What makes an Introject?

I have sort of a stem question...
What perhaps makes an introject the particular shape that it happens to take? In the case that it is not an abuser introject, what makes it who it is? Why was that personality introjected into the system?

I ask this because one of my fragments is an introject of Baba Yaga, the ancient mythological archetype of Russian folklore... This has really troubled me, and she seems like a pretty strong and fervent fragment to me. She does not communicate with me normally, but once when I was laying down, the first time I knew of her presence, I saw the face of an strange old woman gazing contentedly at me, and it was so real and vivid that upon opening my eyes, I still saw her for a moment...

So, mostly my question is based on this part of me.

Like with any other alter, the possibilities are endless. They take the form/shape of whatever the child imagines an alter to, wants an alter to, thinks an alter "should", etc. The development of an alter's form/shape depends on the child's imagination, and influences from movies, books, experiences, things they've learned, what they've heard/seen, etc. Sometimes, the form/shape of an alter can change, if it was not "solidly" developed at first (such as, there was an alter, but it didn't have a "solid" or specific or consistent form/shape yet, and then influences in life later on can have an effect on the alter's form/shape and how they're seen).

Hope that made sense.


-Cassandra

tomboy24 wrote:Like with any other alter, the possibilities are endless. They take the form/shape of whatever the child imagines an alter to, wants an alter to, thinks an alter "should", etc. The development of an alter's form/shape depends on the child's imagination, and influences from movies, books, experiences, things they've learned, what they've heard/seen, etc. Sometimes, the form/shape of an alter can change, if it was not "solidly" developed at first (such as, there was an alter, but it didn't have a "solid" or specific or consistent form/shape yet, and then influences in life later on can have an effect on the alter's form/shape and how they're seen).

Hope that made sense.


-Cassandra

That's an explanation of how it happens. But it doesn't really help to answer my question. I'm sure that Baba has gradually developed over time since childhood, until she could finally assume the real identity of Baba Yaga.

I understand the process of where alters come from and how their shape is taken. My question is why that particular introject. For example, there are reasons that an introject takes the shape of the abuser--I'm interested in those reasons. Why this particular introject?

Are you asking why you chose Baba? Because no one can really answer that for you... That's something you're going to have to learn/find out on your own, over time...

The common reasons for alters to have the form/shape that they do is 1) the child thinks it's appropriate, 2) the child makes some connection between the influence and the alter (either in looks, behaviour, speaking manners, similarities, symbolism, etc), 3) there's something about the form that expresses how the child sees the abuser, and if there was more, I just lost my train of thought, sorry.


-Cassandra

tomboy24 wrote:Are you asking why you chose Baba? Because no one can really answer that for you... That's something you're going to have to learn/find out on your own, over time...

The common reasons for alters to have the form/shape that they do is 1) the child thinks it's appropriate, 2) the child makes some connection between the influence and the alter (either in looks, behaviour, speaking manners, similarities, symbolism, etc), 3) there's something about the form that expresses how the child sees the abuser, and if there was more, I just lost my train of thought, sorry.


-Cassandra

I didn't choose Baba Yaga, it just developed into her over time and then she appeared to me. Those three reasons are all almost the same thing.
I don't want someone to answer why it's her for me, I'm looking for help in finding the answer. For example, do you have an introject? If so, have you understood or tried to understand why they are the particular introject that they are? Is there anything that you understand about that/those introjects? These are things that would be helpful to finding my answer.

Quantum wrote: For example, do you have an introject?

Yes. Possibly more than one.

Quantum wrote:If so, have you understood or tried to understand why they are the particular introject that they are?

Yes.
The introject for sure that I have seems to be just like my father, including looking similar to him, except they're suspected to be female, but that's it.
I suspect they're like my father because, well, my father was my "main" abuser.

