Single asks about shifting

andiKirkwood wrote:

Allcoulors wrote:Well dissociating and switching are two different things for me and even different in and for my alters and thus for the whole system. There are many ways you can dissociate and many ways you can switch and they are defenitly not the same.

not understand what you mean. do you mean you dont dissociate when you become your alters. how does that work. DID is dissociative disorder and alters are dissociation kind that comes out when someone dissociate, how is it differerent for you. do you mean like my carol and Sally are different. Caorl is DID alter and Sally is sub personality alter. with Carol I gets my dissociation and with Sally I dont.

Dissociation can feel almost any kind, but it doesn't feel different to everyone, if the symptom is the same. There are many ways how it can feel like, because there are so many options for symptoms, and you can't dissociate "wrong way". It feels to you like it feels to you, comparing doesn't do any good. That way it is different for everyone, you have your own group of symptoms. It's unique same way than every system is unique. Still, if you have constant DP/DR, it means same feeling for every one who has the feeling of being depersonalized/derealized.

Both of those feelings are different from switching. Person in constant state of DR is not constantly switching, although both switching and DR are dissociative symptoms same person can have. For example dissociation can feel like you only have one arm, although you know both are still there. It doesn't mean switching feels like having one arm to those people who can have a negative symptom like that.

Dissociation symptoms can also be different for every part in the system. If you have a system with clear ANP type of parts and EP type of parts, ANPs are more likely to have negative symptoms (something is missing) and EPs positive ones (something added). For example ANP type of part is more likely to be able to not feel pain, and EP is more likely to feel pain that is no longer there. And both of these experiences are totally different thing from switching. There can be only one part of personality who has such symptom, and they can have it always or just sometimes.

Many people describe switching feels like falling in sleep. But if it does feel like that to you always, it does not mean that is the only dissociative symptom you have, because dissociation and switching are not synonyms. Switching and how it feels like to you, is one dissociative symptom among many, not the same thing than dissociative symptom. If you didn't understand, the logic is same kind than if you say every dog-owner has a dog, you are right, but it doesn't mean every dog has an owner.

Your Carol and Sally are both parts of structural dissociation, they're there because you didn't develop one identity but many. It is the way people with DID are, and doesn't feel like anything as such. Structural dissociation still comes with many possible symptoms linked to it.

Personally: If it's a full switch, it doesn't feel like anything, or if it did, I don't remember it. I most likely never get to know about it, because of amnesia and/or amnesia of amnesia. Only time when I felt something when it happened, was when I felt my thoughts were distracted for a second, and after that I continued what I was doing. Then found out that the distraction I felt was Leon taking over and putting his toy in the backpack, making sure I don't forget to pack it with us for the weekend.

When we're co-conscious, it doesn't automatically feel like anything either, not when it starts. I may be doing something and then realize that is not thing I enjoy, but some other part's interest. Then I pay attention to how I sit or move or how my facial expression is, and realize they're not like me either. After I've realized, I say Hi internally. I'm co-con still with them, but I act like them and do their stuff, so yes, I do call it a switch. Most of these kind of switches go unnoticed as well. They go unnoticed, if I don't pay attention, but they're very much there if I do. If I realize them, it happens intellectually, not because of any feeling, and I don't know when it has started. I can realize it when it's already there, and possibly has been for some time already. So the actual switching doesn't feel like anything.

Sometimes someone comes co-conscious, not just to get to do their things in outside world, but to get in contact with me. I feel them there then. They all have different kind of feel in them. I don't mean feelings like emotions, but essence of how they are. I feel their essence getting close.

Floralie

Johnny-Jack wrote:We can and do switch many times per day among our hosts and other frequent fronters with no dissociation at all, in fact, no awareness among ourselves that we've switched.

This is how it works for us, too. Although the awareness of switching is increasing a little bit. For us the awareness doesn't come from feeling very different--it's most apparent in what our priorities are and what we're thinking about. For example, yesterday, my T was saying how much he likes to hear about the different things that we do, and when he said that he likes Oliver's questions, then all of a sudden Oliver was there, bringing up a question that he had wanted to ask the T but that we had completely forgotten about until that moment--because it was on Oliver's mind and not on any of ours.

