Who are your Apparently Normal Parts? ANP

brandic - Tylas, I don't think an EP *necessarily* holds trauma memories, I just think the distinguishing factor is that they are emotional.

"Emotional Parts (EP) - The EP remains fixated in the traumatic experiences, which it often reenacts. It is focused on a narrow range of cues that were relevant to the trauma."

Who you describe as your ANP number 2 seems emotional to me, and I would think they were an EP versus an ANP.

"The ANP MUST avoid the affect and information held by the EP including nightmares, dreams, somnambulism, intrusive thoughts, flashbacks and some somatoform symptoms. The ANP is vigilantly avoident of the information and affect held by the EP." What I think are my ANP's have no knoweldge of the EP's or the system and have worked hard to keep them from me.

The way I think about these labels (and I have to remember that they are just labels) is that one is emotional and one is unemotional.

Sort of, but not exactly. All parts of us are emotional one way or another, but not all parts function as the host does. See the definitions in " ' above as given by the author of the book.

What's confusing about this whole notion that with DDNOS you only have one ANP and with DID you have more than one is why then do I know of two unemotional parts of myself (me, host, and a very unemotional gatekeeper type) and yet not have an amnesia barrier (that I know of)? It seems I would break that rule, since it seems as though I have DDNOS (due to no amnesia) and I have two ANPs.

If a Gatekeepers is the same as the ISH/Orgainizer/Manager/ .. it is very different from other alters. Don't mix up host or ANP with Gatekeeper.

Or maybe I have it wrong - maybe an EP is an emotional part, and an ANP is an unemotional HOST.

Yes, this is sort of right as I understand it, but unemotional is a strong word and there are parts that influence it.


That would make more sense, because my gatekeeper type person hardly ever talks and has only come out one time in therapy. Hmm...

Mine hangs out during therapy or anytime I get an email from my therapist.

Check out this summary of the first half of the book. It might make more sense if you get more of the information. Pay attention to the definitions of host/core , ANP and EP

post539783.html#p539783

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Aecy wrote:My system is actually very unsettled by the distinction, as parts seem to in some cases be able to have switched between the two. And I think the terms "normal" and "emotional", as if emotions aren't normal and it's normal to not have emotions, make it really hard to see the theory objectively for most of me, even if it's not what is meant. I wish there was a better way of stating it. :T

What human is not unsettled by change? Keep in mind the original terms given in 1940 were for soldiers exhibiting PTSD. They certainly had what appeared to be a normal part and an emotional part (flashbacks)

It goes not change who you are, they are just labels. Science is always changing and learning more. It's a good thing! See this page. It might clear things up. post539783.html#p539783

Okay, I'm trying to understand...

So an ANP is the part or parts who manage in day-to-day life, and is shielded from the affects/memories of the trauma. An EP is one who is "caught" in the trauma, or an aspect of the trauma, and relives those via flashbacks, depression, panic, etc. Am I right so far?

What I'm confused about then is, is the host always an ANP? And/or is the ANP always a host? That's what is confusing me. To be honest, the whole notion of "host" confuses the heck out of me, but that's another story. Can one's "host" be an EP, or is that impossible, since they are caught in the trauma memories? And can an ANP not be a host part? And if not, what role would they play?

I think the more I'm learning about this, the more I'm realizing (or thinking) that I do only have one ANP - which would be me, the host - and which also explains the lack of dissociative amnesia. And I totally get what you're saying about how saying "unemotional" is not an accurate depiction, because we all have emotional elements to us. I am not completely unemotional - if I was, I wouldn't be human!

brandic - Okay, I'm trying to understand...

So an ANP is the part or parts who manage in day-to-day life, and is shielded from the affects/memories of the trauma. An EP is one who is "caught" in the trauma, or an aspect of the trauma, and relives those via flashbacks, depression, panic, etc. Am I right so far?

YES!!! YAY!!! Perfect!!! You are like me. Breaking it down in sections makes it so much easier.


What I'm confused about then is, is the host always an ANP? And/or is the ANP always a host? That's what is confusing me.

This is what I am trying to figure out! I don't know if anyone knows. This is what is up for debate as long as one sticks with the theory at hand.


To be honest, the whole notion of "host" confuses the heck out of me, but that's another story. Can one's "host" be an EP, or is that impossible, since they are caught in the trauma memories? And can an ANP not be a host part? And if not, what role would they play?

