Core Question

It's been a while since I've had anything to ask, since things have been going pretty well between Johann and I. c: Thank you to everyone for your advise and responses in the past.

There have always been questions about who the core of Johann's mind was. We finally discovered it was Luke (whose real name is Johann, but goes by Luke because the host's name is Yohann). ...only to end up with a conflict that leads to their actually being two cores.

See, at first I thought that HIM and Luke split at age six when Luke overheard his parents say something one night that still haunts him to this day - because that was the end of Luke's time as host and the beginning of Chibi's time as host because Luke went dormant and HIM could not maintain the body for extended periods of time without getting woozy and blacking out. But HIM and Luke and I were talking this evening...and we were talking about 'the beginning'. And I asked Luke if HIM was always there with him or if he split at some point. I asked, 'Was that second voice always there?' (which is a phrase some alters in his mind have used before becoming co-conscious in their explanations to me, they would explain the existence of others as just voices) and Luke nodded and told me yes. When I asked HIM if he was the core too and how on Earth that was possible, HIM proceeded to pull out the yin-yang necklace I gave them a few months ago, without saying anything.
I stared at it for a moment and then he told me, 'You have the dark half, and you have the innocent half. That's why this means so much to me.'
I continued to stare at it and Luke switched back out sort of into a blended or joined possession with HIM. 'So...you're the part of Johann that existed as a child who wanted to fight and get into trouble. And Luke is everything that Johann really was but never got the chance to be. Small and innocent. --I'm not calling him weak or anything--'
'He is weak.'
'I am weak...'
'HIM, that's mean. Luke, you are not.' Pause. 'If Luke is your other half, why did you try to merge him and Yohann?'
'I wanted to give him a backbone, maybe he'd stop being such a coward and stand up for himself. All I've been doing is protecting his ass.'

This whole conversation came about because Luke had been trying to talk to me all evening, but HIM kept interrupting and Luke wasn't strong enough to push him out of possession or block him, and HIM was pushing him out of possession like it was nothing. In fact, Luke put up a "wall" so that none of the others could take possession while he was out and HIM still managed to get around it (thus I started speaking to both of them). There's no conflict between the two of them, though. I mean, Luke wishes HIM would give him his time with me - but HIM is the jerk half, and Luke is the innocent and sensitive half. They do respect each other, and if Luke had insisted, HIM probably would have backed off, but Luke didn't say anything to HIM, he just tried to block him.

I get these...really fragile vibes whenever Luke comes out. I mean, I'm an Empath and I read people. But when Luke takes possession...the reading I get from him is like...just saying the wrong thing would shatter the whole situation. It's like I'm staring at an infant, even though he claims to be twenty-four. I don't get those vibes from HIM, he's the complete opposite.

Luke sounds to me like your typical (according to most standards, anyway) core, while HIM does not. Yet both Luke and HIM insist they were both there when the body was born.

Is it possible for there to be two cores? That Johann was just born with DID before any of the trauma occurred and the traumas just split his mind further?

I think the whole idea of a core in a DID system is over-blown. Splitting is like branching in a tree. All branches begin as tiny buds. In many kinds of trees buds are formed in pairs. Neither bud is "the original", but one bud may be held in stasis while the other develops. What we sometimes label the "core" in a DID system is analogous to the earliest tree bud that has not developed along with the rest of the tree.

In my system, the least developed alter was my Alter 1. Alter 1 was a very large emotional part that had the overwhelming emotional neediness, the desperate need for attachment, of an infant. Alter 1 was prevocal.

MK91 wrote:I get these...really fragile vibes whenever Luke comes out. I mean, I'm an Empath and I read people. But when Luke takes possession...the reading I get from him is like...just saying the wrong thing would shatter the whole situation. It's like I'm staring at an infant, even though he claims to be twenty-four. I don't get those vibes from HIM, he's the complete opposite.

