Do HPD's know they are lying?

No, they do not know that they are lying because in their mind, they are not lying. They are MASTER manipulators who instinctively know how to create any situation to their advantage so that their actions and the consequences of their actions are justified. Example, true story: My HPD mother, age 70 10 years ago had breast calcifications. She went to 4 doctors, 3 said best thing to do is remove the calcifications. 4th said best thing to do remove the breast. Being HPD and Munchausen she opted for the removal of her breast and reconstructive surgery. had an implant put in the other breast so it would look as good and the reconstructive breast, even though she had implants previously and sued the implant maker for causing her auto immune disease. Now 10 years later, she is taking mexatexrate for autoimmune disease (mystery disease). She wants a new wig which is very, very expensive. So, she shaves her head, claiming that she wants to grow the grey out and that the medication is thinning her hair. Then, goes to the American Cancer Society and gets 2 free real hair wigs because she tells them she is a breast cancer survivor (the calcifications), is taking her chemo medication (the mexatextrate) and has lost her hair. Tell me if this a lie or not? This is how they lie but set it up to convince themselves that they are not lying.

reneemf wrote:No, they do not know that they are lying because in their mind, they are not lying. They are MASTER manipulators who instinctively know how to create any situation to their advantage so that their actions and the consequences of their actions are justified. Example, true story: My HPD mother, age 70 10 years ago had breast calcifications. She went to 4 doctors, 3 said best thing to do is remove the calcifications. 4th said best thing to do remove the breast. Being HPD and Munchausen she opted for the removal of her breast and reconstructive surgery. had an implant put in the other breast so it would look as good and the reconstructive breast, even though she had implants previously and sued the implant maker for causing her auto immune disease. Now 10 years later, she is taking mexatexrate for autoimmune disease (mystery disease). She wants a new wig which is very, very expensive. So, she shaves her head, claiming that she wants to grow the grey out and that the medication is thinning her hair. Then, goes to the American Cancer Society and gets 2 free real hair wigs because she tells them she is a breast cancer survivor (the calcifications), is taking her chemo medication (the mexatextrate) and has lost her hair. Tell me if this a lie or not? This is how they lie but set it up to convince themselves that they are not lying.

I can completely relate to the example you gave. However speaking for myself, somewhere in the back of my head I would have known from the beginning there really was never any cancer and I wanted the attention, the drama.

IMO many HPDs willfully and consciously lie, if it suits their supply needs. There is a certain point at which HPD and NPD start to resemble each other, and another in which HPD and AsPD start to overlap, as well.
In the other direction, the greater the depth of dissociation, the more HPDs are like BPDs, and IMO this is where they are more likely they are to not know, or only vaguely know, that they are lying.

I find it interesting that many Non guys are keenly interested in this question (in some cases obsessively so - often with trepidation): "Do HPDs know they are lying?", while simultaneously, many HPDs strenuously deny that they ever lie, even going so far as to claim that they have way more empathy than ordinary folk (hmmm, most everyone occaisionally lies a little; they must be saints, or something ).
Coincidently, HPD marriages relationships have been characterized by some (i.e., see old posts by Tattered Knight in the HPD forum) as pretty dismal affairs, i.e., worrying about other dudes chatting it up with wifey or g/f on the couch when walking in the door home from work...and perhaps her claiming that they are just her friends...?
Whatever their awareness, what I have noticed is that some who claim to be HPD consistently tell obvious, easily detected lies...much like their evidently preferred associates, the AsPDs.

Someone said beauty (and truth) are in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps a uniquely human ability, is the ability to selectively choose perception, even mentally re-write history, to suit what we want to believe. There are multiple reasons a person may do that, including a stubborn refusal to feel remorse or guilt. Sometimes people say guilt is toxic. It won't change the future, it won't change the past, and that's true. But that can also be twisted such that a person can plan to do the same thing over and over, block out what they've learned from the past because it would mean giving up something they want now or in the future, or...

One thing I've observed about sociopath types is that once they go so far as to commit a heinous crime it becomes near impossible for them to turn back. To learn anything they'd have to process the harm they've caused others, and that would leave them feeling guilty/remorseful, bad about themselves. The only way for some of them to go forward and live with themselves is to convince themselves their victims deserved it, and prove it again and again. Basically they have to lie to themselves repeatedly until they really believe their own lies because they can no longer face the truth.

Quoting X Dude

One thing I've observed about sociopath types is that once they go so far as to commit a heinous crime it becomes near impossible for them to turn back. To learn anything they'd have to process the harm they've caused others, and that would leave them feeling guilty/remorseful, bad about themselves. The only way for some of them to go forward and live with themselves is to convince themselves their victims deserved it, and prove it again and again. Basically they have to lie to themselves repeatedly until they really believe their own lies because they can no longer face the truth.

