Healthy empathy or repetition of original trauma

When "living life the way you were created" becomes repeating trauma, and when it's just a normal way to react to things around, because of the way you are?

Like most of you probably know, Sami is our defender, among other things he does in the system, that's a word I use about him. It's not the job he was "born to do", what he was growing up doing, it's what he has grown into doing later, what he chose to become, when we started to have awareness about each other few years ago. That's when he changed his loyalty being with us. System before outsiders.

Originally he has defended our mom against dad, prevented their fights from growing too big when it could be prevented. He did it when dad attacked, and he did it when mom came to share us all about her problems with dad and how bad she felt. Sami grew to tell what is twisted views of dad's and what's the reality, what is manipulation techniques and how not to fall to believe in them. He spent so many years trying to teach mom to how to defend herself and how to tell the difference by herself. But there were never any improvement, mom didn't want that, she wanted him doing that for her, him there supporting her.

Problem was, mom did not want to learn how to be an adult by herself. She didn't tell her problems to get them solved, they were not hard to solve: get a divorce and let's move away from here. No, she "loved him" and basically she just wanted to use us to get things out of her system, to then go back living like nothing happened. Realizing that took many years and growing to understand that, on emotional level too, took even more years, and yet few more to see how she never cared a bit how any of us felt. We were never comforted, we were there to comfort and protect her and it never came to her mind Sami was a child and would've earned to have a childhood.

Sami had been able to tell the manipulation and abuse dad did to mom since he was really small, but he did not see how he was used and manipulated himself by mom. She wasn't just an innocent victim, she abused him. Now we have seen that, and he said buh-byes to her, soon to be 2 years ago. And he uses things he knows to our advantage now.

It doesn't change the way he is. He can not listen to things he feels are unfair, and do nothing.

Few days ago we took a train to city next to where we live in. It was almost empty, in the area we were sitting in, there was just us and two other people. A girl or young woman (didn't see her so didn't know) and this middle aged or soon to be middle aged man talking to the girl. They clearly didn't know each other, the guy had just went there to sit with the girl and started talking to her.

We sat there for about 3 minutes, the time it takes for train to go from where we came from to the next station. The guy was trying to convince the girl to go and travel with him somewhere abroad. Don't know where, it wasn't mentioned in the time we listened to them. He promised it will be free living in there, free food, free everything, just come and travel. You can take your boyfriend with you. Talk talk talk and even more sh*t talk. Girl didn't say anything for a long time.

We pictured her to looking at her phone or looking out of window like she could escape from there, pretending he's not there. Eventually she said "No." Her voice was so small and shaky it could've belonged to a ten year old. We thought she probably isn't that young, because the guy was talking about her having a possible boyfriend to convince how safe it is to go and travel with him to where-ever, but never the less, it was a voice of someone's who will never have authority enough to make the guy leave her alone. I can't know if she was really scared or just avoiding him, and I can't know her background, but I do know Sami got more and more pissed off.

Sami listened that sh*t talk for that 3 minutes and when the train moved again, he just couldn't anymore. So we walked to them and he looks the guy in the eyes and and says "You were told no already." He has the authority in him and the tone in his voice, and he will be heard when he means business. Guy sees his eyes, that he's not kidding, and avoids eye contact. Sami looks at the girl, asks (with soft tone) her to come with him and girl comes, guy tries to say something but realizes his opportunity is gone now and no one will be interested in his explanations, and we walk away. Girl whispers "thank you" and goes sitting by herself further away from the guy and we go sit near to her, between the guy and girl. And I though how it's sometimes a blessing Sami has to use my body, because he would've been scary to her otherwise too. Just another guy, this time with more authority and that may not feel as safe as he really is, has no intentions or interests of his own in her.

Maybe the guy was all talk and no danger, maybe he's someone who delivers pretty girls abroad. We can't know, neither can we know how easily fooled would that girl have been if there was an actual danger. In the end, that was just 4-5 minutes from our life, just an example. Well bit longer than that, they left the train where we did and Sami made sure the guy doesn't follow her and after that we started minding other business and forgot them. Anyway, she was happy about being helped out of the situation she didn't wanna be in, and it was not a big deal for us. Because it's not like this would be only one of it's kind. Sami just can't, he just can not listen to people that he finds are possibly abusive, and do nothing about it. It's what he does, he defends people who can not defend themselves, because that's what he is: a defender.

