Times when "Mindfulness" with Dissociation don't work.

Dear Readers

I've been having a rough time with Dissociation lately more than usual and wanted to go into some discussion as how it relates to "Mindfulness" and Dissociation.

The topic of "Mindfulness" is so very popular and is the latest "Fad" especially in Psychology and Trauma. Although I fully agree that "Mindfulness" as a goal and something to try and become more "Mindful" personally is helpful, it's quite clear that most professionals are very ignorant on the subject.

However due to Neurology and the way brains seem to operate as we are discovering, "Mindfulness" practices for dissociated/traumatized populations are not very effective.

Since I first made the mistake of seeking "Help" for my trauma related issues I was acutely experiencing 5 years ago at my local "Mental Health Clinic", I have had "Mindfulness" and "Grounding Techniques" drilled into me for when I get triggered etc. I'm not saying that they are not very helpful at times or useful tools to be added to a person's coping skills, I feel it's very important to understand when they are as well as when they can actually be harmful.

Now before anyone jumps the gun and wants to "Kill the Messenger" (me for carrying this message), I want to point to why I am expressing this message from a very good lecture by Bessel Van der Kolk at Yale university as a guest speaker in 2013 on the topic of "Borderline Personality Disorder" , although as he states at the beginning of the lecture, he is a bit baffled as to why he was asked to speak on the topic of "BPD". It may now be exactly 5 years old, however much of what he speaks about is still very current and even better understood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NTADxDuhA

Besides being a Very good history about the History of current Trauma History (as of May of 2013), I am posting the link specifically for the follow up "Questions and Answers" period afterwords where he goes into specifics as to the topic I am posting.

At 51:41 time he shows how "Dissociation" literally knocks out key parts of the brain involved with the abilities (or lack there of) required for being able to be "Mindful" so to speak using MRI brain scans.

Also a key point is made specifically when asked "How does "Mindfulness" practice restore and re-establish normative brain function?" at 58:45.

I'm pretty sure this topic may be somewhat controversial. I don't mean it to be. I feel it's crucial to try and understand these issues on a neurological level for that is really what is at the core of why we experience the symptoms that we do.

I am making this post because earlier today when I switched to my little "Marky" and he was very scared and struggled to even finish the post that I first started before I switched at the beginning, and trying to use all those "Grounding Techniques" and how useless they were and the brain scans that Dr Bessel Van der Kolk showed in his lecture explains why I feel.

An example of what I mean by "Useless" when using "Grounding" aka "Mindfulness" Techniques, is that while my 4 or 5 year old "self" is fronting and my "big Me" is trying to coach him through it distantly as is often the case, we experience a "4 year old" boy who is very triggered with very little to work with "Noticing" colors, the chair he is sitting on, time period and year it is currently (May of 2018), feeling a body that is too big for his identity, confusion that he "Knows" that he will be turning age 50 in a few weeks and yet feels much more like it "should be" his 5th "Birfday", etc. He can count all of the different colors, shapes, sounds, smells, sensations he wants (and he does) and yet is not only adding to his confusion about his "Identity" it actually seems to create even more "Dissociation" now because is more "Grounded" in a 4-5 year old self than the one of his "Big Me" host. Confirming a split even harder than it was before and I would even suggest exasperating it more.

When in sessions with different ignorant Therapists who notice my severe state of depersonalization, ask me to use "Mindfulness" or "Grounding Techniques" to try and return to "MY" Body. For a "singlet" that would make perfect sense right? But for myself when chaos erupts internally over such a complicated question like that and I sincerely am even more confused and triggered by realizing just what is being asked of "Us", and I honestly have to ask them "Who are you asking right now to return to that body?". The look on their face reflects the same confusion I am experiencing and they sometimes become hostile for a lack of knowing how to even answer that complex question. The same thing happens when they ask me to be "Mindful" or "Grounded". Again "Who would you like to be "Mindful" or Grounded" at this moment?".

This is not a argument in semantics or splitting hairs, but truly an experiential one.

As the brain scans clearly show, the areas in the brain to make it even possible are knocked offline and is not possible to be "present" in the "Mindfulness" aspect.

