I'm learning to sort back thru conflicts or interactions and pinpoint what I do that prevents me from getting what I want. The plan is to learn how to think about what I want at the beginning of a situation, not the end, while learning to manage my anxiety (that's monumental, right there!).

I'm thinking she is not especially effective (attention deficit/love hungry) at carrying out threats, that she is mostly bark and no bite - but I may be way off. That's what I hoped HPDs on this board could help with.

scouts -

I'm doubtful you'll get your bargain, but it sounds like you have tremendous insights into yourself.

tut tut! nothing 14 years of dysthymia can't deliver...

I was hoping for some kind of Vulcan Nerve Pinch to put her in neutral. One suggestion is just to say something like: You could be right...

I usually just watch her like a movie and walk away when she gets distracted, but as I walk away I get angry, fast.

One interesting thing I learned about: "extinction bursts," which is when you don't provide the expected reward to something the target has come to expect. I told my therapist that things sometimes seem to escalate and she said that could be a sign that K is pushing harder in the hopes of getting the reaction she is used to. Kind of like when your computer dies and you start pushing all the buttons - one last try before accepting defeat.

The size and duration of the burst is in relation to how well they have trained others to give in to their demands.

I should probably be focusing on putting myself in neutral, right? but I can dream...

scout -

Just from my experience, it can takes years of therapy and effort to make changes in how we feel/think, even when we want to change (she may not want to change), and we have complete control over ourselves. There is really nothing anyone can say/do that will change someone else, especially when they have no desire to change.

Of course - Extinction bursts don't mean a person is changing, just awakening to the fact that they are not getting what they expect.

By neutralizing, I mean not enabling. I'm usually like a deer in the headlights (although that is getting A LITTLE better) and don't have a lot of game when these things come up.

We all have great skill in some areas, and deficits in others. I'm thinking there are some of you who have "expertise" in dealing with difficult people, not just HPDs, and ways of setting boundaries that you take totally for granted. Not brilliant comebacks, but the ability to shift your own gears to deflect oncoming emotional traffic.*

This is what I don't have, but am in the process of building. Eventually, I will be more focused on what I want, and the traffic will feel more like noise, not a heavy metal object hurtling my way...

*Not that I can't think brilliant comebacks, but I'm not likely to use them, as that would threaten my schema of not "hurting," or placating people!

scout -

Without sounding pessimistic, it's much easier to maintain boundaries with someone you have no feelings for than it is someone you do. An extreme version of what I mean can be found in this book -

http://www.wisdomofpsychopaths.com/

That's an extreme though, and most of us aren't psychopaths. Unfortunately the name of the book "...wisdom of..." shouldn't be mistaken for approval. The author just deftly explains how the lack of feelings on the part of the psychopath is also why they're able to succeed wildly in some cases, usually via manipulating others.

By the way if she has a fan club of other men, their advantage is they don't care. She can't hurt them much if at all because they have no feelings for her. She might amuse them, they might even play along for the sexual innuendo or the potential for real sex, but really, the reason they are unfazed by her dramatics/attention-seeking is they have no feelings for her to be hurt, plus they don't have to be around it 24/7. When they are tired of it they can leave and take a break.

While I don't want to say the answer is stop caring, as long as you are emotionally involved, and especially if you're in a living position where you can't so easily take a break, it's going to be difficult to maintain your boundaries. People say it's healthy to set boundaries and while true, what they really mean is people should be able to explain their boundaries once, maybe twice, maybe a periodic reminder, but nobody really wants a constant fight about the same things over and over endlessly. It's exhausting.

If she does have HPD, you might break a little ground now and then trying to set your boundaries in a fair and adult way, but odds are she is just going to forget soon enough anyway, or indulge in a new game of poking and prodding your triggers to see what you do. A strong NARC type might be able to fight back longer, but NARCs can be made to utterly break down once someone figures out their ego weakness triggers. An AsPD type might be able to fight back indefinitely, but odds are pretty good it's because they don't care, it's just a game, there are little or no feelings on their part to be hurt, and if hurt or annoyed too much, watch out, they'll get abusive or just leave when they are done with her.

People say it's healthy to set boundaries and while true, what they really mean is people should be able to explain their boundaries once, maybe twice, maybe a periodic reminder, but nobody really wants a constant fight about the same things over and over endlessly. It's exhausting.

If she does have HPD, you might break a little ground now and then trying to set your boundaries in a fair and adult way, but odds are she is just going to forget soon enough anyway, or indulge in a new game of poking and prodding your triggers to see what you do.

That is helpful, thanks!

There's no way I could tolerate her nuttiness and enjoy living here if I didn't at least "like" K, but reality is, she is basically a stranger to me. She will forget and she will push and prod, but I'm actually not capable of giving her what she wants (I can avoid, but I can't lie), so it felt great saying no to her. I paid for it later, but the important part of the whole exercise is to really take in the relief I got from setting a boundary - and enjoy it. This is a functional deficit that keeps me at a distinct disavantage when interacting with anyone, but it's something I can only improve thru practice.

AvDPs are known to be approval and connection seeking, but I don't necessarily care if people "like" me. I was always confused by my capacity to give in to people I don't even like or respect, but now I understand it a little better. I need everyone to be happy, so nothing threatens to disturb my peace, because I don't really know how to tolerate my anxiety. Like I said, I'm not afraid of her, just her anger, which is triggering for me in the extreme. At this point, even mild irritation from a kid is hard to take (exaggerating), but it is getting better.

I decided to stay here because I don't have an emotional investment in K, but I knew she would be putting an emotional investment in me, was likely to be frustrated and wouldn't be subtle about it. I'm willing to endure the anxiety this brings, but only bc I have a therapist helping me thru it. It took me several days to even feel like myself, next time hopefully will be better.

Thanks again, your remarks were really helpful.

scout -

That's probably why a lot of us try/tried to hang in there. We knew we were getting our egos bruised, but had something to prove to ourselves, or learn about ourselves. Like you, learning to set boundaries is/was something we could take away from the relationship even if the relationship was doomed to end.