Adults Who Can't or Won't Front?

Hey MDs,

Sorry we coudln't reply to this yesterday, V1 had stuff she wanted to say but didn't have the energy.

So for us, we kinda view "Can't front" and "Won't front" as the same thing. And maybe lump "Shouldn't front" in there too. But like, change 'front' to 'do adult $#%^' cos theres some in our system who can front, but don't or won't do adult $#%^.

We kinda like what Asti said, like if you have adult parts who you know are able to front and can do the adulting $#%^, but they flat out refuse, then there's gotta be reasons for it. So its gotta be something to like, work on and explore? Maybe with your T, maybe just amongst yourselves. But I think there's gotta me more than, they just don't feel like it, or they're feeling lazy or whatever.

Like, as much as we all talk about how we hate our life and $#%^, we're not just letting it fall apart. V1's 'awol' again today and I'm here doing work and stuff cos someone's gotta do it. Maybe I don't do as good a job as others, cos I'm not as good at it (or honestly I don't ######6 care that much), but I still do what I can?

We also agree with Gang, about maybe not being so strict about defining things just by age? Like again, V2 and me are both teens, but we can do this stuff, so we do. And I kinda think we gotta be this way, cos our system has so few grownups and so many younger parts. Tho I realize maybe its also repeating some old stuff, like our dad put us to work around age 14 so we're used to the idea of teens having jobs and responsibilities. But again, we got so few capapble grownups that if we didn't let teens work, our life would be ###$.

Anyways, I know there's lotsa good stuff in this thread. I hope you find some helpful stuff and maybe your system can kinda reevaluate and find new ways of working together, or figure out what's gone wrong with what you're doing now so you can fix it.

Viola & V1

MakersDozn wrote:Do you have any adults in your system (or your SO's system, if you're an SO) who can't or won't front?

What about them makes them unable or unwilling?

We do. Some are unable (sort of) and some others are unwilling. Benedict is the one that has difficulties coming out, but just because he very seldom fronts. He doesn't even have the will to front, because his place is to help inside. Benedict is the parent figure and the caretaker for all of the littles (apart from Xavier and Mi), so he spends all his time soothing and controlling the littles. To symbolize this, they all live in a big house together where they get to interact and play with each other.
Leo and Jason are the ones that are mostly unwilling to front/don't find it useful to do. They are both gatekeepers and the managers of our two systems. I know more about Jason though, because I am not part of JR's system like Leo is. Jason is the peacemaker and the doer, he has to manage memories, emotions and switches. That's a lot of work and he suffers from anxiety sometimes even because of that. Me and him are the ones that allow switches to happen, but we're not always aware of each other's intentions and sometimes we clash because of that. That's besides the point but anyways, both he and Leo think that their place is on the inside, just because taking on a role on the outside would be too difficult for them. It would be too much work.
On the other hand, I personally think that Jason is also phobic of the outside world because he's too anxious and unable to deal with emotions sometimes, so...

MakersDozn wrote:How do you reconcile your system's situation with the intrinsic implications of adulthood--that adulthood means "adulting?"

I personally am not an adult. I am surrounded by adults (Nico, Jason, JR, Nathan) that help me deal with daily life, but I would not be able to deal with it alone, I think. I think that keeping a balance between the roles is very important. As an example, I don't like working. It gives stresses me too much and frustrates me since I am a perfectionist and get overwhelmed by emotion very easily (even because of our ASD). So Nico (or Nathan) have to take control at work. When studying, on the other hand, I am good at keeping the schedule in order etc, but some subjects (like maths) are too much for me, so Xavier takes control to deal with it. JR likes to take control when it comes to more scientific and medical stuff, so he helps with that when he's available. And so on.
We always try to keep it balanced. It takes energy and committment to the cause, but it works most of the time. If one of us is too stressed, they make the others know, and we do something about it. We let Nico rest when he's out too much, and we force someone else out when needed even when they're feeling too low to come out by themselves.