So we're back with the original question. When it's too much, and starts to be negative to his or our wellbeing and is more of repeating old patterns all over again, and when it's jut normal empathy, because that's the way he is, and there's nothing wrong in rescuing random girls from random men in trains?

Flor

It makes sense to be extra sensitive (empathetic) to things you are familiar with.

You have already identified that Sami is a protector. It kind of sounds like it is paired with a bodily state of hyperarousal and hypervigilance?

In our system, one of the ventures of healing we focus on is trying to broaden a parts' possible bodily states. https://www.dis-sos.com/the-polyvagal-ladder/ We tend to use this system to classify the states in which parts feel at home, and made some extra categories of mixed states. Some parts span out more states, some less.

I think that if a part can stay in ventral vagus nerve activation and have empathy, then it's probably empathy. And if it triggers them into trauma responses, then it's too much.

It sounds like healthy empathy to me.

His take on the situation was accurate (the girl felt unsafe with the other guy, and was thankful for Sami's intervention). Nothing was taken too far--Sami wasn't violent or overtly threatening to the man. He didn't overextend himself to the girl (offer to see her home, etc). Boundaries were respected.

It's a kind of thing that could be a somewhat healing experience. An experience of being someone who has the power to step in and prevent emotional manipulation and possible danger to another person.

***My way of thinking is to write, which is why there's a lot of OT in the response. I made them easy to find by putting stars in front of them. If you're not fan of long messages, don't read the starry texts. They're not trigger warnings, they're "you may get bored" warnings.***

You have already identified that Sami is a protector. It kind of sounds like it is paired with a bodily state of hyperarousal and hypervigilance?

Yeah, he is in fight/fligth -state or really close to it most of the time, pretty much always at some level when there's people around (which is why we get exhausted around people). There's a rush of stress hormones I can feel when we are co-con, in situations like in the example, that's what makes it so hard for him to not react. Sitting still doesn't feel right or natural.

By reacting he can create safety, like in the example I told about, make the man shut up and leave his planned prey alone. And it's not hard, it took few steps walking and two sentences said aloud, and then there's peace and safety, and stress level settles being lower again. Then he can sit again, be on alert, but sit.

NOT reacting would make him be stressed all the time and if he would stop himself from doing a thing like that for some reason, it would bother him afterwards too. Someone needed help and couldn't help themself, while it would've been so easy to him. He does believe people have obligation to help others if there's trouble and they can help. Looking the other way would create the same stress, but for way longer time than it does if he reacts to it.

But is that the problem, that he kind of feels obligated? That it isn't just free choice and the reaction in him makes it easier to take care of the responsibility rather than avoiding it. Helping out feels ethically right, plus it lessens the stress.

***(OT: That explains the thought and feeling about outside friends or relationships being so exhausting when I'm co-con with him, there's a really big feeling of being obligated to take care of them, although we have never been abused that way by any friend we have had earlier in life. He doesn't want outside people in his life permanently, because it feels exhausting having that huge responsibility - although in reality no one has asked him to do anything, it's a feeling based on how it used to be in past with my (our) parents. And it's kind of weird, because he wouldn't agree to have responsibility of anyone the way he is scared of, he is very aware you can get used by people in relationships, and he does look if there's any signs. But being aware and able to avoid that from happening doesn't make the feeling disappear, the feeling of responsibility to carry friends throughout their life, if you agree to have someone, is strong, really strong. It's just how he feels relationships are, straight out responsibility of the other persons life. He doesn't want that, so he doesn't wanna get close with people. His attachment style is super avoidant anyway.)***

In our system, one of the ventures of healing we focus on is trying to broaden a parts' possible bodily states. https://www.dis-sos.com/the-polyvagal-ladder/ We tend to use this system to classify the states in which parts feel at home, and made some extra categories of mixed states. Some parts span out more states, some less.

Thanks, the link was interesting. If you agree to share your extra categories, I'm interested in them too. If they feel personal and you don't wanna share them publicly, PM is fine, but you can of course decline too.