To quote Dr Bessel Van der Kolk (Key player for getting PTSD on the books as well as world recognized pioneer on complex Trauma as well as author of best seller "The Body Keeps The Score") from the piece I listed at 51:45 when asked the question...

"How is Dissociation different from Depersonalization. And what are coping strategies for dealing with them?"...



pointing to brain scans he has up on the screen...

"If you put people in a scanner, most of us, and you just lie there and you don't have anything else to do, you basically, just think about your self and experience your self. So you are just left with your self, and that's called the "default state network of the brain".

The structures involved with that are the Prefrontal Cortex, Medial Prefrontal Cortex, Anterior Cingulet. It's the part of your self that let's you experience your self and know your self.

In the back you have your Perital Cortex that allows you to feel sensations in your body. The Insula, that tells you the state of your body. The Posterior Cingulet that tells you where your body is. So that's the normal self registration of the brain.

So, here comes a scan of 18 people who are in a dissociative state, chronically. That's what their brain looks like..."

(Shows the brain scan of being in a dissociative state)

..."All the structures in the brain involved with "Self", are knocked out. Knowing your self. Articulating your self. Identifying as your self. Saying what you feel. Your Insula, that tells you what your body needs, what your body wants, knocked out. Your Perital Cortex, largely knocked out. A little bit of Posterior Cingulate left that allows you to move from one room to the next.

So this is a brain that is dissociated. Out of it. And so when you see that in a brain, the idea of that you can do cognitive treatment with it, is ludicrous!

It has to do with a body that doesn't know it's self. That it doesn't experience it's self."

At various parts of this lecture alone, he goes into particular detail using different imaging techniques like MRIs or EEG etc to show how trauma is knocking critical cognitive functioning off line on a neurological level.

A bit earlier (45:58) while showing EEG brain waves between "Non Traumatized Populations" versus "Traumatized Populations" (in this case study on PTSD) Cognitive areas of the brain are wiped out.

In response to this he says...

"It's interesting that in our field, "Cognitive Treatment" has become so prominent for treatment for traumatized people. Which makes a lot of sense for people who are not traumatized. But if you've learned anything about trauma, trauma wipes out your cognition! So you need to do something else before you hope to do anything cognitive."

I have to run to town for a sudden emergency so will leave it at that for now.

I hope this has been helpful for understanding not only why I am stating what I am about "Cognitive Behavior Therapies" such as "Dialectic Behavioral Therapy" (DBT), Mindfulness practices that "DBT" has made so popular, but also what is really happening on a Neurological level as well with populations like ourselves.

Sincerly
Lumpy

Excellent observation! I don't know what else to say. Thank you.

Nice, Lumpy, reading that tomorrow again. I maybe recognize something as well; the thick, nasty, scary fog right before BAM, being where you want to be and maybe even a step further again. This must be a comfort to marky:) (truelly hope I'm not messing things up here. If I am, sorry )

Thanks for sharing this Lumpy, fascinatating read!

Violets

FYI I love your posts. They are so wonderfully researched.

I found this absolutely the case. In many instances, I tried to logic myself out of things. I tried to CBT myself out of my anxiety that was triggered by past trauma, for instance. It didn't work. I had to come at things from a more basic level - I had to evoke real emotion and empathy for myself. What ended up happening was one particular alter developed with a strong ability to have courage and determination in the face of difficult materials, and then that skill slowly spread throughout parts of my system, and with these alters going around and being able to actually love and care about and defend parts was extremely healing. One particular alter was good about stepping into flashbacks with other alters. "I will feel this so that for once you may not have to." Just the fact that someone, even if it was just myself, would do that is something that has evoked absolute shock from many different alters. There's this heartbreaking moment of surprise at being cared about that still gets me sometimes. But yeah - logic was helpful for the basics, but deep and meaningful healing here came from a very different set of techniques. I also found that to process a trauma, even if I couldn't remember the actual encoding episode very clearly, I had to step full on into the stream of hard emotions. I had to experience and accept the utter ways in which I have been hurt. I had to feel it, process it, live in that reality for a moment... And then after I can truly accept that emotion, I never have a flashback over it again. The behaviors related to it suddenly fall back into my control.

