Forgiveness for Little

This message is meant to adults, not to little ones who have been involved with the Hard topics thread any way. It's about something that happened in there, or didn't happen, and we need to talk about it, before it gets bigger for us. Same kind of issues has caused huge triggering in the system before, and crying for years afterwards again and again, like huge flash backs of feelings of being abandoned. They don't come with any information about the actual original trauma, but just with the feelings. They are triggered when someone little makes mistake and gets abandoned. And now it seems something similar is happening again, so as an adult I talk for the Little now, before it's unbearable and spirals out of control. If I don't talk about it, it will grow to be huge. They can not talk about it themself, because they're too ashamed and guilty and wish they never said anything. They won't say MORE. They believe other littles are mad at them now and they have ruined everything.

In normal littles thread a boy told about how he needed to pee but wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom in past memory that feels/felt present for him. Someone little in our system - I'll call them just Little with capital L because I am not sure who it was - was reminded because of the message in there about how they don't like to go to bathroom at all. They didn't answer there, I thought it belonged better to hard topics, and we didn't wanna make it sound like an answer to the boy who was talking about needing to pee. We didn't wanna him feel it's not OK to need to go and want to go peeing. So we went to hard topics thread instead and Little told in there they do not like to do bathroom stuff. They meant peeing or pooping with bathroom things.

It's hard topic for the one who thought about it and that's probably one reason why I don't know who it was either, they wanna hide because thinking about bathroom stuff makes them feel awful. They kind of wanted to share it, because they hoped someone would understand, but at the same time it was too much so they used little letters and kind of didn't want to say anything or be seen. But I thought it would be great help to be accepted with a problem. I did not think will they survive from feelings if no one responds.

Other littles were having a conversation in there and Liitle's message went unnoticed. I can come up with many explanations why, and it is not any littles job to answer everything to everyone or be another little's T, that's why we will not discuss about this in there or with little ones. They are not responsible.

Maybe it was out of the place in there in the middle of others talking about something different and it didn't belong there. Little is too Little to explain things well, and I didn't wanna talk for them too much, because that's all they thought, maybe it was not easy message to answer. Maybe it was triggering wrong way if someone did agree or disagree. But the one who wrote it is way too young to understand world is not about them and everything all other people do or don't do is not about them either, not their fault. And the problem is that when the feeling comes, I don't stay adult enough but disappear in the emotion too.

We should not have written it at all. The topic was too hard for Little to be rejected with. That's what we do need to think before talking about anything, only talk about things you can handle if the answers are not what you'd hope or there won't be any. Little started feeling really upset and bad. They know they made a mistake by saying what they did but they can't get it away. Removing the message would not take away the feeling either, if that'd be possible. And they wanted to say sorry, and they did, in the thread. It went unnoticed as well, nobody responded. And that is why Little thinks now they was not forgiven, and people are mad at them.

Little doesn't know what to do, because saying sorry is only thing they knew how to try to make it better, and it didn't work. They weren't forgiven. All they can do is not to write in the future, but they can not erase messages that were sent. They can't do anything to make themself feel better. Being silent for the rest of their life will not make them feel better about it. It can stop them from making new mistakes, but not take away the one they made already. Their feelings are flash back like, no original memory, just overwhelming feeling of total worthlessness and being bad for making a mistake to believe in something good.

It is a big problem in the subsystem, to be totally unable to deal with disappointment. That's the worst thing, to wait for something good, or even be happy, just to realize it was not for us and how stupid it was to think it would be.

Yesterday or day before that, Jules was thinking about the message as well. I don't think he knew originally it was written, but he found out somewhere inside I think. He wanted really badly to go in and tell it wasn't him who wrote it. So all would know it was not him, and others would still talk to him and know the message is not his fault. It's true, it wasn't him, it was someone way younger than 11, but we didn't go to tell that. Because adult me doesn't think it is about Little being hated and not forgiven, so we won't talk about it like they would be. And that is why I want to share this with other adults this way.

We don't know how to work things like this inside, the way we would not need to tell how Little felt about it, and ask for someone who doesn't think bad things about them because of that to tell them they are forgiven. Then they can feel better, and the feeling won't grow more out of proportion, to the point body will spent hours crying because of it and it will last for years. It's not that long ago we were able to come out from the latest spiral, exactly same kind.

I don't know which way is ideal. To say aloud what's wrong, when adult me understands nobody else can even know anything is wrong with us, and talk for Little. Or is the goal to learn how to fix it internally. We don't have what it takes to fix it internally, and no clue what could it even be. That's hard for us, because we are a system meant to be fine on our own. And we are, if we don't make mistakes like that, and say things aloud when they are too hard to handle if not received well.

