Alter in love was a mystery to me

Hi Una, et al,

I'm glad DID is ruled out for your kid.

Some schools think that children are the ones that have problems, because as society we expect them all behaving the same. Some kids diagnosed with AHDH, just need a different approach in education. The thing is that it's harder to bend a system.

Any how, be it what ever your kid might have, I wish for him/her a very loving environment and schools that can understand their differences, and can adapt to bring the best of them.

Sea

Una+,

Thank you for the update. You and your children have often been on my mind since you first posted. As you said, it is kind of a nightmare for a mom with DID. I am glad she doesn't seem to have DID and I hope she gets through the challenge with new skills and resources in her emotional toolbox. I hope her crisis is becoming easier for you to navigate now that you can worry less about the chance of DID.

Thank you all for continuing to read this now very long thread and for your kind words of support.

I have a small correction to make. My child's raw score on the Adolescent Dissociative Experiences Scale (ADES) was 24, and the scaled score was 0.8 not 2.4 as I stated previously.

The scaled score is used so that results may be compared more easily. The ADES that was given to my child has 30 items and a maximum possible raw score of 30x10 = 300. Normally the result is stated on a scale of 1 to 10 by dividing the raw score by the number of items used. If for some reason the interviewer chooses not to use an item, the raw score can then be divided by 29 to get the scaled score.

One published version of the ADES included this comment:

Initial validation research reported a mean score of 4.8 for dissociative adolescents (S.D. 1.1). Armstrong et al. (1997) concluded that a score of 3.7 would be concerning and suggestive of significant dissociation. A Turkish sample found a mean score of 6.2 among dissociative adolescents (S.D. 1.98), a mean score of 3.94 among adolescents with PTSD (S.D. 1.54), and the non-clinical group, mood disorders group, and anxiety disorders groups had mean scores hovering around 2.4 (Zoruglu et al., 2002).

One item on the ADES is I can do something really well one time and then I can’t do it at all another time. This is exactly the observed problem that prompted evaluation of my child. My child scored this item 0. Even if the score were 10, raising the scaled score to 1.1, that score still would be far below the concerning value.

Here it is important to underscore the fact that the ADES is a screening tool. Someone can score the items truthfully (as far as they are aware) and get a very low score, yet still have DID. I think that would have been me as an adolescent. I know that I have chronic problems with dissociative amnesia and, although there is no question that I have DID, even when I was most florid in my 40's my score on the ADES would have been at most 4.4.

So is my child in the clear? Yes, probably, but not because of the ADES score. It was far more reassuring that my child exhibited no apparent dissociation in response to any of the items. Some of the items visibly disturb my system even when I know they are coming. I know that I and the interviewer both have very sensitive DID-dar, and my child did not make a blip on the DID-dar for either of us.

Una+ wrote: It was far more reassuring that my child exhibited no apparent dissociation in response to any of the items.

That's really good.

I'm glad to hear that DID has been ruled out for your child. Hopefully they can work out the cause of whatever the problem is promptly and manage to help your child address it as soon as possible.

Having become aware of my own dissociative symptoms and learned so much about dissociation, now I see it all around me. Including in my husband. In the past couple of years there have been several disturbing incidents where he does something quite strange without knowing he is doing it or fails to even perceive that something is happening.

So, once again I am working the phones to locate resources for someone else. And once again I am finding local resources I'd had no idea existed, that I might use myself.

Reading the thread and thinking of you ( all ) Una et all.

Una+ wrote:Having become aware of my own dissociative symptoms and learned so much about dissociation, now I see it all around me. Including in my husband. In the past couple of years there have been several disturbing incidents where he does something quite strange without knowing he is doing it or fails to even perceive that something is happening[*].

So, once again I am working the phones to locate resources for someone else. And once again I am finding local resources I'd had no idea existed, that I might use myself.

[*]Italics not in original

What you mention is quite interesting Una+. Makes me wonder about me/us who consider ourselves non dissociative.

I've been thinking about something, and thought that maybe you could answer it, if you feel like it.

I'm wondering about the feeling, regarding someone, after you integrate. How do you, Una+, feel about the man Alter 5 fell in love with? And how do you, Una+, feel about your husband?

Did the feelings for both of them change after integrating?