I experience similar vibes internally, coming from Alter 1. I experience the same quality of vibes coming at times from someone I know, who I think also is a multiple. As best as I can tell, this vibe signals a moment of intersubjective attunement. It is precious. It is at the heart of every psychologically therapeutic relationship.

Do you mind if I put this on my blog?

tylas wrote:Do you mind if I put this on my blog?

Yes, I do mind. I do not give permission to have my contributions here copied elsewhere. If you like, you can refer your blog readers here. Thanks!

This is a great audio on Ego States

http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/ego_state_maps.html

Core information

http://www.internet-of-the-mind.com/hum ... tages.html

I tend to agree with Una about the core question. That said, I do have what seems at least to be a stereotypical alter who was the so-called original from which another alter split off. Adam was, apparently at least, the first one who went inside to sleep at roughly age one or before. But I don't think that he holds anything like an original personality or anything. Can someone even have an original personality at age one? What if the abuse started soon after birth as things seem to indicate and it took months for the gatekeeper to split off as it seems happened? I know no one is exactly asking this question.

I have no doubt there are some systems where, when the first division occurs, both new alters continue to function in different situations and no one goes into hiding, so who would be the core there? Some alters seem to have a lot of emotional investment in whether they are the core or not. That makes sense to me because it might seem eerie to think you yourself were just "invented," although obviously that's not what really happens. For me, finding out I came when I did helped solve an inner suspicion I'd always had that I was a pretender of some kind. So the knowledge came as a relief for me.

I think there might be circumstances in which someone could lay claim to being "the core." Maybe the first division occurred at, say, age 5, and to that point there was a particular personality. Then the division left that personality more or less the same, but created a new, different personality. The first could say, I'm what we were like originally. Even if this were the case, I'm not sure what "the original core" would mean. Does it mean better, higher rank, more rights to the body?

Then there's the whole issue that Tylas has been touching on in another post sort about the true inner self, apart from all the alters, or at least that's how I'm getting it. That's another type of "core," like the real true self. I sense we might all be getting a feel for that (future?) fellow, but maybe it's just an awareness of what instincts we all seems to share, what personality traits everybody we know of has. These shared traits are few but when they show up, it feels obvious that's who we really are at some level.

I like the question and topic a lot and have been thinking of asking some questions about the topic of "the core."

Very interesting post Johnny Jack!

MK91 wrote:Is it possible for there to be two cores? That Johann was just born with DID before any of the trauma occurred and the traumas just split his mind further?

I didn't really try to answer your question, Shawna. DID is something that develops over time so I'm pretty sure you can't be born with it, like being born with a cleft palate. It doesn't make sense to me and I've never read of anything like that.

Johnny-Jack wrote:Can someone even have an original personality at age one? What if the abuse started soon after birth as things seem to indicate and it took months for the gatekeeper to split off as it seems happened?

That's the thing, Johnny-Jack. Unlike most of the cases of DID, Johann was never abused as a child, he just experienced a lot of traumatizing events at such an early age that his mind just split in order to comprehend it all. Yet both HIM and Luke have memories that go back to age three (because who remembers being an infant? I certainly don't o_o), their memories start and end in the same place and their present day memories are always identical. I'm fairly certain HIM is the Gatekeeper because of how he functions in the system, but again, he's adamant he doubles as Luke's other half.

I have no doubt there are some systems where, when the first division occurs, both new alters continue to function in different situations and no one goes into hiding, so who would be the core there? Some alters seem to have a lot of emotional investment in whether they are the core or not. That makes sense to me because it might seem eerie to think you yourself were just "invented," although obviously that's not what really happens.

I can understand that. Luke seems almost to just...quietly accept that he's the core when HIM tells him that and does everything he can to defend him, but HIM is also insistent that they're both the core. Everyone else accepts that they were split from either Luke or HIM (Yohann and Chibi split from Luke but were influenced by HIM, and Kiddo, Johnny, and Jack split from HIM), but HIM is adamant he didn't split from anyone.

