Do HPD's know they are lying?

riding -

I'm sure you've read about the two Boston Marathon bombing suspects who after committing a heinous cruel act killing and injuring many, were then seen in public places the next day carrying on like nothing had happened. Their 'friends' and families suspected nothing, and even described them as 'nice' people.

Most of us just can't get our heads around how someone could do something like that, and feel nothing about it up to and including acting entirely "normal" before and after such a crime, and while the bombers are an extreme case, the reality is such people exist.

Unfortunately a disordered thinker can often live a full life without most people ever suspecting that what's going on in their head is very different from the rest of us. We people generally assume others think/feel like us, so the notion that we're dealing with someone who acts like us, but thinks/feels radically differently doesn't come naturally. In other words, as frustrating as it is, there is really no way to convince others she has issues. They'll either come to see it for themselves because they are negatively affected, or they just won't.

I do hope for your sake that in the long run you and your kids are able to have a good relationship, though it may be many years before they are old enough to sort out what is what for themselves.

Excellent feedback all. Thank you so much!

reneemf wrote:Her person is a gaping hole, with no bottom. It is dark and frightening

Thanks reneemf, you're right, and I simply had no clue she was capable of sinking so low. I'd probably have 50/50 if she simply hadn't moved in with mommy and daddy several counties away. The fact that she's demonized and devalued me in her head to the point where she thinks the kids are better off only seeing me 4 days a month instead of joint physical is very disturbing to me. The fact that her entire family apparently believes her lies is also disturbing.

xdude wrote:as frustrating as it is, there is really no way to convince others she has issues. They'll either come to see it for themselves because they are negatively affected, or they just won't.

This hits the nail squarely on the head... I just feel so helpless. I can only hope and pray the truth comes out eventually. Maybe, just maybe, she will make enough mistakes that the court will start to see she's maliciously putting her own desires above her children's.

Hi There:
I have not had time to read all the posts wtfbus, but based upon your situation as I understand it from the early posts, here is what I think based upon my own experiences from the past. I believe that an HP perhaps often mixes lies and truth together unintentionally. Almost like they have their own version of events that no one witnessing the same would share. Perhaps they sometimes live in their own self-centred world with their own self-centred reality. I think reality and fiction can become fused in challenging situation to create their own truth that fits with their wished reality of their world; or what they want to believe (perhaps some dissociation here due to stress...). This can cause frustration for you, me and others on the recieving end because we know their reality can be a distortion of the real events and can put us in a bad light. Our integrity may be sacrificed by them in front of important others in order to save their own. Unfortunately, through experience, I can say that I don't think you will be able to do anything about that. You must remain calm and stable facing what may often seem to be outrageous claims and injustices. In the longer-term proof is always in the pudding, so no matter what she says, her acts are what become important over time; and though she may be able to pull the wool over some peoples eyes now, I don't think it will last. Of course those that see through are likely to be dismissed from her circle and replaced with others etc; we know the score, but don't worry about that. You keep yourself stable, show dignity and calm facing her reality, and if you have not already done so, get into sports big time. It shall really help you get your frustrations out in a positive way whilst keeping both your body and mind in shape. You will need to be in shape for your childrens sake.

Good luck
Musician

Thank you so much Musician. Reading how other people have dealt with this type of behavior has been extremely helpful.

I'm doing the best I can to remain as positive and stable for my children as possible. I hope you're right that eventually her actions will expose the truth and vindicate me. Regardless, my children will one day be old enough to decide for themselves.

Just caught her lying to her own attorney yesterday. Hilarious. If he enjoys spending my money I hope for his sake he doesn't call her out on it. He'll quickly get devalued and dismissed, too, just like everybody else in her life she no longer feels is required. It's only a matter of time before her volcano of lies begins to scream the truth.