Floralie wrote:
Personally: If it's a full switch, it doesn't feel like anything, or if it did, I don't remember it. I most likely never get to know about it, because of amnesia and/or amnesia of amnesia. Only time when I felt something when it happened, was when I felt my thoughts were distracted for a second, and after that I continued what I was doing. Then found out that the distraction I felt was Leon taking over and putting his toy in the backpack, making sure I don't forget to pack it with us for the weekend.
...So the actual switching doesn't feel like anything.
...
Sometimes someone comes co-conscious, not just to get to do their things in outside world, but to get in contact with me. I feel them there then. They all have different kind of feel in them. I don't mean feelings like emotions, but essence of how they are. I feel their essence getting close.

Floralie

Thank you! I wasn't aware of the lack of awareness/whatever while switching. Also, the bit with Leon made me chuckle.

So, switching doesn't necessarily take a long time? Just standard switching. I had been under the impression that it took a while, because that was how it worked for the systems whose Youtube channels I watched. My bf can switch nearly instantly, which I had thought odd because of that.

Parafoxical wrote:
Thank you! I wasn't aware of the lack of awareness/whatever while switching. Also, the bit with Leon made me chuckle.

So, switching doesn't necessarily take a long time? Just standard switching. I had been under the impression that it took a while, because that was how it worked for the systems whose Youtube channels I watched. My bf can switch nearly instantly, which I had thought odd because of that.

I told Leon he was very clever about it, if he would've done anything else than just take the toy, we'd have missed our bus to work. My face smiled back at me very happily, with smile way too big for an adult.

That is just me tho. Some people can feel it when they start to be close to switch. They may feel the other one there, or many of them, trying to come forward, so they know beforehand someone is coming, and who is it. Some people describe the feeling of being pushed to back or pulled to back, while another one steps forward. I have felt that happening only twice. Usually if we switch fully, I don't know it happened if I don't find clues about it afterwards, like the toy that I just saw on the shelf is suddenly inside our backpack. That was cute, and it took literally just that time how much it takes to take a toy into your hand and shove it into a bag. I know, because it was morning and we were in a hurry, leaving house to go to work, and from there straight to spend the weekend.

Not feeling anything is the reason why DID can hide for decades. And if you manage to realize something, there's amnesia to brush it all away and you don't have any memory of what happened.

In our system switches are from few seconds to maybe an hour usually. Max few hours, but never that much I could trace it with watching time. It may feel sometimes time really flied while I was doing something, and probably half or even more of it can be missing (?), but I come back to check the time every once in awhile and stay happy without knowing.

Systems are very different. Mine wants mostly hide, from other people and from me. Not all systems are like that. Someone can be stuck in front for weeks without their will etc. It depends on the system and what they need.

Floralie

Parafoxical wrote:

Floralie wrote:
Personally: If it's a full switch, it doesn't feel like anything, or if it did, I don't remember it. I most likely never get to know about it, because of amnesia and/or amnesia of amnesia. Only time when I felt something when it happened, was when I felt my thoughts were distracted for a second, and after that I continued what I was doing. Then found out that the distraction I felt was Leon taking over and putting his toy in the backpack, making sure I don't forget to pack it with us for the weekend.
...So the actual switching doesn't feel like anything.
...
Sometimes someone comes co-conscious, not just to get to do their things in outside world, but to get in contact with me. I feel them there then. They all have different kind of feel in them. I don't mean feelings like emotions, but essence of how they are. I feel their essence getting close.

Floralie

Thank you! I wasn't aware of the lack of awareness/whatever while switching. Also, the bit with Leon made me chuckle.

So, switching doesn't necessarily take a long time? Just standard switching. I had been under the impression that it took a while, because that was how it worked for the systems whose Youtube channels I watched. My bf can switch nearly instantly, which I had thought odd because of that.

Yea switching dont take that long at all. I got videoed. the switching only took less than a second but being that one we switched into was longer. like how it can take you only seconds to go from kitchen to bathroom but you can be in the bathroom a long time.

when the switch happened no one else could tell it happened. the eyes did this quick flutter then I was me carol. only reason T knew it was me was because I have been doing therapy with her for almost a year. the flutter happens and Im here boom like a snap of the fingers. then I stay around for a while then something triggering happens and the eye flutter happens and boom like a snap of the fingers its andi or the other ones.

The actual psychical neurological switch is not long at all but after that switch has happened who we are can be the same for a lot of days. I have at times stayed the same one for a year before. but thats not how long the switch happens. the moment of switch only takes a snap, a flutter amount of time

BTW Thank you all for helping with the dissociation information, no we are not a structural dissociation system of EP's and ANP's. Our psychiatrist and therapist have been mapping / charting us for about a year now. they ruled out Structural Dissociation theory model for our system because we have no EP's and ANP's , They call our system "trigger related" where all of us have a full range of emotions. we all present as being normal. our switches do not depend upon emotion or need to present as normal in certain situations, What makes us distinct switching is our triggers. not whether we are emotional parts or apparently normal parts. But thank you for the information very interesting.