Sea

Una+ wrote:Having become aware of my own dissociative symptoms and learned so much about dissociation, now I see it all around me. Including in my husband. In the past couple of years there have been several disturbing incidents where he does something quite strange without knowing he is doing it or fails to even perceive that something is happening.

Hi, Una, I've noticed dissociation in others too, more and more as time goes by. Once you know what it is, from personal experience, from watching others known to be dissociative, and from reading, it's so much easier to spot.

Dissociation can be a momentary thing, where someone disconnects from something and they bounce to something else. Or they can dissociate and be left in a vacant state, suddenly "lost in thought." Or of course they can switch states entirely.

I've noticed one or the other of these when I've told a people about the fact that I was abused. I witness some of them go into their head momentarily and want to escape the topic. The two friends I told who did not have trauma stayed fully present, I didn't feel them going away. One of them was constantly undervalued, for example, left to do all the housework when she was quite young, but she doesn't describe that as traumatic. Painful, causing significant self-limitation, but not sudden or overwhelming.

I'm wondering if part of this isn't that you may be remaining more present too, more willing to stay in the moment, ponder it, not avoid it. As you become more proactive and skilled at noticing dissociation in yourself, it stands to reason you can identify dissociation or something like it happening in others. In many ways it's a prison people can't free themselves from without knowledge or, usually, help from others. So I find myself wanting to do something, even though I have other parts who don't want me to get involved, who want me to focus on us first.

I've identified more serious dissociation, up to and including switching, but I've realized that mostly in hindsight from past interactions.

The idea that two people who dissociate to some extent are drawn to one another seems the most natural thing in the world to me. Then again, both my parents had DID, I believe, based on radically different but consistent states I knew them as.

Seangel wrote:I'm wondering about the feeling, regarding someone, after you integrate. How do you, Una+, feel about the man Alter 5 fell in love with? And how do you, Una+, feel about your husband?

The question: After integrating with Alter 5, how have my feelings changed for the two men in my life, my husband and Alter 5’s other man?

The answer: That is a really good question and the short answer is that it is complicated. So this post has taken me hours to write and rewrite, after many more hours of reflection. I think I need to frame my answer with a review of the other integrations. First, I am thankful that Alter 5’s integration was not my first. Hers was my third. Experiencing the others prepared me. Sometimes I think the integrations may be happening in order of increasing challenge. (Creepy!)

Each integration (fusion plus all that precedes and follows) has been an emotionally painful and psychologically difficult experience in its own unique way. That is the nature of growth and change. Integration requires major adjustments. Most of these adjustments come after the fusion event and are not entirely predictable, at least not to me. Each integration is different because each alter comes with his or her own history, values, strengths and weaknesses, issues, and relationship to me.

The first alter to undergo fusion, Alter 3 in early 2011, didn’t know either man! The other man was of no concern to her, but finding herself suddenly a middle aged mom married to a complete stranger freaked her out. The middle aged part was the worst. (Totally.) (Hey, it could have been even worse!) (True.) Fortunately she decided she liked my husband well enough, and she was so incredibly generous and compassionate and laid back about the whole situation. Words fail me. The fusion itself was accidental and I hadn’t even heard of fusion yet, so it was a shocking surprise. I had been advised by my then-therapist not to research DID, to just focus on what was going on inside. Well, I don’t like surprises like that (who does?!), so that’s when I got serious about reading up on DID.

The second fusion, with Alter 1 in late 2011, had the most impact on my relationship with my husband. Alter 1 brought me a whole new level of intuition and empathic reading of others. I was sharp before but now, wow, it’s like I have an all new state of the art sensor array. Before fusion I experienced most of my empathic awareness of others in my forehead. It was all coming to me indirectly through Alter 1. After fusion I experienced it directly, in my body. Now sensations in my body mirror sensations in other bodies. Learning to use and feel comfortable with the new sensory equipment has taken time. I have needed to learn how to dial down the sensitivity as I do not want to take in everyone else’s physical and emotional pain. Also, it was Alter 1, not Alter 5, who loves (cares about) Alter 5’s other man. Those were two really big changes. This fusion greatly impacted my relationship with my husband because now I am acutely aware that while he might say he has no particular feelings about certain things, I can see and feel emotions in his body. He doesn’t lie; he actually is not aware of many feelings that he does have.

