social protectors

Oh yes, the trust-thing...

My experience with children is that it's pretty much the same - there are rules, techniques to use, etc. I can definitely hide myself behind those, even when interacting with children. The only point where it gets difficult is when other parts want to front or influence me - I know I need to be "the adult" (very much a role), but really some parts desperately want to have like-minded friends. That's the balancing act - do I let them see that I relate to them?
I tell my child parts that the body is a lady now, so we need to act like a lady in public. I think Robin enjoys acting like that by now.

Eh, went on a bit of a ramble there. Anyway, I think if you would practise interacting with kids more often and would build up a similar behaviour-repertoire like you have with adult interactions - it wouldn't be much different. I guess for me, you could say that I definitely want to hide from children (or else they may see!). So, that relates to the shame-thing, maybe.

Maybe it's also a normal/healthy thing? It probably depends on the degree of hiding that's happening. It sounds very healthy that you at least feel connected to friends - I am also not able to share myself with them. Although I've been getting better at it lately.

Is it something about the people that makes you not trust them and want to hide?

birdsong87 wrote:I think what I am actually feeling is shame.
Cause somehow I make people believe that we have something that we don't have. and that makes me a liar.
And I am confused. because we value connection really high and we know when we feel connected and it is confusing to see that others get that feeling when we don't. That they feel connected when I am doing my best to hide us and disconnect into superficial friendliness.
And I am somewhat angry with myself, because the actual need is distance but for some reason I act in a way that makes people come back.

I feel like I am good with boundaries. I never give what I don't want to give. but I wonder if we could save some energy if I got more greedy with social stuff. It is confusing to me. From the outside it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. But it creates one inside when I feel estranged when people tell me of their experience with me. Or mention that they think of me all the time.
and maybe there is a shame issue that makes me wonder who I am that these people think I am important...
my head is a mess right now. I will have to reflect on this a little more

People make mistakes in connection every day. How often do you read or hear "I thought we were close" "I thought this person liked me but it turns out they don't"

Mistaken feelings of connection happen every day. So you're being friendly, caring, interested and then people turn that into whatever they want to turn it into. You're not responsible for that.

In a worse case they might see you as a soft touch. In a best case they'll think you're lovely and feel connected to you. However a person reacts to you is their issue. Your issue is how you're interacting and imo being caring, interested and friendly is an ideal way for people to conduct themselves generally. It's not a negative shameful thing.

You said you have nothing to offer them back of what they perceive but then you said in some cases you feel connection. So you do have stuff to offer back just not to all and sundry. To people you actually feel connected with.

I really don't think you ought to shamed into being something you're not, someone unfriendly, uninterested etc because other people misinterpret you. Especially shaming yourself into it.

That'd be like a stalking victim never making friends again for fear of giving the wrong vibes to potential stalkers. Healthy people don't stalk. Disturbed people stalk. The victim isn't to blame, the perpetrator is.

Take all this as a compliment. Take it with a pinch of salt. Take it as lies you tell yourself to feel good - Take it any damn way other than using it to make yourself feel ashamed and treat people in ways that potentially might have negative impact on them as well as you.

I'm wondering if this is just an internal idea of if some outside person has said something to put this seed of doubt into your mind. If it is an outside idea I'd be examining this outside person and wondering why they're trying to make you feel ashamed of being friendly and interested in others.

fireheart wrote:
Is it something about the people that makes you not trust them and want to hide?

I think I most often do it with people who match our mothers pattern of bad boundaries + emotional neediness + dysregulation. I do it especially with people I dislike and get bad vibes from. Or people I don't consider friend-material at all, but we are stuck in a setting and their level of dysregulation is stressing me out, so I start to co-regulate them.
I am HUGE at co-regualting my environment. I do it all. the. time.
Which is why I need a totally regulated T, otherwise I will do all kinds of things to balance the situation.
when I think of all the situations that recently happened... it was all about me feeling uncomfortable around someone for not being regulated, then basically offering relational regulation in form of empathy and a superficial sense of connection, to get them balanced so that I can finally feel more relaxed. It is selfish from my point of view, but they see it as a great service and deep help. I think that is what creates a sense in connection in them. When all I wanted was just to make them stop being so dysregulated because they stressed me out.
(I did mention that I am not a good person. I just try to get by somehow)
I guess I end up in weird relational confusion AND it costs a lot of energy. Because just remembering the clinic... I bit my tongue a million times to get by with some of those people, and I earned some true awe, but I alone knew my real feelings and it does make me feel bad. nobody else ever learned about this, so it is not being shamed. it is a natural shame that comes from not being in line with my values.
I think I give people the same level of attention, empathy and presence that I give to my friends. I am just not invested at all. Or maybe I am investing something, but it leaves me with a sense of frustration?

