Round Two

I'm a little fuzzy on the details, so I may be missing some really important parts of this discussion...

First off, I think that frosty has the right to be here, the same as everyone else does. All I think I'd ask is that this remain respectful. On BOTH sides. I know this can be difficult, especially when emotions are running high and that phrasing can be difficult at the best of times. But I think we can do it.

That being said, I think frosty is coming at this forum from a place of concern - of wanting to help everyone heal/integrate. I think frosty sees where we are at now as where he/she was before and did not find that place to be healing in the long run. frosty has the right to frosty's own perspective, just as everyone else does.

I agree with everyone that I find what we do here to be useful in many ways. But I don't think that's the only way to heal, and I am curious as to frosty's perspective on healing/integration. frosty doesn't seem like frosty wants to talk about it, but I am curious to hear what frosty has to say on the topic.

Sorry - double post.

So, as I understand it, the reason you dislike the coloring is because it would encourage separation? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Well, I've had the same feeling at start. I just wasn't sure whether I should continue. But, I've come to realize, yes, it may encourage separation, but at the same time, it actually helps sorting stuff out. For me, my preferred end goal would be integration. Because I really miss all the parts of me that have been hidden for so long. I want to acquire their abilities, and I know they won't be complete without me. To do that, things need to be sorted out first. Probably some things need to be processed. Yes, we were sort of 'integrated', but that was more like ducktaping it together. Now is the time for properly healing. And for that, the old tapes have to be removed first. (At least, that's how I picture it.)

ƒrosty wrote:The only thing anyone is ever trying to achieve is a pleasure response, whether directly or through the virtue of sacrifice. It's the kind of question BS was made for, and I don't abide.

Are you saying the only reason you're here is for some sort of pleasure? I'd expect your level of thinking was higher than that. While it may be true for everyone, it's just not the point. Humans don't just live on animalistic instincts. I, indeed, would expect you could explain why you are here. I could explain mine, if you wish.
Sorry frosty, but I start to get a bit annoyed, honestly. Can't you see the whole picture? Why are you surprised your comments are not just accepted when you are one person and new here? You would have to be really convincing before any established practices change. That's the way communities work.

ƒrosty wrote:The only thing anyone is ever trying to achieve is a pleasure response, whether directly or through the virtue of sacrifice.

That's a rather cynical view I think. I notice you neatly still avoided the question. There must be some reason why you are visiting the DID forum "trying to achieve is a pleasure response, whether directly or through the virtue of sacrifice" as opposed to some other place. What more specifically than "trying to achieve is a pleasure response, whether directly or through the virtue of sacrifice" are you hoping for here? There must be some action or response you are hoping for here that you think will "achieve is a pleasure response, whether directly or through the virtue of sacrifice" for you.

ƒrosty wrote:Just accept that someone dissented against your opinion.

You ask as to accept your dissented opinion but you won't "just accept" a bunch of people here that hold a different view to you. I think it's reasonable to challenge another person's view if they disagree, partly to see if in justifying their opinion they shed light on something other's have previously not thought of.

People don't move their opinions without good reason. Other than your personal experience, you haven't given any actual evidence to back up why it would be more therapeutic to do things without acknowledging separate parts through colours. This means it's just your personal experience pitted against everyone else's personal experience as individuals here and I think it's safe to say that most have tried your way of doing things and not separately acknowledging the parts in ways like coloured writing and didn't find it helpful. I think those of us with therapists encourage acknowledgement of the other parts in various ways like this too. I think oaktree is right that you would have to be really convincing before any established practices change. I'm starting to think that maybe this takes more than just your opinion on what you found helpful to yourself when what we found helpful to ourselves was different to you and also encouraged by our therapists who provide an outside and objective view on what is helpful to their DID patients.

ƒrosty wrote:It's like I'm communicating with a bunch of technicolor brick walls.

Actually no, you're communicating with a bunch of people who for once in their lives will not be made to feel like they are living wrong, or being stupid, or selfish, or letting anyone stand on our opinions like they own the right to squash them. You're communicating with a bunch of people who will not let anyone else dictate how they live anymore. You're communicating with a bunch of people who have to deal with a diagnosis that is for the most part ignored and disbelieved in society today. You are communicating with a bunch of people who have to come online here to be truly understood and heard. You are communicating with a bunch of people who will stand up for what they believe in, finally, because they know they have the right to life and they know absolutely no one has the right to judge them on their journey, repeatedly. You're dealing with a bunch of people who have had a lifetime of not being accepted and will stand up to people who will not accept them for who they are now until they are blue in the face. You're dealing with a bunch of people who finally have the confidence to look at ignorant people in the eyes and tell them that they are not invited to comment and judge on their life anymore.

Honestly I think you're getting all snippy because no one will agree with you. Jo even tried consenting that things could be better and you wouldn't even acknowledge someone that could become the ally. You WANT to be singled out. Trust me, I know the tactic, I used to do it about s.ex. But you just can't handle a debate so you're resorting to repeating yourself and saying things like this:

frosty wrote:It's like I'm communicating with a bunch of technicolor brick walls.