Yes, and it will as long as scientist keep digging in and finding out more things. This is good though!
I can't comprehend how a host can be an EP, no. What use would an ANP be if it did not act as host?

I think the more I'm learning about this, the more I'm realizing (or thinking) that I do only have one ANP - which would be me, the host - and which also explains the lack of dissociative amnesia. And I totally get what you're saying about how saying "unemotional" is not an accurate depiction, because we all have emotional elements to us. I am not completely unemotional - if I was, I wouldn't be human!

EXACTLY!!!!

And on the good side. I would hope we all would celebrate if we have DD-NOS instead of DID! But we do want to know usually even though treatment is the same. As the books says... DD-NOS is ALMOST DID. I think of DD-NOS as one stop closer to healing than if you have DID.

I (think) i am/was the only ANP.

others were EPs, protectors, ISH.

The only bit that makes me wonder is this:

i dont know if anyone remembers my comment about finding i'd locked myself in but not remembering doing it? well after integration, i remember locking myself in. that means someone was "out" while i was asleep.
when i was at my worst, people were telling me i'd done things a few minutes ago, and i'd get upset and start arguing that i hadn't, and people would find it really funny and take the piss, which upset me even more.

does an alter have to be an ANP for me to lose very small chunks of time or take control if im asleep ?

i'm not freaked out any more now lol. mostly im asking out of curiosity.

Whew! I don't deal well with freak out.

protectors - we are iffy here! I will explain in another post

does an alter have to be an ANP for me to lose very small chunks of time or take control if im asleep ?

We know that if an ANP takes over then there is time loss and you have DID and not DD-NOS.

If an EP takes over you can still have amnesia, yes. But the DSM clearly states that if you have amnesia and .... then you have DID.

Agreed?

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Chapter 5 pg 88
The Non-facilitative Environment and Trauma Impede the Normal Liking of Experience:
Putnam's Discrete Behavioral States Model

Understanding what the HOST/Core is and what the Original is (hint.. there is not a original!)

Normal Brain - Rather than resulting from a "shattering" of a previously intact and unified identity, the formation of internal identities stems not only from trauma but also from a "a developmental failure of consolidation and integration of discrete state of consciousness. Putnam's discrete behavioral states (DBS) model of the personality emphasizes that rather than starting out as a unity, the human personality must become integrated over time. Psychological trauma and neglect impede the process of integration. The DBS model describes how mental states, or states of consciousness are the building blocks of human behavior and consciousness.

Trauma to the Brain - One of the important effects of trauma and neglect is that the expected linking of associative pathways among states is impeded. For example: states of terror are not linked with other states of mind. This is particularly likely in a neglectful environment in which the parents or caregivers cannot or will not attune to or help label the child's emotions to help them to connect these emotional states. As a result of trauma the child is then left with overwhelming affect without context and without soothing, resulting in disjointed, out of context states.


So... Originally, behavioral/mental states ARE NOT linked! It is in the course of development, in a facilitative interpersonal environment, that they become linked.


**The important thing to keep in mind is that the part out front most of the time is not the whole person - there are other identities dissociated from this one.

pg 59
Host - the one that has control of the body the body most of the time. They usually uses the name used socially in the world. This part has been kept separate from other encapsulated parts who hold powerful emotions such as rage and terror, as well as memories that would be too destabilizing for the functioning of the person if the host were conscious of them.

It is frequently noted that the usually presenting part is NOT the original personality. A person's sense of self and identity is built up and synthesized over time. Furthermore, the usually presenting part is, by definition, a part in relationship with other parts in the total organization of the personality. People DO NOT start out life unified but developmentally accomplish the joining and harmonious functioning of different behavioral and mental states.

However!! those people who develop DID are likely to have received much less help from their parents or caregivers in identifying, linking and accepting their emotions and thoughts, such that the internal working models that are developed of relationships are more likely to be contradictory and segregated.