MakersDozn wrote:And lastly, how do you know if these adults are simply unwilling rather than unable? If this is true, how do you deal with the unwillingness and the underlying issues associated with it?

They usually communicate it to whoever is fronting. If, let's say, Jason is switching or is very close, you can tell if he wants to switch or not. There's usually a strange back and forth feeling, and tiredness. If they're unable and need help, for us there is a way to know since we feel like we need to ground ourselves and retreat. We don't hear voices, but we are very big on feeling. Sensations are usually the teller for us. Sometimes we just don't know what we should do or what is happening, and that's okay. We're not that great at communicating either, so it's normal.

Really hope this is clear and helps!

Mi

LKinney wrote:Also a male will likely have a very different view than a female about the amount of undesired work that must be done as women take on a larger share of domestic work, especially the mental and emotional loads. It's not biological, it's how we raise children based on gender.

To me putting a label "male opinion" that way on something is not acceptable. Especially not when it's pointing out a single person you know nothing about, other than that they feel different from you and your system member. You have no way of telling why they feel different.

We have parts in our system who like doing chores. Not because they're the funnest fun they know, but because they feel rewarded after it's done. Way more than I do. That's the reason why they have all that energy to use, spending it feels good. And after that they wanna do the next thing, to get the same reward from that. So they get things done and are happy about it, although they like some other things even better. Life doesn't feel like dealing with $#%^ to them. They can also enjoy pain, not because they like pain, but because right kind of pain tells you, you do what you do right for it to have an effect when you work out.

They were either raised exactly same than I was, if you think we shared a life. But because they have their own background you can think how they were raised by their parents. They were raised taking responsibilities way more than I was, if you talk about things like chores. They're the oldest of 11 children, and able to take care of that. They were raised the way in few years they'd have big family of their own too, and could manage it. I was responsible about adults emotions. What's their role in our system, is to actually be the one who took it for me, while I avoided. That's why they're there, because of all I avoided.

If you're depressed, you don't get those rewards, but do things for nothing, and it's one and same to you if they're done or not. But if they're not, there's gonna be deeper troubles and more depression. You don't feel better after you showered, you don't feel better when your home is clean and nice, because you've lost the ability to feel good.

Then there's all kind of people between these, and people also go up and down on that spectrum based on many things. If you feel 95% of your life is things you don't get rewarded from, that's sad. I wouldn't blame on gender. There's no study that shows males are more likely to have that feeling of reward after they do a thing that needs to be done. Males are also capable of surviving without females helping them. If those middle school kids would have their chance to play x-box without limits, they wouldn't be happy either. It's not that simple.

Parts are like people. Some are capable of doing more, and everyone doing same amount is not the even way to share. Finding out what would be, is not easy. But that's why we're here thinking about it.

Floralie

Floralie wrote:

LKinney wrote:Also a male will likely have a very different view than a female about the amount of undesired work that must be done as women take on a larger share of domestic work, especially the mental and emotional loads. It's not biological, it's how we raise children based on gender.

To me putting a label "male opinion" that way on something is not acceptable. Especially not when it's pointing out a single person you know nothing about, other than that they feel different from you and your system member. You have no way of telling why they feel different.

Floralie

We're not upset by what Xena said, Floralie, but we respect the fact that it bothered you. Just to be clear on this.

Thank you, everyone, for the additional input. It may take us a couple of days before we're able to respond in detail.

Mary and others

MakersDozn wrote:We're not upset by what Xena said, Floralie, but we respect the fact that it bothered you. Just to be clear on this.

Mary and others

No, it's our trigger. In our system males do it all, they hold traumas and they do most work. Lucas and Jules' whole system and Leon all have been punished because they're males. Sami is the one with trauma that doesn't have that, rest of them do, and there's more than 20 parts in Jules' system. It's lot of guilt about your gender to feel, over something you can't choose. So when we see boys pointed out we get triggered, and I'm the one to defend them, because I'm not male. Sami can't do that, he'd be seen as one more bad guy, if he'd comment on it. But maybe that's why he's gay. That's how he can show there's nothing wrong in being male to the ones that have been and are hurt.