It would be so great if it could be true, the most sensitive ones expressing themselves and being heard. This is fourth time they've tried to and it has been mistake every time, and they don't survive from it being a mistake. They will go worse every time, even more sensitive, and more likely to fail. They try to be invisible and whisper as silently as they can, for it to be like they never really said anything in case it will be wrong. So no one sees or hears them, and they feel crushed inside.

I've learned my lesson and will not encourage them to reach out, they are safe inside. But I do hope Little could have his forgiveness in here to feel better.

Floralie

I'm sorry to hear what happened and that it brought up so much pain.
Personally I don't think it is the right place to look to getting these young needs met. They would be a bit safer with a therapist or even writing in your own journal and having someone older (you) respond.

My own personal rule is to never ask for things if I can't cope with "no". Then it is too sensitive.
But they are two separate things: reaching out, and the answer to that.
I understand Little is too little to understand, so I'm still addressing you in this.
Reaching out in itself is a very good thing, and every time you do it is a sort of victory. You express your feelings and take them seriously enough to express them.
The response generally has little to do with you personally. If you get an unsatisfactory response, it's likely that you're asking someone who doesn't know how to answer, doesn't have the skills or theheadspace, etc. Or is just a prick.

The safest person to ask is always yourself, but as humans we need connection and community. Sometimes that's where it gets hard.

It sounds like an emotional flashback may get triggered. Then it is time for reality-checking. Finding the differences! Like one of those picture games. First you name everything that is similar, and then you look for differences. And then you even look for small differences in the similarities.

Can you think of soothing things you could say to a part struggling with those feelings? I tend to say things like: "I am here. It's okay. You're very upset, aren't you? Do you want to show/tell me about it?" And then after 5 - 10 minutes or so, I tend to distract them, for example by talking about something they like.

Good luck... it isn't easy to deal with all of this stuff.

I agree with what fireheart said.

Something that is so uncomfortable for that little to express, so that they are hiding while even trying to say it, might be safer to express to your therapist, or talked about with you in a journal first--like fireheart said.

I know that my littles didn't really understand what was being said--it was vague to them--which "stuff" was being talked about, and what wasn't liked about it, and even who was saying it. It was a statement with no context for them to grab onto, but them skipping over it had no further meaning beyond that.

It doesn't mean at all that it was a mistake to post there, other than because of the painful feelings that it brought up for your system. It doesn't mean that anyone is angry at them. So maybe you can reassure them about that--there was nothing done that needs forgiveness. If they didn't get the outcome they were hoping for, maybe you can find out more from them what they were hoping to hear, and maybe an older part or your T can provide that for them.

It was not so long ago when a little from another system didn't wanna write on little's thread because they didn't feel they belong, because they felt bad. They were asked to come and they will surely get answers and friends. It was really nice. We understand now the invitation was only for that little, not all with same kind of problems will be hoped to come. They were someone who had friends already and was liked, unlike Little. Usually new littles at least get Hi, even if they don't express themself well. People were very nice to Jules when he came, although he was confused. I did not know beforehand Little is different and needs to be stopped from writing. Other littles do need to have a right to choose who they wanna talk with, we do understand that. It doesn't mean Little would not feel bad all agree they shouldn't come.

It feels unfair to me too. It comes to being a team. I will not tell someone with less power they aren't allowed to do things and then go do them myself, because this is not a thing that would be adults only. We will gang up together and defend ourselves, also Little. It's all of us, or non of us. Other people don't get to pick and choose. It's sad, but that's what it comes up to. In the end we are traumatized, and at some point it can be seen. This is where it can be seen.

All parts in Jules' system are the same, fear of being abandoned is all over them. The ones who have been able to talk in here with more likes are the ones that are more talkative. Some are more traumatized, and originally Hard topics thread was meant to littles who feel they don't belong to where others talk about playing and toys, because they think other kind of things. Littles like Little.

We've never seen anyone else's first message in Littles thread been unnoticed. when their sorry was not responded either it became clear it was about them, not abut people talking about something else. That's why we weren't ready for that to happen. Jules or Leon would not have been able to keep on talking like nothing happened, if same would've happened to them. It just didn't. That's why it's unfair to need to lock Little in for what they did, when all they did was that their sentence was not fancy enough. Sad or shy ones have been supported before, not told to stay out until they've healed.