Then the book goes on to talk about the parts that look and act alike as typed in the summary on the other thread.

tylas wrote:Trauma to the Brain - One of the important effects of trauma and neglect is that the expected linking of associative pathways among states is impeded. For example: states of terror are not linked with other states of mind. This is particularly likely in a neglectful environment in which the parents or caregivers cannot or will not attune to or help label the child's emotions to help them to connect these emotional states. As a result of trauma the child is then left with overwhelming affect without context and without soothing, resulting in disjointed, out of context states.

wow. that's my childhood in a paragraph
"states of terror not linked with other states of mind"
"caregivers cannot or will not attune to or help label the child's emotions"

tylas wrote:Host - the one that has control of the body the body most of the time. They usually uses the name used socially in the world. This part has been kept separate from other encapsulated parts who hold powerful emotions such as rage and terror, as well as memories that would be too destabilizing for the functioning of the person if the host were conscious of them.

and that sounds like me. - explaining why those emotions have been able to be so easily dissociated, or just jump out of nowhere with no meaning.

tylas wrote:Whew! I don't deal well with freak out.

lol, ok no freaking out.

tylas wrote:protectors - we are iffy here! I need to read up on this but I think this is just another alter.

agree. some of mine had double roles, like one was both a protector and an EP holding pain from the past - having gone from being unhappy and hurt and lost to being something big and scary that stepped in when we were threatened - and turned out to be a small hurt child underneath!!

tylas wrote:does an alter have to be an ANP for me to lose very small chunks of time or take control if im asleep ?

This goes back to what Una stated and I am unsure of the answer.

We know that if an ANP takes over then there is time loss and you have DID and not DD-NOS.

If an EP takes over you can still have amnesia, yes. But the DSM clearly states that if you have amnesia and .... then you have DID.

Agreed?

oh, ok. (feeling like some sort of small animal now, going "oh".) it hasn't happened often. recently only really when ive been asleep. it happened most when i was at my mum's house i guess a year & a half ago, (just before things got really bad, interestingly.) especially when others were around too. people would tell me you just did that, and you said this and i'd glare at them and say no i didn't! like they were trying to wind me up. and they'd laugh and take the p*ss. it was only like 10min intervals as far as i know. i dont know how i can overlook that exactly.

um ok. agreed. not freaking out, but i suddenly feel slightly physically sick. i dont know why.
...maybe i just ate something bad

still fine. dealing with it. (naaahhhh lol) - but technically i can't really rationalise my way out of that one, can i.

These parts are just more Alters

Protector, Rescuer, Soother Parts

These parts all have different manifestations. They may be overtly protective, as in a care-taking part, often modeled on a real person. Or, they may be invented. Soother parts are often modeled after an adult figure, or an idea of one, such as a protective and caring grandparent who was a source of protection and solace for the patient when she was a child.

Protector parts may also be fighters. There job is to protect the patient from EXTERNAL danger. They might have had the original function of anticipation of or identification with the abuser. To preemptively protect the child so that the child may anticipate the abuse rather that be surprised by it, protector parts become persecutors modeled on the abusers.

I am wondering if the amnesia that characterizes an ANP is more amnesia for trauma (either the events themselves or a loss of personal connection to the memory/emotion/affect) than necessarily switching amnesia (lack of co-presence or co-consciousness) with other ANPs. I feel like if you exclude the presumed switching amnesia from the qualifiers, I have at least two, if not three or four, ANPs. My Observer has told me that someone I thought was an EP played host during most of my teens and I would assume, since an ANP's job is to deal with the outside world, that would make her an ANP? Since EPs hold traumatic memories/affect or have limited defense-based roles, I'm assuming they couldn't really be hosts. So, if she used to be a host, would that make her an ANP? Observer says she got too contaminated and voluntarily quarantined at the insistence of the Caretaker, so we could live a healthier life. But, since she is very depressed and stuck in "aloneness" and that has become her main job, it seems like she's an EP. This is very confusing to me. I'm assuming a past ANP can't change into an EP, right?

Anyway, I have mostly co-presence with the parts I think are ANP, some complete amnesia (but since it's complete, I can't be sure who is "out" at the time, if it's an EP or ANP...I can only make assumptions and listen to the Observer's opinion). However, even when I am co-present and switch back to my (current) host, it isn't like a complete memory. It is very fuzzy and detached and I am unable to feel at all connected to it. It's kind of like knowing what happened, what was done, without having a full-fledged memory of it. So, I have a hard time sensing if I actually experienced it and encoded the memory as "knowledge" or if I was just told/shown enough of what happened for the amnesia to be masked. Is what I'm saying making any sense here? Either way, I have a very real sense of being someone else from moment to moment and I, as host, am disconnected from the EP trauma, whereas the other ANPs seem disconnected from both trauma (complete denial or no emotion about it) and the confusion and overwhelming stress I am experiencing in therapy. I think I am talking myself in circles. Does anyone know what the hell I'm trying to say here?

yakusoku wrote:I am wondering if the amnesia that characterizes an ANP is more amnesia for trauma (either the events themselves or a loss of personal connection to the memory/emotion/affect) than necessarily switching amnesia (lack of co-presence or co-consciousness) with other ANPs.