Floralie wrote:

LKinney wrote:Also a male will likely have a very different view than a female about the amount of undesired work that must be done as women take on a larger share of domestic work, especially the mental and emotional loads. It's not biological, it's how we raise children based on gender.

To me putting a label "male opinion" that way on something is not acceptable. Especially not when it's pointing out a single person you know nothing about, other than that they feel different from you and your system member. You have no way of telling why they feel different.

Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant people without DID, not a male in a person with DID's system. Thank you for pointing out my poor wording.

We were addressing Gang's SO's comments.

And that last post from us was Xena, Laura, and Dax, so a little all over, sorry.

Dax has been approaching this entire issue from the concept of the "mental load" (google it - it's a feminist theory) as we were seeing Charity's comments as being more along these lines than any other. In particular we just finished reading "Fed Up: Emotional Labor, Women, and the Way Forward" by Gemma Hartley and much of what we're talking about is addressing the ides of the mental/emotional load using author's research.

We apologize that that was not clear. Thank you for noting that for us.

LKinney wrote:We were addressing Gang's SO's comments.
We apologize that that was not clear. Thank you for noting that for us.

No, we understood that, and that's why it was not acceptable to us. You can talk about an issue like that in large population, never pointing out one person you do not know.

That particular male said that when they do stuff they have to do, but don't like, they don't feel miserable while doing it. To me that sounds way more like a difference I mentioned, difference between healthier and more with problems, than them telling they don't have to do things they don't want, like they would if they'd be female. It also triggers us to see someone spreading gender guilt.

If you look at our signature, you see we're mostly male, and that's our point of view. What we have found out is that there's severe problems in having any kind of safety net for sexually abused boys. At some point Jules started thinking he may not be that bad he thinks, that he may instead be a victim. And he reached out to have help, having hope he'd find someone like him, who'd think he's a victim too. Well he didn't. He found conversations where women told how gross he is because of his gender, born dirty and sexually guilty. He was abused by males too and he sees that all. It's different to see that, when it's also all you are and there's no way to escape it. That's why he's severely self destructive. That makes it impossible for him to grow up or even try to believe in being victim ever after that. It's way better to be with guilt than believe into something good and be attacked instead. Hope is the cruelest thing there is. That's our most important lesson about gender differences, and from there we read things told about genders. It will be heard mostly by Jules and Leon who is 4 years old.

Being part of DID system doesn't make males in our system any less male. Everything you say about males in general, you say about them, especially when you are ready to point out single people just like that. And my boys' genders will not be robbed away from them. They're not "females in reality", because of my body. I know you tried to say it good way, but it doesn't work like that to us. Although Jules knows he is guilty of everything bad ever happening in this planet because of his gender, that's still his gender identity, and his self destructiveness will just turn to be more outside, against outside body if they're linked together like this body would be his. He does not hurt me, he only hurts himself, and when he's let to have his own body and no other bodies, he does not hurt this one. To Sami you can say anything, he may not respect it much, but he will not be crushed by it, because his own sense of self is too strong to be destroyed by comments from an outsider. Other than him, gender is delicate issue, that's why genders are something we inform people in our signature.

MD's, we're sorry about the OT and will give this thread back to you. We just wanted to explain why we do and will react to gender things, to someone who did not know or understand the reasons behind. I won't write anything further OT in this thread.

Team LKinney, I normally appreciate your thoughtful posts but I must say I also find the anti-male sexism extremely offensive and false. There is no justification for your claim that females are socialized to work harder than males, or that gender is not biological. It's false ideology. Just because anti-male sexism is trendy especially in socialite circles, doesn't make it right. Men and boys are harmed by anti-male sexism. There are males on this forum for whom sexism contributed to their traumatization. And that you are a teacher, that has me concerned for your students' safety. Please think more carefully.

Floralie already addressed this very well, thank you. Also answered some questions I've had about this. I haven't read all of it yet since I don't have time right now but I will later.