The other one, that we're not sure if he's an introject or not yet, is more like "Hannibal "The Cannibal" Lecter" from the Silence of the Lambs/Lecter movie series with Anthony Hopkins. Although we didn't really "model" him after that character. We didn't know about the Lecter movies until like, 2-ish years ago, and when we were watching it, we were like, "That way of speaking sounds eerily familiar... And his behaviours look eerily familiar...", and then that's when we started calling the unknown abusive alter "Hannibal" since he has yet to give a name for himself and reminded us so much of the Hannibal Lecter from the movies (actually, the movies reminded us of him, if you want to be correct in the sense of timeline order). So, I don't think he was really "modeled" after Lecter, I think it was just a coincidence that we found a movie character that was so similar to him, since I didn't know anything about the Lecter movies (much less the name of the main character, Lecter) until 2-ish years ago, and this alter/possible introject has been around long before then.

Quantum wrote:Is there anything that you understand about that/those introjects? These are things that would be helpful to finding my answer.

In what sense? Do you mean purpose? Why they look the way they do? Why they are there?

Since I'm not really good at grasping what people are looking for, I'm just going to post the information I have written out on both of these alters.


"Big Ryan", ?
Role: Abuser Introject, Denial Holder/Keeper
Type: Unknown
Believed to have “as an alter”: Denial, ?
Takes after the father, including in speaking mannerisms, behavioural mannerisms, seemingly beliefs so far, possibly even thinking some of the father’s memories are their own, and even looks similar to the father (having dark skin, dark eyes, and dark hair, whereas the/our real body looks more similar to the mother).
So far can only seem to be mainly heard by Cassandra, unless "with"/around others inside the inner world (if we can see them, we can hear them, otherwise only Cassandra seems to be able to hear them for the most part).


"Hannibal", ?
Role: Abuser-Protector
Type: Seems to be an ANP with EP tendencies
Believed to have "as an alter": Extreme Anger Management Issues
Is a self-destructive, self-punishing alter. Does not consider himself to be a part of us. Has never given a name for himself. Very manipulative, persuasive, violent, cruel, abusive, controlling, apathetic to the well-being of the other alters. Enjoys self-mutilation, but since he does not see himself as part of the system he does not see it as "self" mutilation. His voice is not always heard and his presence is not always there or detected. Seemingly emotionless, has an even/monotone voice. Mainly abusive to Kat; his abuse is what helped her to turn angry and abusive towards Cassandra and the other alters. His actions were done out of love for Kat and out of a desire to make her invincible and strong. Prefers using others to do his bidding. Nicknamed "Hannibal" for the violent and destructive behaviour mirrored in the movies with "Hannibal 'The Cannibal' Lecter". Instead of inflicting harm upon others, he inflicts harm upon the "host" and other personalities, who he views as "others" that are separate from himself.

Age unknown, most likely older than Kat but possibly has not been "around" as long as she has. (I've heard Kat's voice as long as I can remember, his first noticeable appearance through abusing Kat was when I was 13 years old. I did not hear his voice until I was 16/17 years old).


-Cassandra

Snuffthroostr wrote:Don't want to hijack but I have a question.

Would an introject be the reason I sometimes suddenly realize I am sitting EXACTLY like my father did when I was a kid? Smoking in the same manner. Staring uncontrollably at another woman's butt. It's kinda like something snaps and I realize I am doing it.....it is not like on tv when the main character suddenly says "oh god I am becoming my father/mother". It's deeper than that.....I don't know how to explain it. Almost like "waking up" without ever having gone to sleep. Or I will almost hear my mother's voice coming out of my mouth.....while I have her facial mannerisms. Are these just conscious alters or introjects or is it more likely a matter of "you really do grow up to be just like your parents"?

While no one here can say for certain, it is definitely possible.
This kind of situation can get tricky, because when you spend so much time around certain people, especially during childhood, you're bound to pick up certain traits from them. Almost everyone picks up certain behaviours from their parents/guardians, and many stay with us through our entire lives. It's sometimes hard to know where the behaviours we picked up end, and where (if) the introjects begin.
It's something you will probably want to look further into in the future.

Quantum wrote:she seems like a pretty strong and fervent fragment to me.