I learned new things, it was kind of like reading descriptions of some of our parts, they can be so clearly drawn to certain state. I had thought Sami doesn't really have facial expressions, other than in very special situations of safety and love, because no one has ever really reacted his expressions that were not wanted, like being sad or happy. He mostly looks angry, and I haven't known before it's linked to living in the fight or flight long term.

I think that if a part can stay in ventral vagus nerve activation and have empathy, then it's probably empathy. And if it triggers them into trauma responses, then it's too much.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, although I don't doubt his feelings of empathy wouldn't be "real" even tho he reacts with fight/flight related response. Original trauma was traumatic because of many things, but one of them being the genuine feeling of empathy (or sympathy maybe) towards my mom. But I understand what you meant anyway, that it's not good for him, if he reacts because of response, that is in him because of the original trauma.

Sami is relaxed pretty rarely and mostly just in the presence of his loved one, who ever that is at any given time. Otherwise it's fight or flight, but not necessarily deep in there. But he doesn't wanna be touched, doesn't really talk other than very laconic ways, unless he gets mad and then he speaks a lot, very suddenly and very fast, it's like a word-attack. Didn't know that's typical for that state too, fast speech and/or lack of communication with words, but that's why reading the descriptions was like reading descriptions of parts of our system. And for us too some have more than one, Reading about the safe state is like Lucas, but he sometimes gets triggered and wants to flight and spins really fast into dissociating and deep in the dissociation, loosing muscle tension and all interest of what happens outside. And he doesn't wanna come out of there once he drops in, probably because it puts him to fight and flight and he really isn't "home" in there and drops back down to where nothing matters. But most of time, he's really healthy and has best social skills and understanding out of all of us.

But clearly not all traits in parts are really their personality, there's things that could change, if they'd have right kind of help. Sami could have clear facial expressions etc. Feels weird to think about that.

***Ranting about OT stuff: Reading all that made me also angry. Not to you, to our old T. I mean, it is pretty basic level knowledge to know things like that, something all Ts should know. At least all trauma-Ts, aren't these the exact things they study while in training? Realizing how our ex T reacted to our parts having clear - like super clear - signs of dropping to - or living in - "the lower level of the ladders", it's like she never saw or understood that or what it meant, and certainly didn't react to it any helpful way. She reacted by accusing them being hard to work with. I don't doubt it wouldn't be hard to work with someone who freezes and dissociates, doesn't really talk and is scared of you because you have hurt him before and never said sorry, but it's not like you're his victim and he's just being difficult for fun. And she said that like she's expecting him to chance. If he could chance just like that to being healthier, we wouldn't need the f*n therapy. We pay you to deal with parts that are hard to work with because they're traumatized, that's the point why we are there.

Whole T-drama is filling my mind again and making me.. well at this point just angry. That can be shared feeling from Sami tho, he's close because I was talking about him and there's no questions that he wouldn't be, and wouldn't have been this whole time, angry at her.***

Flor (with some influence from Sami)

Glad that it was interesting! Parts are thought to reflect/be associated with "action systems", so it makes sense that you recognized quite a bit in the descriptions of the states.

So... Stephen Porges, the guy who came up with the polyvagal theory, also thought of "mixed states", e.g. for play (ventral vagal and hyperarousal) or for relaxed intimacy (ventral vagal and dorsal vagal). However, I thought that was maybe a bit too complex to add in my own overview. So what I did was that I made a table with: "dorsal vagal - x - hyperarousal - y - ventral vagal" in the top row. In the left column I wrote out the names of parts. Then for each part I highlighted the states they span (and their "home" state of being).
The reason I added the x and y categories is that I feel like many parts *can* be social, but not really in a full-on ventral vagal way, and many parts shut down, but not in a fully-shut-down way. So it added a bit if nuance.
In the highlighted parts I tried to add what bodily signals are common for that part, or what feelings are common (for every state).
The interesting thing is that the table shows how parts add to each other, how each of us may have a bit of a restricted experience, but how together we have many different experiences. That is very cool to me.

Sadly, very few Ts are aware of the polyvagal theory. It is now gaining a bit of popularity, also because of the books of Deb Dana. If you can get your hands on one of her books, i'd recommend them. She came up with the ladder concept and explains many exercises you can use to "climb up the ladder".

Take care. And yes, I didn't mean that Sami's empathy would not be real, just that it may be a trauma repetition/hurtful to him.