So we are good on all the stuff from the book! Our only issue is my idea. It's only an idea and it can be very wrong. That is what is up for debate and you are making sense to me, but my theory also makes sense.


So Question: Why does a person with DID loose time and the person with DD-NOS does not?


DD-NOS (Almost DID)
Presentation in which there are NOT 2 or more distinct personalty states, or amnesia for important personal info.

My ANP Theory! Just my idea! This is not a fact!
In DID an ANP will loose time if another ANP takes control. This can only happen in DID because it is the only one that has more than one ANP.


Thinking....

I don't know if your theory is wrong or right, just that my T seems to consider me DID over DDNOS for some reason, but is open to that being wrong, obviously, based on my experience of myself.

I guess my thinking is that amnesia of trauma, of extensive amounts of childhood (and/or adult) memories, is amnesia of important personal information. I don't know if regular contemporary amnesia with ANP is necessary or not. But...if you have complete amnesia, how would you know if an ANP or EP was out, because you'd have complete blanks for that period? I guess, only if that particular part claimed responsibility, but that implies the ANP are aware of one another, which kind of negates what you seem to be saying. It seems like your theory would be that it's impossible for someone with DID to know they have DID (characterized by multiple ANP), because the ANP can't know about one another. Or, that is the way I've looked at it...maybe I'm misunderstanding?

I am trying to think of an example of what I mean by the type of "amnesia" I am describing. The best I can think of is that there are times when all I could tell you about a recent experience is like a list of what happened or what I did, as if that information is not internal, but something I was "told" by an outside party, like if you were to tell someone about a news article you read that didn't relate to you directly. I don't remember specifically being told nor do I remember really experiencing it first-hand. I just "know" things, but if I am asked to recount specific details associated with those experiences, there is either a blank or a "made image" in my mind based on my knowledge of the people and places involved. It doesn't happen this way all of the time and I have only noticed it somewhat recently, so I couldn't even tell you how much of my life is experienced in that sort of way. Sometimes, I will be pushed back and "witness" things happening without much personal initiative, but other times, it simply seems like, "earlier, we did such and such" sort of information.

A good example would be telling a close friend about my DID the other night after he drove me home from band practice for church. I remember telling him about how confusing things are (some personal experiences I was having regarding therapy) and listening to his own story about getting diagnosed with ADD in his adulthood. I could pull several details out of this part of the conversation (his words, my own, thoughts, feelings, sensations, images of where we were when something specific was said). The details are fading a bit, because it was Thursday, but I have a real sense of having been in the conversation. After we arrived at my place and parked outside, I "know" I talked about the intellectual aspects of it, switched into a completely Observer mode of communicating. I do not know exactly what I said or what he replied, but "remember" the topics included disorganized attachment and some other psychology stuff that I can't retrieve. If I try to pull up a memory of the conversation, I can see us from a 3rd person view, sitting in his car in front of my condo. This is obviously a "made" image, because I was inside my body while the conversation took place. I know after this, he told me he has noticed me freeze up for very simple questions and he has always assumed I was "processing," but it fits with what I was describing and I replied, "That would make sense if I were switching/blanking for short periods, as I wouldn't notice the gap." At this point, I was back to a more confused host-state. The more intellectual part of our conversation is "known," but not remembered.

A lot of my journal entries regarding therapy are like this, the Observer writing stuff that is somehow just "known." So, I guess what I am wondering is if this is masked amnesia of a sort...because host-me can often say word for word (or at least paraphrase) entire recent conversations. Since getting into therapy, I am losing that ability more and more. My journal entries have gone from, "When T said ..., then I said ... and felt ..." to "We talked about something regarding ... It is really fuzzy, but it feels like ..." Sometimes, my therapist will ask about something I have written to him in a text or email and even though it sounds vaguely familiar, I do not remember what he is talking about enough to explain to him the details behind what I was trying to communicate. If I go back and read it, it isn't like, "Whoah, there is no way I wrote that!" but I don't have a memory of writing it or what I was thinking while I was writing...rather just that the information was "there" in my head. I am starting to get a headache trying to explain this. Does anyone get what I'm saying???