keep on keeping on

yes, same thing. we were always taught that I messages are used to express needs. like you only use the emotions to manipulate people into giving you what you want (family belief). really weird understanding of this. never came to our mind that it is meant to express something real from inside...
we have had people tell us a lot of You-messages. You are impossible to treat. you leave me standing here helpless because you shut me out. there is no way to get close to you. you aren't even human, you are so cold and neutral. do you even feel anything at all. you aren't normal.
so a lot of the relational messages we got, especially in the really bad clinic, where you messages that were blaming and shaming. their head T used a 'literal' I message to put even more pressure on us, saying that 'I am happy you are making good progress. I wish the team was allowed to play a role in that too.' in a very very povoking tone. like, she literally said I but it was thick with youyouyou. and the issue is one where we have an inability. it was never about unwillingsness. imagine someone only ever puts pressure on you to be different, to be open, to let people in, to let someone help you and there is nothing you want more but you just can't. its just not within your ability. and then someone tells you how they wish they could be part of your success. after 10 weeks of putting pressure on you to break through the walls. to make you react to some of their provocation. same place that told us we aren't even human. its just so utterly impossible.
what they could have said is: we feel helpless. We are trying to offer you help and it is sad for us to see that it isn't working. We don't know what else to try. We wish you could trust us more. Is there anything we can do to make it easier for you?
but that would have needed some humility. and they were utterly full of themselves.

I think we might have done something useful. We feel pretty stuck with out problem of over-control and we know that it makes our T feel stuck too. So we wrote a mock article, as if we are writing for the blog explaining things. We always feel most competent when we write as the author who knows things. Our thoughts are more structured when we do it. And we give ourselves permission to share more of our understanding. we double checked it because some of it was more useful than other bits. and we sent it to our T. big step for us. we really struggle with being so open. it ended up making sense. connecting the over-control to neglect and parentification. the big question of how to cope when your needs mean nothing to your caregivers and only get you into trouble.

'We might simply not be aware that anyone is interested in our thoughts, feelings or needs. In our world, these are the things that nobody wants to be bothered with. It's what makes other people grumpy. There is no place for that in a relationship if we want it to be peaceful. Our lesson is that nobody wants to know who we are and nobody will cherish us. There is no value in bringing 'us' into a relationship. The problem is not control, it is neglect. Control is only the attempt to make it bearable.'

I feel restless and ashamed about sending such a long article. there is also real hope that it might make a difference. that it explains something.

Wow--good job! The more you explain, the more you make it possible for the T to understand you.

And I think we have a similar dynamic. We have a lot of over-control and a history of neglect, and only ever being able to count on ourselves.

Wait - it reminds me something I took notes of not so long ago.

Liotti, 2011 : Attachment disorganization and the controlling strategies : an illustration of the
contributions of attachment theory to developmental psychopathology and to psychotherapy
integration

It is an article about how mistreatment and neglect can lead to two different controlling strategies from the part of the victim. One of them is "punishing the abuser". The other is "healing the abuser". You seem to be stuck in the second one's types of strategies.

I hope that this article will be useful for you and will lead you towards helpful ressources.

we have seen that article before. it uses the drama triangle. We struggle to see ourselves in that, mostly because of the parentification and the fact that we cut contact with family and are considered to be in the persecutor role by them. So, not a lot of caretaking to be found there.
We have learned to care-take for ourselves. That way we don't have to approach bad care-takers with our needs. it doesn't really fit the rescuer role either. We have to think about it some more

Oh, thanks for that. Based on where in "Healing the fragmented selves..." it is quoted, I thought it would be more about what you talked about.

The "drama triangle" makes me think on how some abusers place their victim in the role of persecutor and themselves as the victim, so that they can feel like they are in the right when asking a third part (or themselves) to "rescue" them by abusing the "persecutor" victim.

Dunno if I am able to explain this properly?

And by becoming the "rescuer" (caretaker, parent...) of the abuser, you pull yourself away from the role of persecutor in order to escape the "rescuing abuse" that the abusers put on you.

I have to admit too that having to be one's own caretaker is also another layer of trauma for children. When people in a position of care are automatically seen as potential threats, it is difficult to accept to be taken care of, to show vulnerability. I guess you can also stretch the "drama triangle" there: you see the care person as a "persecutor" instead of a "savior" so you try to look for a way to be "rescued" from the care person or to "rescue" yourself from them. Because there is no way you can see someone else than you in a position of "rescuing" you.

But this might be a stretch. It is my own case and I might be projecting my issues on you. Apologies if this does not help you.

looks like we did it. our T really did understand what we were trying to say concerning the control-neglect connection. that it is not a big need for autonomy. the contrary. I feel so much relief I could cry. she said it totally explains how she needs to act in response, as if it makes treatment totally clear for her. like, this was the big misunderstanding? maybe things will get better from here.
therapy feels very vulnerable right now. More than it has ever been. which tbh probably is a good thing. Asti is always glad when she can make her laugh. it just feels so much safer when she does. our mood got so much better over the last week. We remembered something from body work therapy that we used and modified and it made us feel super smart.
we need to pay attention to the effects of parentification. mainly that we often end up in role confusion and with a need to create harsh boundaries with people we perceive in the parent role. because in our trance logic they want us to take care of them. When really they are talking to the author of a well-known website. We respond with a mix of panic and rejection a LOT and they never know what hit them. it helps to know that its the same neglect pattern that causes so much shame. the exercise we use helps to sense the distance between our needs and other people's needs, so we can separate them more. Helps us to stand up for what we need and not move into appeasement or rejection right away.
good progress right now.

It really does sound like a big step in therapy. Congratulations!

It is a big relief indeed! So happy for you!

We have done more processing. this time with SE. it seemed easier because we actually don't know the memory. What we have are certain fragments of the situation. A thought, the affect, a body sensation, a movement impulse. but no picture or story. So we made use of the fact that SE has a tool that focuses on movement impulses to reduce the stress response.
she used a different tool too. When the panic got in the way she asked us to symbolize it and then move the symbol out of our body and into a corner. now we have a thing that is properly distanced and we can work on how we related to it. that was surprisingly effective. we are not used to distancing exercises being done that way. usually it is just mindfully observing or complete containment.
we moved through the stages we often experience. fear, anger, sadness. usually a sign that something is getting integrated. and today we have a bit of a fever again. I hate that our body does this. pretty much every time we process something. it is kind of cool because it shows that there is a release. it is also annoying. and I keep wanting to check for covid AGAIN, even though the test was negative and it would have been way too quick to develop symptoms. it is just so irritating because I never know if maybe something else is wrong with the body.
I think we might be able to keep this up. one processing session a month. we have a list of things we really need to process to improve our daily life. seeing our successes is very motivating.

It's so useful for us to hear about how SE works with processing. Is this with your regular T or the bodywork T?