After the third fusion, with Alter 5 in 2013, for a long while the emotional pain was overwhelming. At first I was both grieving my “loss” of her and at the same time flooded with her longing for her other man. Whereas before fusion the flooding happened only when she broke through (e.g., most nights), now the longing was constant. And now she became painfully aware that her longing was a feeling based in her own needs, nothing more. The feeling had almost nothing to do with the man. She could now fully perceive exactly what I had already surmised: she had no history of thoughts or opinions about him other than that he was gorgeous and could go somewhere outside the void around her and she wanted to go there too. She had no preconceived notions or projections, no dreams, no information about him. She had no relationship with him. Apart from that one first handshake, they had no contact. He doesn’t even know she ever existed, and the only feeling she had for him was longing. So there was a long period of mourning and coming to terms with the harsh reality of her existence as an alter. Integration with Alter 5 had next to no impact on my marriage, however.

I know this lack of impact surprises a lot of people. But then hardly anyone can understand how a husband can stand to hear his wife say “I love [other man]” and “I want him” and so on. The reason why is polyamory. Our marriage is not emotionally exclusive. It never has been. This is by our mutual agreement. Everything I have done since meeting the other man 5 years ago up to now has confirmed my integrity, honesty, and fidelity. I have behaved exactly as I said I would those many years ago when my husband and I began courting and we talked about what would happen if/when I fall in love with anyone else. I promised I would never leave him for another person but I also would not cut off the other person; I would have my cake and eat it too. That suited him perfectly.

The only irregularity in the whole other man love story was that it wasn’t me who was having these feelings for another man. It clearly wasn’t me. We both knew it; we could see, hear, feel that it was not me. We asked ourselves how was this being “not me” even possible? The diagnosis of DID explained how: there was no more irregularity, just an ordinary case of DID. Whew! Remember, Alter 5 was created just 5 years ago when I first met the other man. So, completing her integration has more or less restored me to my “normal” self.

I continue to see Alter 5's other man every few months. Consistently now I experience a peculiar multiplicity of my perception of him and feelings about him. He is simultaneously unattractive and gorgeous, savvy and clueless, and I feel dislike, irritation, indifference, concern, admiration, joy and adoration. And of course he still appears to be a florid multiple, switching frequently.

It is such a strange experience to be in a group meeting with him and see him switch again and again and no one else seems to notice. But I have "outed" both of us to many of our colleagues so they do know (insofar as they believe me about either of us). And I have told him directly about both of us so he knows this about himself, if dissociative amnesia and denial aren't playing havoc, and yet he continues to show up. That takes courage, and I have deep respect for him on that point.

I think the most difficult, life-changing integration for me is likely to be with Alter 2, some day in the future. Alter 2 and I are very different. He has always been around, always been very active, but he has never been directly in a relationship with anyone. He has always been covert and consequently he is desperately lonely. He mostly is disgusted with Alter 5’s other man, but also lusts after him; I am not sure how he feels about my (our) husband.

And then there is Alter 4, the mysterious girl behind the wall. Who knows what will happen there? I am sure she does not have positive feelings for the other man, but otherwise I know very little about her.

This too shall pass.

Hi Una+,

Thanks for sharing this, and for framing your answers because Alter 5's integration experience alone wouldn't have explained what I was looking for in the answer. As I read it I was marveled at so many beautiful things: the many dimensions of the selves, the love among two people, the values of honesty, coherence, and many others. I also felt pain inside, but I know it's from my personal experiences. So, Thanks again.

Una+ wrote:First, I am thankful that Alter 5’s integration was not my first. Hers was my third. Experiencing the others prepared me. Sometimes I think the integrations may be happening in order of increasing challenge. (Creepy!)

It also means you're healing, and healing, and each time more prepared.

Una+ wrote:The first alter to undergo fusion, Alter 3 in early 2011, didn’t know either man! The other man was of no concern to her, but finding herself suddenly a middle aged mom married to a complete stranger freaked her out. The middle aged part was the worst. (Totally.) (Hey, it could have been even worse!) (True.)

(hahaha this internal out loud conversation is awesome)

Una+ wrote:Fortunately she decided she liked my husband well enough, and she was so incredibly generous and compassionate and laid back about the whole situation. Words fail me. The fusion itself was accidental and I hadn’t even heard of fusion yet, so it was a shocking surprise. I had been advised by my then-therapist not to research DID, to just focus on what was going on inside. Well, I don’t like surprises like that (who does?!), so that’s when I got serious about reading up on DID.