birdsong87 wrote: it was all about me feeling uncomfortable around someone for not being regulated, then basically offering relational regulation in form of empathy and a superficial sense of connection, to get them balanced so that I can finally feel more relaxed. It is selfish from my point of view, but they see it as a great service and deep help.

But, if you do something to help yourself, and it is also also greatly helpful to someone else, in a way that they notice and appreciate, how is that out of line with your values? Do you feel like you're not being truthful because you don't add, "And by the way, I don't feel any connection or liking for you, I'm just doing it for myself"?

You're not really responsible for the meaning that they attribute to your behavior. It means something different to you than it does to them, but I don't think you need to feel bad about that.

I guess it feels dishonest to me. and like manipulation.
we only recently had the discussion that our system often prefers bluntness over nice words, because we expect nice words to be manipulation and we prefer to have stuff straight forward.
so, am I manipulating when I am co-regulating for my own benefit? and making people we consider unpleasant like us so they won't get as unpleasant as they could be?

I went to the definition of manipulate:

--to manage or utilize skillfully

--to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

--to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

I would argue that you are doing the first--managing skillfully, and not the second or third, because those assume that the action is to the detriment of the other.

Doing something that is for the other person's benefit as well as your own can't be a negative thing. I hear that you feel bad because they end up thinking that you like them or feel connected to them, but it's not like you said that to them. They just got that impression.

And why go out of your way to express an unkind thing to someone by being blunt instead of nice?

People smooth their interactions all the time by being nice and not blunt with each other. I totally get the feeling you're talking about, when you realize that someone thinks that you have more of a relationship than you do--that they like you and assume that you feel the same.

And you really don't like them and don't feel or want to feel connected to them. And I also feel uncomfortable and like I'm somehow doing something wrong. But I don't think that's actually the case. And other than extricating oneself from the situation, I don't see what you can do.

i can understand why that makes you feel icky.

I think that's a super power to be so charming. but maybe don't waste it on assholes. sounds like you need another way to deal with the assholes though.

birdsong87 wrote:it is a natural shame that comes from not being in line with my values.

birdsong87 wrote:their level of dysregulation is stressing me out, so I start to co-regulate them.
I am HUGE at co-regualting my environment. I do it all. the. time.

OK, so I may be totally wrong, but what I'm getting is that you're protecting yourself from their dysregulation by regulating them. You engage with them and they enjoy this engagement and therefore want to be your friend.

However, you didn't show them your real you. So, you may: (1) feel ashamed for protecting yourself, but (2) it may also be about them not seeing the real you.
Maybe you feel that if they would see the real you, they wouldn't be friendly towards you at all?

Plus, you don't even want to be friends... I agree with Beccabee that maybe you need another way to deal with scary people.
Biting your tongue not saying things... that to me is a hallmark of hiding yourself, because it would be Dangerous to SHOW yourself.

Hi birdsong,

I do the same thing - being over-nice to people we don't like and are kind of scared of. I'm trying to stop it and Colin is helping remind me.

But I learned that I start feeling ashamed not because of what I'm DOING NOW but because of what it REMINDS me of. I tried to co-regulate our abuser to make us safer and anytime I do it now with other people I feel the same slimy feelings. But that doesn't mean I did anything wrong (our T says this all the time). It just means it's associated with shame so I'm RE-feeling it.

This is kind of a messy answer. Hope it helps.

Iain

I relate to this.

I think the reason this method of keeping people at a distance isn't working now is that, for the most part, circumstances will be different now compared to when you were younger. If you are in a situation with someone that is unpleasant or a threat and you cannot leave, charming them IS the best approach to prevent escalation. As an adult though, you will generally be able to leave situations that make you uncomfortable. Your approach makes complete sense in the original context it was needed in (such as with your mother), it just doesn't carry over as well into other situations. So it's not that you are doing a bad job at protecting all of you socially, you are just using tools that don't fit the context based on what used to be most effective.