Good point. I remember reading how Bundy had all kinds of insight for an investigator who was trying to catch the Green River Serial murderer, yet evidently out of his own fear of looking inside Bundy would provide no details on his own killings.
Disingenuous HPD behavior is probably not so often criminal, but nevertheless is antisocial. Assuming the inability to look inside and to self-censure comes first, due to the primary fear of introspection, then all the social failures occur (i.e., relationship failures), which elicits frustration, which over time becomes anger, which over time becomes rage, which is projected outward as aggression, even sadism, while that original primary inability to introspect remains all along. So you end up with a cynical, exploitative personality that uses aggression as an added defense mechanism to a basic underlying fear.

The 'school of hard knocks' path to cynical, disingenuous antisocial HPD behavior

orion8591 wrote:...
Disingenuous HPD behavior is probably not so often criminal, but nevertheless is antisocial. Assuming the inability to look inside and to self-censure comes first, due to the primary fear of introspection, then all the social failures occur (i.e., relationship failures), which elicits frustration, which over time becomes anger, which over time becomes rage, which is projected outward as aggression, even sadism, while that original primary inability to introspect remains all along. So you end up with a cynical, exploitative personality that uses aggression as an added defense mechanism to a basic underlying fear. ...

Yes, sorry I didn't mean to imply that HPD types commit criminal acts, but there are parallels to the sociopath type who wants what they want, lacks empathy, and ends up blaming the victims.

It's difficult for any of us to acknowledge to ourselves our part in our relationship failures. Still it's one thing when two people slowly grow apart. It's another when relationships fail often/quickly due to frequent emotional (sometimes physical) cheating with others. The more often it happens, the less likely the person with HPD is likely to accept that their own behavior is a key factor in why their relationships fail. To acknowledge that would mean feeling bad about themselves, so easier to convince themselves that it's the other person's fault they strayed. Even if the other person tries very had to make the relationship work, it's all too easy for the person with HPD to convince themselves that they were pushed into emotional/physical cheating. It ends up being a good deal for the person with HPD because they get what they want (more attention), and because they also believe it's always their partner's fault, no guilt/remorse.

p.s. Keep in mind we hear from self-aware people with HPD on this forum. Many with the disorder are completely unaware there is anything wrong with them. They really have convinced themselves they are just victims.

One thing I've observed about sociopath types is that once they go so far as to commit a heinous crime it becomes near impossible for them to turn back. To learn anything they'd have to process the harm they've caused others, and that would leave them feeling guilty/remorseful, bad about themselves. The only way for some of them to go forward and live with themselves is to convince themselves their victims deserved it, and prove it again and again. Basically they have to lie to themselves repeatedly until they really believe their own lies because they can no longer face the truth.

This is scary to me, because although my ex-wife did not commit a crime (even though the pain I felt certainly hurt like hell), this is exactly the type of behavior she is exhibiting. She has garnered the support of literally EVERYONE on her side of the family, to the point that none of them will even speak to me without dirty looks, angry tones, and just a general aura of disgust when I am in their presence. It's scary to me because I worry she will try to alienate me with my children over time. I love my son and daughter so much, and I know they are too young to pick up on her self-hatred which she clearly and VERY SUDDENLY began projecting onto me after 7 years of normalcy.

Luckily I still have the house they've lived in the majority of their lives, but I only get to hold them and love them like 4 days a month, and just the possibility of their love for me being intentionally diminished by her over time makes me very sad.....

reneemf wrote:No, they do not know that they are lying because in their mind, they are not lying.

Thanks reneemf, this certainly seems to be the case from my perspective. I tried so hard to give her everything she ever asked for... And I know in my heart I didn't do anything even remotely close which would justify the hellish wrath she put on my head....

She often verbally ripped her two previous boyfriends to shreds, and now I can see I'm just #3 on that list. I just don't get it at all, and have come to the realization that the 2 other guys probably weren't so bad after all.

It's amazing to me why no one on her side or the FOC even attempted to sniff around for hints of her bull$hit..... Mountain of evidence disputing her lies, and it's like no one even read any of it...

What a total mind f_ck this has been for me....

And I think she’s finally starting to realize I’ve completely given up on her. She got everything she wanted, her delusion is now accepted by her family as reality, and now she’s free to pursue the next victim. And she’s most likely very proud of herself. In her mind, even though her children miss me a great deal, this is success.

All I can do is pray for her and my children.

Response to ridingthewtfbus --

I think with a wife or ex wife who is BPD/NPD and/or HPD there is not much you can do with respect to the manipulation, lies, cheating, emotional abuse, financial abuse, judicial abuse, etc. Her person is a gaping hole, with no bottom. It is dark and frightening the deeper you fall and the more you sink into her hole the worse off you will be. My father went through the same things you are likely going through. The light went on for him after 17 years of marriage when she divorced him for another guy (he next victim as my father was husband No. 4) and took EVERYTHING and put him through hell. He then realized, with counseling, that she was not a mentally or emotionally healthy person and NEVER would be. Therefore he focused on us children and only us and refused to respond to her BS, as hard as that was, and we all came out okay--we have healthy relationships and loving children. Focus on your children who deserve your attention and the happiness they bring you, and as hard as it (and I know it is hard because she knows how suck you in before you know its happening) do not give her your attention for the simple reason that she is underserving of it. It is about you and your children, not her. I wish you well.