discipline

I have trouble with executive functioning: making myself do what I need to get done.
For example, getting out of bed in the morning, doing the dishes, and cooking.

I want it to be a value in the system that punishment is not a thing, but that's really the way I want to deal with all of this: if you don't get out of bed on time, you'll need to take a cold shower - for example.

I still get those kinds of ideas with everything I don't like about myself: if you can't get over that, you'll just need to be punished. In that case I can see that soothing may be a better approach, but how do you tackle the actual discipline things like getting out of bed?

I dare to suggest that it is not a discipline thing at all.
It is a motivation thing.
What can you do to increase your motivation enough so that you will want to get out of bed?

the answer could be in a mindful observation of how the day is going.
We fall out of bed at 6am every morning, even though we are not working.
But we know that if we stay in bed the day will be short and we will be slow and unhappy.
we observed that getting up early is only hard for a short time and after that there is energy and enough time for all of us to have a life and get our needs met.
it helps that we like drinking coffee and having breakfast. So there is something small to look forward to.

if you want to work with conditioning (punishment would be adding negative stimulation) you could also go for positive conditioning, adding a positive stimulation. Like a dog who gets a biscuit for doing the trick. Connect getting up with a reward.

Science shows that the idea of discipline isn't working. we actually don't do stuff because we merely will it to happen. will power isn't even a concept in advanced psychological training. Motivation is. find a reason why. one that inspires.

I had the exact same reaction than birdsong87 did, she was faster to type it. There is no such thing as lack of discipline, there is only lack of motivation. I know a thing and two about learning, because of animal training. Basics of learning are the same with all species. There is a lot of science done on learning, and that science tells very clearly that punishments reduce activity in general. It reduces TRYING, because every time you try, you can fail, and with punishments, you are then risking to get one just by trying out something. Especially if your problem is to be too passive, don't do things which reduce activity in general.

Training yourself is also trickier than training someone/something else. On the other hand you know first hand how something makes you feel. The reason WHY you lack motivation is important. What do you feel? Are you tired, is someone else tired, are you or someone else depressed? Is the reason you don't wanna get up based on the fact you feel your daily routines that start after you get up, are too much for you or in other words, they are punishment to you from getting up, which is why you wanna stay where it still feels safe and comfortable? Or are you OK and your day does not feel overwhelming at all, but staying in bed is just so comfortable, it feels more rewarding than getting up?

Do you feel better after active day or after day that you rested?

In every case at the moment staying in bed is more rewarding than getting up. I used to struggle with this a lot, and for me the biggest reasons were simple facts. First of all, my home-me, the part of me whose job it is to take care of me, was not feeling well enough, but tried to avoid everything, because everything felt overwhelming. Making that part feel more guilt certainly won't help them feel better. She avoided everything that was her responsibility, after she either had break down or changed 6 years ago, and she was a teenager who had no self worth to care about herself.

Is it easier for you to take care of other things, but you lack energy and will to take care of yourself? If that is the problem, you do understand punishing and being mean about that won't change that, but will make it worse, don't you?

One little thing that helped me, was when I realized that when we need to do something, that something also ends. We only need to do it for a while, and then it's done and we can rest again. Truly understanding that fact, that sounds so obvious, was life changing for us. What if you get up to eat breakfast, and after that you are allowed to have another 30 minutes back in bed, before getting up for real, changing clothes etc? Or if there's sink full of dishes, what if you do just some of them? Make a time limit, or decide you need to wash all the plates and glasses, but you can leave the rest if you still feel it's too much. Sometimes it's just that starting is hard, but not actually doing things once you get started.

On the worst times I didn't do dishes, but I was not allowed to take clean dishes from cupboards if there was dirty ones waiting to be washed. I needed to wash the ones I was going to use that time, and another one of each. Like if I needed plate and glass and spoon, I washed 2 of each. Ones to be used and washed straight after when it's very quickly done, and ones to be put to cupboard as clean ones. Little by little I had no dishes in the sink.

You can do things your way, you don't have to do them normal way. Be nice to yourself. If you punish yourself based on doing dishes, you will be conditioned negatively to dishes. It is never just behavior that gets rewarded or punished, there is also feelings involved, you can not avoid it, because we feel something all the time. But if you are depressed for example, you can still reward yourself then. That is when you need to be nice and understanding to yourself, and being that can help you see some light in the darkness. At least you are not against yourself, even if it feels the whole world is.

Do not reward the side of yourself who is so keen on punishing. With that energy, they can do the dishes themself, or they can do a pep talk about you being able to do this, for sure. I mean, it won't be logical to punish someone about something you think they can't do, you can only feel need to punish them if you feel they CAN do that but just don't for some reason. In my reasoning it means the side that is ready to punish, believes in your ability to do stuff. If you lack mental energy, don't waste it to punishments, they will take huge bites off it if you do.