There are two ways to see it, to make it OK. To either say there was nothing wrong with what they said or in the fact they wrote, so there's nothing to forgive.

Or you can see it was a mistake, and there was mistakes in what they said or how badly they said it or with who they are (without a name). Then there is something to forgive. That is why they said sorry, because they wrote so badly and at wrong time for other people and about things other littles didn't wanna talk about.

At least that is what we hoped for, that people who find mistakes to point out would forgive them.

Little one feels better not telling in more details about the problem tho, this would be only more embarrassing to them if they would have said that kind of words when other littles didn't wanna hear about it. It would be one thing more to be sorry about. I think they were brave, even if they didn't say it all aloud but whispered, it was very brave. They were brave to say sorry as well, trying to get new try and it's understandable they feel awful because they didn't.

It's so true what I wrote elsewhere. We do not know how to ask for support like other people do. I've tried to change that, but maybe it is better not to anyway. There are other people who are good at it, we are not, and now we know other people agree it's better not to talk about things we have feelings about. That makes it kind of pointless for me to be here, because I thought this is safe place to practice and in here people would understand about having issues with things. That's the reason I came in.

Sami is the only one who really doesn't care if he's not popular because of what he is and does. That makes him the only one who can safely be in here. But he won't alone, he stands with us, he's here to make sure it's safe enough to be around, but he has no need to talk about his stuff to anyone.

Our T already knows there are several parts with difficulties to pee and poop. They already have an agreement they don't have to, but they do need to let someone else do it when body needs to go. T also knows there's plenty of abandonment issues, but the subsystem that holds these problems is not able to come to talk about them with T. Our ANP-adult reporting about them doesn't really make any difference, because they're not in touch with the feelings.

I can't really help Little either, like I told, when they come their feeling devours me and there is no adult me to talk about it then. When they are not that close like now, I rather get angry the way their writing is judged, after they already feel terrible about it and said sorry. There's nothing more they can do, so pointing it out instead of forgiving is not fair.

Floralie wrote:there was nothing wrong with what they said or in the fact they wrote, so there's nothing to forgive.

I think this is the most accurate way to look at it. Maybe you can help them understand that.

There are two Little's threads now. One is the longstanding one where nothing very triggering is talked about--it's where littles can enjoy aspects of being a kid and having friends that they may have missed out on. That is the thread that the other little was being encouraged to post on again and being told that other littles would respond and be her friend. If your Little wanted to post on there to say hi and maybe talk about what they like, I'm sure other littles would respond. Not every post gets responded to because sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the posts or remember who said what. At least it is for my littles. I know that sometimes we only respond to the most recent post. But the littles on there do try to welcome anyone new, even if they don't understand the post or who it is.

The thread for littles to talk about difficult topics is much newer and to my mind is more of a place for littles to say "out loud" things that are troubling them that wouldn't be appropriate for the other littles thread. I've noticed that if a little asks a question on there, another little will usually answer it, but if a post is just statements about how they're feeling, then other littles might just read it and not say anything back. Some of our littles have written there just to have a place to say things when they're upset, not necessarily expecting a response. I don't think it's meant as a place for littles to make friends--that's not how I think of it. I definitely don't think of it as a place for littles who don't feel like they belong on the other thread, but just as a place for any littles to talk about difficult things.

There has been talk in the past of having a thread just for littles who only hold trauma, but I remember there was concern about that--that those littles would need more support than what they would be able to get from other traumatized littles.

I am trying not to be provoked by the attacking tone in your post. No one told your Little that they needed to be stopped from writing. No one agreed that they shouldn't be posting. No one needed to "lock Little in for what they did." No one told them to "stay out until they've healed." It's hurtful to my littles to project all of those feelings onto them. That is just the way that your system is explaining what happened, but none of those statements are true for the actions of my littles.

Yes, your Little was very brave to post and to also to say sorry when they thought they did something wrong. I hope you're able to help them feel that way about it.

For us your message didn't go unnoticed, but it was triggering.
"Bathroom stuff" reminds us of abuse that took place there, not of not being able to pee and poo. It wouldn't have been possible for us to talk about that, let alone have the littles talk about that. It could be straight up dangerous.

So, yeah. Sorry you all feel hurt, but sometimes it doesn't have to be something outwardly mean? Sometimes it doesn't have to do with you.

I'm done talking about it now, because I also have littles to protect and they don't deserve to be shamed for being too scared of something to respond.