I think there might be circumstances in which someone could lay claim to being "the core." Maybe the first division occurred at, say, age 5, and to that point there was a particular personality. Then the division left that personality more or less the same, but created a new, different personality. The first could say, I'm what we were like originally. Even if this were the case, I'm not sure what "the original core" would mean. Does it mean better, higher rank, more rights to the body?

That's the strange part...HIM doesn't want claims to the body, he wants to give it to Luke. He just wants to be near Luke and able to push him out of possession if he feels Luke is in danger. That's what HIM has always done, he has always existed as the second alter who protects the host, which is why he claims to have existed since Luke was 'host'.

I didn't really try to answer your question, Shawna. DID is something that develops over time so I'm pretty sure you can't be born with it, like being born with a cleft palate. It doesn't make sense to me and I've never read of anything like that.

Really? Because I've heard that DID can be genetic, and part of me suspects that Johann's mother might have it too. I'll never be able to deny or confirm it, but just...the way she acts, especially towards Johann even when myself or his friends are around...Johann seems to think she might too. Because of the way she switches moods (and I don't think it's bipolar disorder), Johnny is the only one who can speak to her half the time because a lot of the things she says will upset the others. She even made Jack cry one night...and that's saying something. ._.

it was asked if there's an original personality even at age 1. my answer to this is, maybe, maybe not. i know nothing about babies and their development at ALL, but i have read some research saying newborns' brains are scattered and start solidifying over time, somewhat like the soft spot thinger on their skulls. adolescence scientifically doesn't end until a person has reached between the ages of 24 and 26, so i can see why some professionals dont' care to recognise "alters" in teenages, because your brain isn't even completely solidified until the mid-20s. that's a moot point though, and i've digressed.

here are some of My Own thoughts on this, being a multiple prior to abuse/trauma, and is it that aspect necessary for the formation of alters...

every single person on this planet has the capability to dissociate, whether it be a little ("road hypnosis") or severely (complete "splits").

some have a higher ability. it's a coping mechanism. the younger the person, the more they tap into this ability, and find it helpful, the more they'll use it. the greater their "strength" will become.

abuse is not always necessary. trauma is enough (see The Three Faces of Eve), even those circumstantial traumas which are damaging to the psyche, but are not intentional, nor avoidable.

a child may be born with an intense and *innate* capability to dissociate. it's a skill just like any other. are there "natural multiples" out there? probably. i don't believe every case of multiplicity stems from the Trauma-Model that became wildly popular after the exposure to Sybil and the SRA/RA scares of the '80s and '90s. (but i also find it difficult to understand the "natural plurality" movement on the edges of many MPD/DiD communities, with walk-ins, fictives, portals to other worlds, body-jumping.... but that's an entirely different topic.)

so here's my theory, and i think about this a lot, much more than i probably should:

some are, plain and simply, a natural dissociative. some are so good at it, at such a young age, with such strength, that it's "normal" for them. add in something traumatic and/or abusive, and it could solidify this "talent" into "coping". add in some reinforcement, and BAM, it's your only way of dealing. how this child's life plays out in the end, the skills they learn outside their "organic dissociation capabilities", their structures, their education, their experiences, their feedbacks, other mental glitches, their nature-vs-nurture, everything determines how far along the "disorder" spectrum they may wind up by adulthood.

like they say with all "mental disorders", everybody has traits of something. it's not always a bad thing. but when it overpowers and takes away from a happy, productive, functional, fulfilling life, then it becomes an illness, a disorder.

are the alters/dissociation a disorder? not necessarily. it is always (only) caused by "abuse"? i tend to think No. and all Trauma is relative, so ... like i said above, reinforcement of an already naturally dissociative child, thus turning maladaptive, and spilling what could be a structured functional "system" into chaos.

these are my theories and ideas, take from them what you will. i hope it helped somehow.

~*entropy*~