<3<3<3 To her.

Una+ wrote:The second fusion, with Alter 1 in late 2011, had the most impact on my relationship with my husband. Alter 1 brought me a whole new level of intuition and empathic reading of others. I was sharp before but now, wow, it’s like I have an all new state of the art sensor array. Before fusion I experienced most of my empathic awareness of others in my forehead. It was all coming to me indirectly through Alter 1. After fusion I experienced it directly, in my body. Now sensations in my body mirror sensations in other bodies. Learning to use and feel comfortable with the new sensory equipment has taken time. I have needed to learn how to dial down the sensitivity as I do not want to take in everyone else’s physical and emotional pain. Also, it was Alter 1, not Alter 5, who loves (cares about) Alter 5’s other man. Those were two really big changes. This fusion greatly impacted my relationship with my husband because now I am acutely aware that while he might say he has no particular feelings about certain things, I can see and feel emotions in his body. He doesn’t lie; he actually is not aware of many feelings that he does have.

This is amazing. I got so many things from this. I cannot put them into words.

Una+ wrote:After the third fusion, with Alter 5 in 2013, for a long while the emotional pain was overwhelming. At first I was both grieving my “loss” of her and at the same time flooded with her longing for her other man. Whereas before fusion the flooding happened only when she broke through (e.g., most nights), now the longing was constant. And now she became painfully aware that her longing was a feeling based in her own needs, nothing more. The feeling had almost nothing to do with the man. She could now fully perceive exactly what I had already surmised: she had no history of thoughts or opinions about him other than that he was gorgeous and could go somewhere outside the void around her and she wanted to go there too. She had no preconceived notions or projections, no dreams, no information about him. She had no relationship with him. Apart from that one first handshake, they had no contact. He doesn’t even know she ever existed, and the only feeling she had for him was longing. So there was a long period of mourning and coming to terms with the harsh reality of her existence as an alter. Integration with Alter 5 had next to no impact on my marriage, however.

Thanks again.

Una+ wrote:I know this lack of impact surprises a lot of people. But then hardly anyone can understand how a husband can stand to hear his wife say “I love [other man]” and “I want him” and so on. The reason why is polyamory. Our marriage is not emotionally exclusive. It never has been. This is by our mutual agreement. Everything I have done since meeting the other man 5 years ago up to now has confirmed my integrity, honesty, and fidelity. I have behaved exactly as I said I would those many years ago when my husband and I began courting and we talked about what would happen if/when I fall in love with anyone else. I promised I would never leave him for another person but I also would not cut off the other person; I would have my cake and eat it too. That suited him perfectly.

It was after reading this paragraph that I experienced pain inside, but also safety, amazement, and an understanding of ... co-existence of values. Thanks again.

Una+ wrote:The only irregularity in the whole other man love story was that it wasn’t me who was having these feelings for another man. It clearly wasn’t me. We both knew it; we could see, hear, feel that it was not me. We asked ourselves how was this being “not me” even possible? The diagnosis of DID explained how: there was no more irregularity, just an ordinary case of DID. Whew! Remember, Alter 5 was created just 5 years ago when I first met the other man. So, completing her integration has more or less restored me to my “normal” self.

I'm very happy for you Una, for you all Una+.

Una+ wrote:I continue to see Alter 5's other man every few months. Consistently now I experience a peculiar multiplicity of my perception of him and feelings about him. He is simultaneously unattractive and gorgeous, savvy and clueless, and I feel dislike, irritation, indifference, concern, admiration, joy and adoration. And of course he still appears to be a florid multiple, switching frequently.

This multiplicity of your perception of him, do you think, is because of his multiplicity or because of your own multiplicity integrated?

Una+ wrote:I think the most difficult, life-changing integration for me is likely to be with Alter 2, some day in the future. Alter 2 and I are very different. He has always been around, always been very active, but he has never been directly in a relationship with anyone. He has always been covert and consequently he is desperately lonely. He mostly is disgusted with Alter 5’s other man, but also lusts after him; I am not sure how he feels about my (our) husband.

Humm... Interesting. Maybe, with integration, he won't feel so lonely, and he may get to enjoy some of his lusting desires. I wish the best for you and him, and Alter 4.

Una+ wrote:This too shall pass.

By Una+

Thank you Una. Your sharing is of incredible learnings for me.

Sea