I'm scared I'm just wasting everyone's time before unavoidable. Usually if you're not understood, you can try to say it all again different way to be understood the way you meant. if it still isn't, it becomes only about repeating, and it won't change anything. Then it's usually not about not being understood, but about something else. We still feel our point was not understood at all, so we give it one more go. After that, well then we face the fact people don't agree, and won't in the future either.

My littles are not able to give support to other littles at all. Therefor I have no reason to expect anyone else's would. That is why I made a list of examples of reason I do understand other littles can have (including the ones that were your reasons), and that's why they don't respond. They have no obligation to answer, also "didn't feel like writing" is a valid reason. And it's not only littles. That was also the reason why I don't wanna talk to those littles, that would be violation against them and also misleading. This is not about them, this is about Little, and Little only. I tried to be very clear with that, and in the fact I hope we don't speak about other littles. I understand you mean it well when you tell your reason, but it's kind of totally different topic. And I did explain and made a list of examples of reasons to show I do understand that.

We base our supposition to what we've seen before. I don't know how you handle things inside the system, but because we've never seen someone new's message to not be responded at all, I did not know it was a thing I need to explain to Little beforehand. I have not to others either. They have been responded nice ways, including Jules who wrote to Hard topics thead and there only, and once they are "in", it's totally different thing if something they say won't have any answers back, than to try to come as new one and not make it in at all.

So we made the mistake of being positive and assuming good things like other littles have (gave examples about that too), but failed. I do not think it's unreasonable to feel bad about it. I thought adults do agree it's not, and that they could empathize with what felt rejection to us. I'm pretty convinced that is how your little would feel like too, if same thing would've happened to them, or will at someone new in the future. It may not feel as life-ending to the ones whose trauma is not in abandonment, or who can deal with it inside, but for ones who struggle with it, it certainly does.

As I explained twice already too, we don't have what it takes to handle trauma feelings or deal with them internally. We have not ever dealt with any trauma memories. So we do need back up from outside for that, to be validated. It didn't even need to be from systems who have been in that thread, and certainly NOT from the parts that were, because they're just little, just like Little. Just from anyone who thinks of course Little is forgiven, or Little didn't do anything to feel sorry for, and that's it. With no "but" in any shape of form that takes the validation back.

Now, I'm ready for it to never happen, but at least we tried. Little tried all they know how, and I did too. Thank you anyway for the comments, most awful thing would've been to left guessing reasons, like before.

I already said that your Little didn't do anything that they need to feel sorry for or that needs to be forgiven. The other things I said were just to give information about possible reasons their post wasn't responded to so that maybe they could have a successful experience in the future.

On the one hand you're saying that it's not about anyone else's littles, but then you talk about how other littles have been responded to and not your Little as if that meant that your Little did something wrong. And in a way that sounded accusatory to me, even if you say it wasn't.

I was trying to give reassurance that in my opinion your Little hadn't done anything wrong. But it seems like there's something else you're after, and I don't know what it is. Having a feeling of rejection is not the same as being rejected. Other littles not responding to a post they either didn't understand, or found triggering is not a rejection of your Little. I'm sorry that they felt rejected.

Maybe you can take this whole interaction to your T and have them help you process what happened and how you and Little feel about it.

Edited because I remembered that I wouldn't engage more,
I also think Gang already expressed the sentiment of what I was going to say.

There are two levels in here throughout the whole conversation, theory and the reality. They don't meet anywhere, and that's why it's impossible for us to make any sense out of it. In theory all is fine. Little did nothing wrong so they don't need forgiveness they asked for. In reality there were several reasons in their message that made it impossible for others to answer, which is one of the things they tried to say sorry, the fact they don't know how to express themself. But they won't be forgiven for the mistakes named, because theory makes that impossible.

In theory all littles are welcome to write, so no one can say aloud Little would not be. In theory they can come to normal littles thread and make friend there and after that they can write in the other thread too. But in reality there are many invisible walls and silent rules we weren't aware of. Hard topics thread is not for Little or anyone like them, it was talked about and people agreed it's not. It means we understood the whole thread wrong way, it's meant for the ones who already have friends, instead of littles who are not able to. Somewhere it changed to the theory mentioned above, all being welcome, which sounds nicer, but is very confusing from our point of view. In reality Little is embarrassed and sad. They don't have what it takes to come and start to talk about nice things, they don't think about nice things, and it would be faking. They're too little to fake, and I don't think it's good or healthy thing to do anyway. So in reality they are not happy enough to normal littles threads, they need to heal a lot before they are, and hard topics thread is not for them either. So it leaves us with the fact theory says they're welcome, but in reality not to threads that actually exists.