I found grounding techniques extremely unhelpful, even when I tried doing them multiple times a day. Because I still have so much dissonance inside, the only thing that helped was;..processing that dissonance. I just automatically redissociate (if I ever undissociate even a little bit) when I do grounding techniques.

I'm at the point where my next step in healing is the interpersonal stuff. I've had many friends over the years but very few people I truly trust. So... working on trust, interpersonal boundaries, and romantic issues when that becomes appropriate are my main things remaining that I can't really handle alone. I also need to work on reconnecting with the physical (basically reducing derealization specifically) - I am still very much detached and in my own head, and at the most basic level just not really present in my own body.

Thank you!
I tried to explain to my psychologist that, no, I cannot use mindfulness when I am dissociating, but I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm being difficult on purpose.

An example from the different point of view.

So in our example we have a dog, who had traumatic situation with another dog, when he was a puppy. When he was a puppy, he used to be submissive to other dogs after what happened, and owners didn't understand he was actually scared, not just friendly with them, because he could get along with them just fine, showing all his signals not being danger to anyone. So nothing was done to the problem back then.

He grew up and there comes the puberty. He has lot more testosterone and self confidence and because he is scared at other dogs, he doesn't want to go to those situations anymore where he needs to worry, and now he doesn't have to anymore, because he feels he can defense himself. So when other dogs try to come close, or even seeing another dog, he gets anxious the way he has since his puppyhood, but now he doesn't react with calming signals anymore, but with pure aggression.

When he's aggressive, he cannot eat. Adrenaline causes all blood available to go to muscles, and digestion doesn't work. And his focus is not in eating, but just trying to get rid of the other dog, that he feels is a danger.

But you can train that behavior away with feeding. The point is to start with so far distance between the other dog and him, that he can see the dog, but is not worried yet. Signals about a dog being worried are small and they come way before actual aggression. And when he sees the dog with calm mind, he gets a treat. It is rewarding and works like that as well. But it also causes blood to go to the digestive system. Day after day he can get closer to that other dog, without getting anxious, and in the end he can past dogs in the streets without worrying.

So the fact he cant eat when he's anxious enough, can be the reason to train his brain out of it with food. The food just need to come at the right moment, so worrying gets never rewarded. So when training a dog, you always have to not just look at the behavior, but the emotional state also, and reward only the right emotion. So no treats to barking dog even if he is sitting like told to, because he will get worse with over excitement also when it is rewarded.

This thing with food and being anxious can also explain a lot why some people sooth themselves down with food. It works in a way, but also they maybe rewarding themselves at the wrong moment, when they DO feel stressed out already and then the food helps it go away. But dogs don't feed themselves, so they can't use comfort food wrong ways (but people can reward them wrong ways!). So for them it's not harmful to train with food, as it can be with people.

I've understood that the whole point of grounding is to train it, because you cannot dissociate badly at the same time. So even when the aggressive dog can't eat when he has gone too far into his emotion, he can be trained out of the feeling with food, BECAUSE he cant eat and be anxious at the same time. If your brain cannot dissociate and be present at the same time, that is a reason to train your brain to stay present, because then you cannot dissociate. And you build it up from the easy level to the hard ones.

Also training the brain is no different from physical training, so the muscles or parts of the brain you use most, are the strongest ones. That's why staying grounded gets easier over time, your brain will grow new ways to function.

Also scared littles should not ground themselves, the "adult" should ground themself, and if there is a scared little, it's the adult's job to comfort them and except and name their feelings, like mothers should do to their children. So the adult is the one who stays there all the time grounded, and helps parts with their problems, until those problems are solved, and they don't need to hold any traumas anymore. Then they can be happy and integrate. They may not integrate with the host, they can integrate with anyone. So where used to be 10 scared littles can some day be just one happy one. Host job is love all parts until they get cured. This is what I know has been done with the lady I know whose parts were integrated.

I can think about dozen different scenarios when it can't go like that, because your system functions differently, and I do not know how it's done then. But that is like the basic simple version. So littles or any EP-type of parts should not ground, they will grow more separate if THEY do that. It's the "adult one" that is supposed to realize who he/she is, and ground him-/herself back when scared little takes over. And when the adult gets the sense of "self" back, he/she can comfort the little one.