Uhhh, did is structural Dissociation?.... So if you dont have that than you do not have did formed as result of fragmentation in childhood. Or am I wrong...
Im getting more and more confused here..

Allcoulors wrote:Uhhh, did is structural Dissociation?.... So if you dont have that than you do not have did formed as result of fragmentation in childhood. Or am I wrong...
Im getting more and more confused here..

no structural dissociation is not DID. if you google you will see its a kind of therapy model.like IFS is a therapy,

IFS calls parts and sometimes alters fire fighters, exiles, protectors,
Structural dissociation therapy model calls parts and alters EP's and ANP's

but its not a kind of DID and isnt DID.

google will show you how its used with people who are not DID too.

Structural dissociation is a theory about DID and other dissociative disorders. It explains dissociation along a continuum. It is not a therapy model.

Here is a brief explanation of it:
http://did-research.org/origin/structur ... index.html

IFS is a therapy model meant for people without dissociation. It talks about "parts" of normal people--ego states of a person. The original IFS model doesn't talk about alters and isn't meant to deal with dissociated parts. Here is a good explanation:

https://this-is-not-dissociative.tumblr ... ted_post=1

Some therapists try to adapt IFS to work with people with dissociated parts.

I understand, Andi, that you and your T have your own definition of something called "IFS alters" that seems to work for you. I think that's great, but it isn't a commonly used term.

Some "DID alters" take over completely and some don't. We have "DID alters" in our system who are exactly like the way you describe Sally.

My T would never try to fit a person to a theory. A person with DID can have many alters with a full range of emotions--some who have been traumatized and some who have not been. The ANP/EP model works for some people and doesn't fit others as well.

I still don't understand, because you haven't explained--how do you and your T work with alters like Carol?

TheGangsAllHere wrote:Structural dissociation is a theory about DID and other dissociative disorders. It explains dissociation along a continuum. It is not a therapy model.

Here is a brief explanation of it:
http://did-research.org/origin/structur ... index.html

IFS is a therapy model meant for people without dissociation. It talks about "parts" of normal people--ego states of a person. The original IFS model doesn't talk about alters and isn't meant to deal with dissociated parts. Here is a good explanation:

https://this-is-not-dissociative.tumblr ... ted_post=1

Some therapists try to adapt IFS to work with people with dissociated parts.

I understand, Andi, that you and your T have your own definition of something called "IFS alters" that seems to work for you. I think that's great, but it isn't a commonly used term.

Some "DID alters" take over completely and some don't. We have "DID alters" in our system who are exactly like the way you describe Sally.

My T would never try to fit a person to a theory. A person with DID can have many alters with a full range of emotions--some who have been traumatized and some who have not been. The ANP/EP model works for some people and doesn't fit others as well.

I still don't understand, because you haven't explained--how do you and your T work with alters like Carol?

we use IFS workbook I posted about. we do a meditation then mt T asks questions and we answer her questions. fix problems when they come up. like people use structural dissociation model stabilizing and finding the prooblems and then fixing the problems. just different way of finding the problems and different way of fixing then structural dissociation therapy model.

the structural therapy model is in phases.
phase one is symptom reduction and stabilization
phase 2 is treatment of traumatic memories
phase 3 is integration and rehabilitation

we tried it when we first got diagnosed and it didnt work for us. we got the first phase done but the second phase unstabilized us, had to go back to first phase. we also had the problem that our alters were not ep and anp's all of us can be normal and all of us can be emotional. putting us in those group names didnt work. never did phase three. couldnt get that far cause we had to keep starting over.

get the IFS workbook you will understand how my T, my psychiatrist and I work with carol and sally.

What Gang says. Structural Dissociation is not a therapy model but (one) of the roots/causes of Did... You have to have it to have did..
Thank you gang for explaining more about isf and how it is not about did at all but about ego states. Its beginning to make more sense again now.
The whole therapy and ideas about what did is and how to treat it keeps giving me the total creeps, im sorry. Im glad its helpful for you though andy.
Whats concerning (for me) is that its just not the right information you are given and giving us here and putting it as something new and highly qualified.