Do you lack mental energy all over, or is the problem to get it where it's needed? Is this problem present right now, or has it always been this way?

There's a lot of questions to think about, and some solutions, but you know yourself if they feel the kind that will help you. There is so many reasons why things like that can be a problem.

fireheart wrote:I still get those kinds of ideas with everything I don't like about myself: if you can't get over that, you'll just need to be punished.

I agree with what birdsong and Floralie said about motivation and rewards.

I wanted to add that, unlike with a singleton, it is dissociated parts of ourselves that we don't like and want to punish, and who often are the reason for feeling overwhelmed by daily tasks. It has helped me to consider the others when I'm thinking about what needs to get done.

So, it has helped to make a to-do list of what each part wants to do that day, starting with the youngest, and then to tackle the list by doing the things we are feeling most motivated for at the start. It's like being part of large family and having to balance everyone's needs and wants.

I find that incentives (better word than rewards, I think), are very helpful, and there's a balance between doing them first vs. not getting them until after the task is done. If Little needs/wants something urgently that won't take much time, and I try to put it off until after I do a chore, we might find ourselves stalled and unproductive. For example, when we got home from our trip a couple of weeks ago, I made a list of what everyone wanted, and Little wanted us to unpack the new stuffy, show him around the house, and put him in the little cubby next to the bed. Once I had done that, we had more motivation for the other "more important" things that needed to get done.

If you make a list, you will probably find that someone wants to get out of bed, do the dishes, cook, etc, but others want different things (including staying in bed for awhile, for example). If you find that someone actually has don't do the dishes! as being important to them for some reason, then you can talk to them about it and work out a compromise (like that wash 2 to use 1 approach that Floralie mentioned). If someone wants to stay in bed ALL DAY! then again, you can work out a compromise. Maybe they're young and don't realize what won't get done if you do that. Maybe the offer of a special breakfast treat, or a short cartoon will be motivating enough to get you up.

I find that harnessing the energy of the littles is VERY motivating. If there is a particular trinket or treat that they want, and I include getting that in the errands that I need to run, you can be sure that we will get to all those errands so they can get what they want at the end of it.

Sometimes there are things that I view as chores that one of the littles really enjoys doing. Oliver loves to brush the cats and to give the dog a bath. I find those things tedious, time-consuming, and unrewarding. (It is very weird to write that and know that it's true.) We let Oliver do those things yesterday, and now the older ones who care that those "chores" are crossed off our list are pleased, and Oliver really enjoyed getting to do them.

I haven't found someone in here who likes cooking, but maybe you have a part who does. As for dishes, you may have young ones who would enjoy "playing" with the soap and warm water and the dishes would get clean at the same time. (Just throwing out ideas, but you get the picture, I think).

I'd be interested to know if any of this works for you!

i really struggle with executive function. i also really struggle with moving away from punishing myself over things. for me, my main issue is that i'm really tired all the time. the body has a chronic fatigue problem, and when i front too much and/or i'm generally not doing too good, i get really mentally fatigued too.

something that helped when i didn't have any help from the others in my system was finding workarounds and ways of minimising energy expenditure. i used paper plates / plastic cutlery so i could make food but not deal with washing up. i made sure i had a supply of easy-to-eat food (cereal bars and brioche finger rolls are lifesavers) so i at least ate a little something if a bigger meal was too hard. i used dry shampoo and baby wipes if i couldn't handle showering. i found some mouthwash tab things that you put in your mouth with some water and can swill around and spit out if brushing teeth is difficult. that way you're still doing something, but in an easier way. it also helps counteract the punishment angle, which for me is often centered on "you didn't do this thing and you should be punished", but if i did a little of a thing then it's easier to handle those kinds of thoughts.

since me and the others in my system started trying to co-operate more, something that's really helped all of us collectively function is sharing tasks. i normally get us up in the morning and put us to bed. jones usually makes sure we shower often enough. charles cleans and makes dinner. either me, jones, or lain will make breakfast / lunch. we discuss before appointments or trips outside who feels up for handling it. it really helps us function and feel less overwhelmed.

- alice

Wow, thank you so much for the replies. This is very helpful.

We've been experimenting a little this week. It seems apparent that the issue is more about motivation than about discipline. Thanks for that hint!

One time we got up at 6:00 because we had to be somewhere. Another time we did the dishes in two shifts, because someone was coming to visit and would see them otherwise. The littles helped to do the chores.

This morning we got up at 7:00, because our phone died and we didn't have a clock. But also, it's far too nice to continue laying bed and read stuff on the phone. However, the consequence was that we felt tired all day today. Idk. We seem to get enough hours of sleep theoretically, but I still get tired very soon... which I want to prevent, and I guess maybe that's why I keep laying in bed.

Self-care is a big challenge.
I'm glad to hear you found so many ways to work around it, raptureblues - and that is going better now.