You may have your answer right there.
I don't know anything about Russian folklore, but often alters will take on traits/qualities of other people (I say people, but really anything) that they find useful, so if Baba Yaga is a strong individual, that could explain why they chose to "become" her.

Was Baba or Russian folklore in general a big influence in your childhood?

A few reasons I can think for an (non-abusive) introject to develop:
-because they (3D person) have certain traits/qualities that someone in the system can relate to, or traits/qualities that they wish they had/find useful
-because someone in the system feel a certain connection with the 3D person/character, for whatever reason
-because someone in the system has a desire to be that 3D person (as Cassandra said, alters can change shape/form so it's possible someone just decided the 3D person was a good/"better" person to be)
-because the 3D person had a big influence on your life, especially during childhood years

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons that introjects develop/exist in the system (obviously there are abuser introjects, but their reasons for existing are usually very different to those above). This is another of those things that will be different for every person.

I know of two introjects in our system, both abusers. There may be more, but who knows. I believe they were "created" to keep our system in line/on alert. As long as there was always abuse, we were always scared, and very unlikely to tell. *shrugs* There's probably more reasons than that, but I haven't explored a lot. I would prefer to pretend they don't exist, tbh.

I do know that at least one member here has introjects of non-abusers, so maybe they can shed a bit more light on why they believe their introjects exist.
Sorry I couldn't be of much help.

I'm sorry I didn't read every single post, but I believe an introject can also be just a representation of someone else--not necessarily the r

Not bads. Not all bads promis. just pepl we no. or book pepl. mm lik dragun! hes gud. but book gy.

Sorry about that.. Um, I think Ellie was trying to say, introjects don't have to be just the abusers, they can also be people you know, like friends, or an important figure from your life, or also fictional characters from books and such.

ACrazyBunch wrote:

Quantum wrote:she seems like a pretty strong and fervent fragment to me.

You may have your answer right there.
I don't know anything about Russian folklore, but often alters will take on traits/qualities of other people (I say people, but really anything) that they find useful, so if Baba Yaga is a strong individual, that could explain why they chose to "become" her.

Was Baba or Russian folklore in general a big influence in your childhood?

Slavic folklore was heavily influential on all of Europe, and most "fairy tales" have their origins from it. Baba Yaga is the traditional "old hag witch" of fairy tales. She represented magic, the spirit world, and winter. Sometimes she was wicked, as in eating children, and sometimes she was helpful through guidance to some hero. In one story there are three Baba Yaga sisters.

In Russian tales, Baba Yaga is portrayed as a hag who flies through the air in a mortar, using the pestle as a rudder and sweeping away the tracks behind her with a broom made out of silver birch. She lives in a log cabin that moves around on a pair of dancing chicken legs. The keyhole to her front door is a mouth filled with sharp teeth; the fence outside is made with human bones with skulls on top—often with one pole lacking its skull, leaving a place where she can threaten to place the hero's skull after eating them. In another legend, the house does not reveal the door until it is told a magical phrase, "Turn your back to the forest, your front to me."

When I say that this alter is Baba Yaga, I mean that only in as literal a way as it can be said. She is mythical. It would be the same as having a Cinderella part, although Baba Yaga is endlessly more meaningful of a character. In different stories the same name is used to represent characters that may be similar but not the same person. She is called Baba Yaga because the name applies to her. It's difficult to explain to anyone who is not familiar with her mythologically.

She definitely wasn't a big influence on my childhood, no, but my family has Slavic heritage, so we knew about her. And my grandmother used to tell my sister that she lived out in the woods. I would say the only time I was exposed to that witch-archetypal material was in my early, early childhood, before 5 years. On the other hand, this alter didn't take the shape of Baba Yaga until well after I had studied her mythology. Sometimes my sister and I would talk about a story or something with Baba Yaga in it. Also, when I read Enchantment by Orson Scott Card, I felt a deep connection with Baba Yaga. I also had an incredibly vivid dream once where me and my friends escaped from Yaga's clutches in a flying machine. My sister also had a dream with Yaga in it but it was like a school ghost-story/love story/fairy tale.