Well, guess what, most of the people on here won't play your game. And I? I like my color, took me like two months to figure out what shade of pink I wanted.

Better step your game up, because your not looking so good.

~ Rachelle

michiru wrote:I agree with everyone that I find what we do here to be useful in many ways. But I don't think that's the only way to heal, and I am curious as to frosty's perspective on healing/integration. frosty doesn't seem like frosty wants to talk about it, but I am curious to hear what frosty has to say on the topic.

(He, btw)

oaktree wrote:So, as I understand it, the reason you dislike the coloring is because it would encourage separation?

I've been dancing around it... but I'll be straight. I think it's juvenile and silly, but I'm not going to condemn it. Please proceed. If I feel the need to designate something I say as one of my own (which has already been the case, on more than several occasions), then I'll make a notation at the beginning and end. That's my preference. That's all.

Well, I've had the same feeling at start. I just wasn't sure whether I should continue.[...etc]

I like how you think about what you're doing and the approach you're taking to it, just not what you're doing.

Are you saying the only reason you're here is for some sort of pleasure? I'd expect your level of thinking was higher than that.

This is just funny. Being a cynic means I have lowly thinking?

While it may be true for everyone, it's just not the point. Humans don't just live on animalistic instincts.

To paraphrase, man is just another animal; sometimes better, often worse, than those who walk on all fours, who, because of his 'intellectual enlightenment', has become the most vicious animal of all! The structure of the human brain only has so many advantages... motivation all comes from the same place, no matter what. All this, however, is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If anyone would like to talk with me about the significance of mankind, my PM inbox is open.

I, indeed, would expect you could explain why you are here.

I already have. What I could do is describe the events that led up to my joining this forum, but I have a ways to go with you all before I trust anyone here with anything.

Can't you see the whole picture? Why are you surprised your comments are not just accepted when you are one person and new here? You would have to be really convincing before any established practices change.

I wish you all could hear the vile rage in my head. Capslock for noticability.

I DO NOT INTEND TO CHANGE ANYTHING.
I MADE A COMMENT IN TOMBOY'S THREAD THAT WAS POORLY RECEIVED.
I MADE THIS THREAD TO EXPLAIN MY POSITION.
I FEEL AS THOUGH MY POSITION HAS BEEN EXPLAINED.
I AM CONTENT TO DISAGREE WITH YOU ALL AND CONTINUE TO POST HERE WITH CIVILITY AND WITHOUT ALL THIS CHILDISH BICKERING.

The other three posts by salted, bourbon, and wronglesson are all addressed by the above comment.

spanky_spee wrote:OkAY just asking so practically i think he is saying that the DID forum is a bunch of people. who use DID to express there other issues and be apart of some kind of melodramatic drama.
But I will say its seems he did back down from one of his points when his flaw was pointed out.
I'm not attacking I'm just trying to get things clear.

He was not referring to the forum as a whole, but rather to some of the practices that some people may or may not encourage.

tomboy wrote:OK I AM MAD.

No one said you are mad, Frosty especially did not even imply it, and here you are saying that. That's what a child does, without reason, just for his own defense.

We're not sure what you're trying to gain, here, by simply saying over and over that you supposedly understand and "get it", but you just disagree. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really care that you disagree. That's your right, that's your choice. Disagree all you want. But you can disagree without being insulting.

I don't see where he is being insulting, in fact his incentive always seems to be one of helpfulness to me. I see two perspective arguments in this thread and in general, where one said seems to be overly defensive and less argumentative. If you don't want to argue with his perspective, because you don't understand it, then you don't have to argue.

It is not insulting for someone to consistently question another's methods. It's scientific to question, it's reasonable. He goal is not to argue and argue until someone admits that their method or methods are silly and unhelpful. He wants to DISCUSS why they are unhelpful or helpful to find a middle ground where EVERYONE will benefit.

I often find myself getting no help from posting threads on this forum because I don't and cannot respond to some of the methods and ways of thinking that the popular posters like to use themselves. I'd like to benefit from this forum, so I appreciate everyone's opinion, including Frosty's, and the fact is that even small amounts of his insight has helped me much more than other methods have.

ƒrosty wrote:Why is it so binary? Think grey area. Between us there is compromise. I had a dissenting opinion... It doesn't mean I'm staging a coup.

For some reason, a lot of members have assumed that's what you're trying to do, and have proceeded to defend the integrity of the entire forum... It's a mystery.

-- Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:41 am --

spanky_spee wrote:excuse me if I cause any offence to any y'll frosty to me it seems like you're one oh those people who knows a few fancy words and fancy things going around chasing ducks even though it just human thing.