Folks, pointing out the differences in male and female experiences in a patriarchal society is not sexist. It is a FACT that we raise boys and girls differently in patriarchal societies (it's also a fact we do binary gender in the first place at the expense of those that do not fit into this fabricated binary - gender is a social construct). Gender is a social construct. Do not mix biological sex with socially constructed gender. If you don't understand the difference, you have some research to do, because I am not going to hijack MD's thread with something so easy to google. Read a scholarly source though, don't just look up some random, uninformed dolt on youtube who's never bothered to read and understand what gender is.

Men have different experiences than women in our society AT LARGE. This does not mean every single man or every single woman has the exact same experience.

The mental/emotional load (also sometimes called the "double shift") is a well documented issue that overwhelming impacts women in modern patriarchal societies.

I posted the name of a book you can read for more.

It is NOT anti-male. I am NOT anti-male. Feminism is NOT anti-male.

If you don't think our society treats men and women differently, you are grossly misinformed about reality.

I did NOT say Gang's SO's reply automatically meant it did not have the same impact or was pointless to the conversation, just that that was something to keep in mind. Just as you could keep in mind we are a teacher, so we spend ridiculous hours outside our "work day" working; evenings, weekends, breaks, we are working, hence LKinney's "95%."

And let us be VERY clear: we are the FIRST to argue about SA against boys. It utterly ENRAGES us when boys and men's SA is laughed about, ignored, or considered good because "men always want it" - this is all part of patriarchal societies and how we expect men to be. This HURTS MEN, just as much as it hurts women. We work with children all day. We see the traumas and hells they've been through and we have had so many discussions in our classes about gender norms and how this hurts all children, and the boys are usually the ones most impacted by these talks because they have been told all their lives to "man up" while I tell them it's not only okay to cry, but vital to their growth and happiness.

Men being conditioned away from the mental/emotional load doesn't just hurt women, it hurts men. It isolates them in society and it's why unmarried men, or men who get divorced, or whose spouse dies, actually suffer medically as they often do not have strong, emotional attachments. The book I posted isn't just about women's stress, but men's isolation, and sharing the load would help everyone.

Please don't pick up alt-right anti-feminist talking points as valid if you haven't even done the research. Did any of you thinking I am male bashing bother to at least google the mental load at all?

We are addressing this because we have been talking to MD about the mental load about this issue the entire time, this is the framework we have been using to have this discussion.

That and we are not sexist. We'd be a really terrible teacher if we were and we certainly wouldn't do the good work we do with traumatized, angry boys if we were.

- Dax and Piper

LKinney wrote:

Floralie wrote:

LKinney wrote:Also a male will likely have a very different view than a female about the amount of undesired work that must be done as women take on a larger share of domestic work, especially the mental and emotional loads. It's not biological, it's how we raise children based on gender.

To me putting a label "male opinion" that way on something is not acceptable. Especially not when it's pointing out a single person you know nothing about, other than that they feel different from you and your system member. You have no way of telling why they feel different.

Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant people without DID, not a male in a person with DID's system. Thank you for pointing out my poor wording.

We were addressing Gang's SO's comments.

I didn't realize you were talking about what my husband said, so I need to clarify. (Sorry to continue this tangent further.) I offered his opinion as a healthy singleton, not as a male singleton. He carries the mental and emotional load of planning/doing grocery shopping, finances, house repairs, dishes, car repairs, as well as a portion of the yard work. We don't have a typical gender split of domestic work, even though he works full time and I've always worked part time.

I don't think MOST healthy adults view 95% of their lives as taken up with things that they don't want to do. Especially if we're talking about the first world, as we seem to be doing. A lot of it has to do with one's attitude and point of view. Many people find ways to enjoy chores and tasks that they wouldn't necessarily choose to do if they didn't have to. I try to use the "Mary Poppins" approach to chores, and if that doesn't work, then there can be a plan for a reward afterwards. And there can always be a feeling of achievement when something is completed. It's not like I work in the coal mines or as migrant farm worker.