They do know, but they don't care.
They are like the producer and director of their own film. They make up the storylines, and change them if they want, when they want. The truth makes absolutely no difference.
A friend of mine who has been married for many years recently found his wife (I will call her Julie) has had a couple of affairs.
He has found emails, texts, and was even in touch the man's wife who suspected her husband was having an having an affair with julie. When he confronted Julie she denied everything, even though the men involved admitted it!
He found a hotel room booked by her, so he followed her and waited outside the hotel.
Late at night he found out which room she was in with her boyfriend, called her on his phone and said I'm coming up.
She rushed down, there was a blazing row.
She was angry, said "How dare he follow her, act like a jealous idiot, when all she was doing was meeting an old male friend for a chat"
He asked, why a hotel room for the night if its just 'a chat'
"WELL I WANTED A PRIVATE CHAT"!! Its none of your business she said.

So, he has texts, emails, confirmation from a cheated on wife, confirmation from the males she's been with (who had been mutual friends of theirs) and even caught her in a hotel room with her latest male 'friend' and guess what?
She denies everything. Calls him a liar.
She has now left and is lying to the children who he is devoted too. Making herself into the 'Poor little victim' Denying any wrong doing, and even though the children know she was cheating, one of them in particular seems to believe her lies and is being poisoned against him which he's finding very hurtful.
Yup they know they are lying.
And her whole family who he's always got on well with will not speak to him or have anything to do with him.
She's told them a pack of lies, which they choose to believe. I think her mother is NPD too. They are all joining in with the narcissistic games, the lies, gaslighting, lies, manipulation, and more lies.
How to deal with it. Difficult, apart from trying to avoid drama. With narcs its a good idea to record all conversations if possible.

Thanks YSL. I agree. There's no way she could lie this much and be so absolutely delusional about it... Considering the fact that she's already alienated me with everyone she interacts with and even continues to do so, the trend will most likely continue, and her lies will even be fed to her own children. How sad....

I've definitely also seen symptoms of NPD and BPD in my ex. Particularly the "splitting" behavior, occasional raging, and the attitude like "I'm doing this room a favor just by being in it", frequently vocalizing compliments directed at self, etc.

I often wonder if those with PD's have some kind of brain confusion where they think they're telling the truth, but they're not. I know that some purposely lie, but I know that there are many times when my BPDH really thinks he's telling the truth. I've seen times when he's confronted with the truth and he truly looks stunned to learn that what he said isn't true.

Plus, he's always been very bad (childish) in regards to "you never do anything for me," or "I never get to do anything fun" (just like a 4 year old) and then I have to remind him of 10 recent events that refute his claims. Again, he's stunned...he'll remember once I point them out, but before that, his mind is blank.

I know that "fish tales" are very common. I'll hear a story "grow" with each retelling to the point that the current version no longer resembles the true version.

And, I've been accused of saying things that no way would I have ever said...yet H truly believes that I did. I do think he has very realistic dreams and sometimes confuses dreams with reality. One time he said that I said that his dad was an alcoholic. (H told his family this, which is another reason that they hate me) I would never say that. His dad rarely ever drank! I think he dreamed this, but he argued and raged that I said that. I told him, "hey, your dad has enough faults that I dont need to make any up." lol

Anyway...I wonder if those with PD's have some kind of brain confusion (someone described it as brain dyslexia) where things get mixed-up in their heads.

A 90 degree take -

There is quite a lot written on how often the average person is deceptive. Mostly we think of this as 'comb-over' lies, to keep the peace and maintain social norms. Likewise if we really think about it, odds are most of us don't necessarily want to hear every thought about us that runs through other people's minds. In some scenarios people may even demand others be deceptive (e.g., the boss who demands employees agree even if that's not what they are really thinking).

At times it seems to me that those with certain disorders can be hyper-aware of inconsistencies in what others say (or think) and what they feel (it's very hard to entirely hide our emotional responses). I can only guess this has to do with their own discomfort over their own mix of emotions and thoughts.

If so it does make me wonder if part of the issue at play is that some disordered people find it very hard to really trust others, because often they are sensing others are being deceptive? What I mean is what a NON might think of as a kindness (weighing their partners feelings, against their own mixed feelings, and avoiding certain truths or sugar-coating, to protect their partners feelings), a disordered person may perceive as a deception and with that, triggers fears of deeper deceptions?