A few reasons I can think for an (non-abusive) introject to develop:
-because they (3D person) have certain traits/qualities that someone in the system can relate to, or traits/qualities that they wish they had/find useful

I can see how innate magic and mythic wisdom and aloofness from the human world could be found useful to an alter... But I don't know why it would be useful to her. In other words, what she can and does do with her aspect.

[/quote]-because someone in the system feel a certain connection with the 3D person/character, for whatever reason[/quote]
What is the difference between this reason and the former?

-because someone in the system has a desire to be that 3D person (as Cassandra said, alters can change shape/form so it's possible someone just decided the 3D person was a good/"better" person to be)

I've never heard of any part changing it's identity at will, but I suppose anyone can change their identity to something they see fits them. Not anymore than a host could change his identity though--still pertaining the same personality at heart.

I do know that at least one member here has introjects of non-abusers, so maybe they can shed a bit more light on why they believe their introjects exist.
Sorry I couldn't be of much help.

What member is this?

Mae the First wrote:I'm sorry I didn't read every single post, but I believe an introject can also be just a representation of someone else--not necessarily the r

Not bads. Not all bads promis. just pepl we no. or book pepl. mm lik dragun! hes gud. but book gy.

Sorry about that.. Um, I think Ellie was trying to say, introjects don't have to be just the abusers, they can also be people you know, like friends, or an important figure from your life, or also fictional characters from books and such.

Hi Ellie
We know you're not bad. None of you are bad. Even abuser introjects aren't really bad, they just sometimes do bad things, because they don't know better. Lots of introjects are of friendly, caring people, or as you said, book people. Lots of people with DID have introject alters that are people from their life, or people from movies and books.

Elyse, while it has been mentioned in this thread that introjects don't have to be of abusers, it's always good for people to be reminded of this. Lots of the things we have read about introjects neglect to mention this, and so people get confused as to what an introject actually is. But as you said, they can be of anyone. The link we posted in our second reply does make a mention of it, however, which is why we chose that particular page to share.

Quantum wrote:I can see how innate magic and mythic wisdom and aloofness from the human world could be found useful to an alter... But I don't know why it would be useful to her. In other words, what she can and does do with her aspect.

Unfortunately, I can't be a lot of help with that one. I would assume she would have her reasons, but I think only she can really tell you what they are. These things can be hard to figure out, because it's not always a simple answer, and it's not always logical to an adult mind, but will be to her. It could be as simple as those things are useful to her in the inside world, where anything and everything is possible.

Quantum wrote:What is the difference between this reason and the former?

Well mainly that the person they feel a connection with, doesn't necessarily have to have qualities/traits they (alter) wants, it's just someone they connect to. They can feel a connection because of similar experiences, similar goals, etc.
For example, the movie Matilda. As a kid, some of us felt a massive connection to the character Matilda, because she was an outcast in her family, she was unwanted, unloved, etc. We felt a connection to her because it was the same for us in our family. It wasn't so much Matilda's personality that we connected with, but rather her life situation that we could relate to.
Does that sort of help? (Sorry if it doesn't, things are getting a bit switchy here.)

Quantum wrote:I've never heard of any part changing it's identity at will, but I suppose anyone can change their identity to something they see fits them. Not anymore than a host could change his identity though--still pertaining the same personality at heart.

Kind of. It wasn't so much identity/personality that I meant, because like you said, for the most part, people's personality doesn't change a whole lot. I do think they can change, but the general aspects of their personality will still be the same. The shape/form an alter takes, however, can definitely change. I would assume that the alter who later became Baba Yaga had some personality traits that matched with what they knew of her, so it wasn't a huge stretch for them to then take on that form. (I hope that makes sense, and it's just a jumbled bunch of words).

Quantum wrote:What member is this?

Well from Mae the First/Elyse/Ellie's reply, it seems they have introject alters who aren't of abusers, and I shall PM you the other (not that I think she'll mind me posting it, but just because I don't know for sure that it's okay).