That lady I'm talking about had just one host, herself,and she was the one who had their official name as hers and looked like their body did. But it's not that simple with many of us. Like when there's many hosts, or the internal helper is very separate with the one who mostly connects with the body etc. I don't know how you should do things then. And the point is NOT to overwhelm the host to the point of maybe splitting more, with all new responsibilities. That is why people need therapists, they can help the host, they know how to build yourself stronger before they start talking about traumas at all. So first there is that grounding thing, and when you've found the sense of self, all the little trauma holders and bigger too can start to share their stories and get help. And then there's more grounding and more traumas, until everything is cured.

I believe there has to be therapist to help the job. It can be possible to create very functional system by yourself, but you can't cure broken feelings with more broken feelings, you need to have the healthy person to do the job with you. Having greatly functioning system on your own still has parts just left there living with their traumas, and I don't think it's fair. I don't believe you can solve your traumas on your own, because you are the one with the broken mind, not the ones who can cure people.

I also think it should be the parts decision if they want to integrate or not. Trauma holders more often want to I ques? And if that was their only job, it's like finally getting rest to just melt away. But you cannot actually know it until you are in that point you could do that. And even with a lot of integration there still might be parts left who wanna stay here as themselves. But integrating doesn't mean anything is missing, it's actually the opposite. So something is finally connecting.

The lady I know who integrated VERY strongly recommends it to everyone, to integrate to the point you can. All can't all the way. She keeps telling how great feeling it is to be someone the way you have never been before. Even two parts melting together as one feels good, it's the feeling of being WHOLE. And she never new she wasn't whole, before she experienced the actual feeling herself and understood the difference. You can't know what you don't know. You can think you are whole enough when you don't know how different it actually is to be one. That is how she explained it to me.

PlanetIcarus wrote:
I believe there has to be therapist to help the job. It can be possible to create very functional system by yourself, but you can't cure broken feelings with more broken feelings, you need to have the healthy person to do the job with you. Having greatly functioning system on your own still has parts just left there living with their traumas, and I don't think it's fair. I don't believe you can solve your traumas on your own, because you are the one with the broken mind, not the who can cure people.

Hi PlanetIcarus, I respectfully disagree. Becáuse of the DID, all of us still have healthy part(s). We all wouldn't be talking on this website if we hadn't, for example.. We all also have very rational parts, who are capable of objectivity (and that's what you need to analyze the damage) and keeping a distance but empathize (just like T's do). Again; because of the DID. The way our system worked when we needed the parts, can also be of help with healing. I'm feeling very strongly about that.

Yes; not all trauma's can be solved on your own, but we can do way more by ourselves than we all think.

All us parts are the results of our past, even the healthier ones. We do have believes that are not true and we cannot see it ourself. As a system there might be a healthy version of everything, but probably isn't, and you may not be able to recognize who is the one with that healthy thing. There is no one, who has all the answers, there are many that have pieces of truth, but it's very hard to find the right pieces on your own.

The fact we do have healthy parts is the fact why we can heal, but it doesn't mean we could do it on our own.

In another trauma forum I used to go, people shared very detailed information about their therapy processes ( the fact that over time led us feel outsiders (and guilty because we have no adult in us) ) and there were SEVERAL times when someone had very clear picture in their mind how things are, and it makes perfect sense to themselves and to me when reading about it. So about the thing they need to heal. And then the therapist comes and says no. It's not your problem, your problem is that you think that it's a problem. And that belief is caused by trauma. I know within myself that we have that kind of things we usually think wrongly, but sometimes we see clearly the real problem is not the one we think it is. But I'm sure, we have A LOT more those kind of misunderstandings and believes, we cannot see ourself, because all of us believe in it.

There is a reason why those more normally functioning parts are called APPARENTLY normal. They seem normal, because they have dissociated so much. That is very far from being healthy, it is just being functional.

I'm not talking ANP's, I'm talking internal observers who often know most about the trauma's and the system and aren't overwhelmed by it because they are 'ratio'. Often the one who does the therapy (when accepted the Dx), is that one. In newer findings, T's are adviced to take those parts very seriously because they truelly know what the system needs