Sadly, we do live in reality and don't have much use for theories that don't match with it, no matter how nice they sound.

We are different than you are. For us saying something aloud is not helpful, at all. It is either meaningless, like in all social situation in real life with other people in there, including therapy, because there's no connection to any hard emotions. Writing is our emotional language, because we can do it without anyone there physically, in touch with each other and connected. Then saying aloud something that feels like anything is taking a risk, and hoping it will end up well. We'll never get better without taking those risks and learning there can be good outcomes, so when someone (including ourselves) says we shouldn't take those risks, it means giving up and staying exactly the way we are now instead of trying to get better. But when it doesn't end up well, it was just repeating trauma. What we feel and think doesn't matter. And it is way easier to not express what we think and feel about anything actually meaningful. That is how we have lived our life. Littles like Little are probably just there, in a phase when we had learned very well to shut up and not say things aloud, but in that age it makes life much harder than it does adult life, because it's adults making all decisions for them. We learned to not express feelings before we learned to use words at all. They certainly don't find it helpful to say things, but hard. The outcome could be so hugely helpful, I think it was kind of worth of trying. Little will not try again, talk about where they can or can't write was theoretical but it was still important. It is a different thing if they choose not to write, or if they don't actually have a choice, because it's about them being wrong kind of little to participate.

The whole subsystem where all the littles are is there to hold trauma. Therefor everything that applies to Little, is also about the rest of them.

If feeling rejected is what Little experiences, then it is their truth. It is what they live. They do deserve to have their feelings validated, not explained away by telling this is not a right feeling to feel. They are allowed to feel bad and hurt. I didn't expect it would be hard consept for adults to grasp, but it was. If it was intentional or not is another topic. That is what I have repeatedly tried to make you understand, so you could feel empathy for the Little without saying their experience is wrong or feelings other littles have been blamed.

Non of our trauma never was meant to traumatize us. We are not victims of organized crime or mind control. We crew up with dissociative parents,who kind of meant well, but had no clue about anything, and were way too much into their own problems to see us as anything else but support to them. Because it was not intentional, or because of anyone being sadistic, it doesn't mean we didn't live thru trauma. It's our side of the story, we are entitled to have feelings about it too, even when it was unintentional. Their side is something else. Theirs are sad as well. Sometimes there are no bad guys, just people with way too much for them to handle, generation after another.

I don't want to tell reasons for Little why what he feels is not important or true enough, I want their feelings to be validated, because that is the thing we have never had. We have had a lot of those other views and how nobody is to blame, and it's fine, it most likely is the truth. My mom doesn't try to cross my boundaries out of bad will, but because she has no concept of boundaries in her. And other littles certainly have valid reasons. But IT IS NOT ABOUT THEM. It is about our side of the story being valid too, for once.

I gave examples of previous things happening for littles to give context why we had no reason to be ready for no answers, we've never seen that happening before, we've seen only nice things. Especially no one responding to their sorry. I understand other littles reasons and that is why I made a list of them, but when you tell them for Little to hear, they hear accusations. Exact same ones why they said sorry, but still they are not forgiven and it makes them overwhelmed because they don't understand what more is wanted from them than the sorry. And at the same time you say it was not needed. Then don't tell them their writing was too bad to be responded to.

I understand we may come across very moody, but what can I tell. We have DID, sometimes Little is closer and sometime further and I have no control over it.

*** Off topic. I might as well do all feeling expressing in here, because, well, why on earth would I spread it all around. We're getting more and more depressed overall, and there's more bruising appearing on the body without me knowing where it came from. Today I know for fact four more came while I was sleeping, because I shaved my legs before going to bed and there was one big one that appeared before, and after getting up, there were four little new ones there too. Things have not been well for some time now. When that happens, we have always separated ourselves from other people, so we don't have to keep up the happy face for them when we have no energy to. We dream about a time when we know how to show it outside too, be grumpy and tired and how ever we really feel inside.

We don't have energy to keep it up in here either, sometimes we're the one that would need support and validation, and here's all the evidence you need to see it requires skills we just don't have. Instead of understanding what are we trying to say, people get frustrated and angry. Not engaging is not that bad idea from our side either. But we tried, at least we tried, it's better than having broken little and growing abandonment without anyone knowing, but us keeping up the fake face.

edit. We understand how tense it would be if any of the littles from our system write again after this, so you don't need to worry they do. No one doesn't need to feel obligated to talk to them, or gets a chance to not talk to them on purpose if annoyed about me.