... What is a fancy word? I hate it when people say "that's just a fancy word." It's not a fancy word, it has a more precise meaning that rudimentary words. Just because it is larger or more difficult to spell does not make it "fancy." I appreciate technical, precise, and elaborate wording because it helps to clarify the point that is being made, and makes communication between parties more specific and with less confusion.

you're like the kid who joins a club just to destroy the club because it ain't up to you're standard.

lol In what way has he tried to destroy this forum or it's community? You treat him like he is a computer virus! Adult words and conservative opinions do make someone destructive.

On the other hand, it is clear that he is suggesting that destructing or at least deconstructing certain methods, such as "alter color-texting healing" could--COULD actually be more helpful in learning about your personality as a whole, rather than inflating each part of yourself and coloring them, and covering them up in as many traits and mannerisms as you possibly can for the sake of communication, or for some people, for the sake of self-indulgence of their own personality. If a mentally ill SINGLETON were to inflate their own personality and cover it with as much specialness and in some cases fantasy, it would be unhelpful for them too, and we would call it EGOTISM, but for us MULTIPLES, it might be unhelpful to a FAR WORSE degree.

If people would stop being so defensive about something that cannot even be damaged because it's VIRTUAL, then you might actually begin to understand what Frosty is trying to explain. The reason he can't explain his perspective more fluently is because there is so much opposition to A SIMPLE DISAGREEMENT. It's called peeling the onion folks--there are layers to learning.

Most of you insist on labeling Frosty in some way or the other, and when he doesn't back into a corner for you by giving you ANSWERS THAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, you call him judgmental or destructive or fancy, or just plain RUDE. Maybe if you were to reread this thread, you'd see that there are a lot of rude comments and accusations being said, but they're not coming from FROSTY--rather they are directed TOWARD HIM.

Quantum, please don't scream at the forum. That's not appropriate. Your post here adds little to the discussion other than to defend frosty. I'd remind you and others to please stick to discussing the actual topic at hand (DID and dealing with it) or this thread with be locked. This is not the "defend or attack frosty or other members thread".

salted lipstick wrote:Quantum, please don't scream at the forum. That's not appropriate. Your post here adds little to the discussion other than to defend frosty. I'd remind you and others to please stick to discussing the actual topic at hand (DID and dealing with it) or this thread with be locked. This is not the "defend or attack frosty or other members thread".

I sincerely apologize. I didn't intend to make it seem like I was yelling. Rather than defending Frosty, my intention was to explain some of his posting. I was merely trying to support his opinion by clarifying what I've read being discussed in this thread so far, and it was my response to the gist of what was being said which is primarily not topical, but attack-defensive. The only reason I enlarged the last segment of my post was to emphasize it's importance. But I see that it wasn't necessary after I separated it into a second post. It wasn't an attempt to express shouting or anger.

My goal was actually to help diffuse or nullify the attack-defense behavior of this thread so that it would be easier for there to be discussion which would actually lead somewhere. Not to defend anyone, but only for the reason that I want this thread to go somewhere, because I think the main focus of it is how much helpfulness is encouraged and or downplayed in this forum. As with most others, this forum is one of my only venues of help, and I struggle a lot with my disease.

The opportunity for there to be a general expansion of latitude in the way posters treat their issues and problems--but more importantly those of others--and some more technical basing as opposed to "whatever jargon happens to sound the most helpful" in general, is an important opportunity to me and to my experience and help in the forum. And actually, I think that a lot more "lurkers" would come into posting and benefit from that if this were to be achieved.

That does not mean I'm attacking the people who have misspoke against Frosty, nor does it mean that I am defending Frosty from them since he does that very well on his own as we can witness from this thread. I was merely attempting to clarify and emphasize that real issue at hand is being mutilated and displaced by fighting (literally; attacking and defending).

That might not have been the topic, but that's what it was governed by, and I was trying to end that. I can be way too blunt and forthcoming. I'm sorry if I mislead anyone, or forbiddingly made the derailing WORSE. *shame*

It may have seemed like I was defending Frosty for the simple reason that I was pointing out how he was being attacked. In the future, I won't emphasize my point. To compensate, I'd like to reiterate my opinion on the topic in response to whoever decides to reply. That is, if this thread can still be productive in some way. Because contrary to popular belief here--and this is just an observation of the past 4 pages--Frosty was trying to be productive and helpful by establishing some middle ground between his views, and the popular paradigm of the forum.

A paradigm which seems rigid in its view that DID is whatever you make of it, and as long as you remain completely independent and self-oriented in your opinions, your own healing and your advice in the healing of others is accurate and is the most helpful, and the most insightful. Admittedly, this is a strong and community-bonding belief, but as Frosty has obviously noticed, it might be detrimental in some ways to healing, and counter-active to PROGRESSIVELY helping others in the forum. From my perspective, this seems to be the root of this topic, which unfortunately is complicated by the fact that it stems into several different related aspects, including alters color-texting and some roleplaying tendencies that do take place, regardless of their therapeutic intentions.

Are these aspects wrong? Not saying that.
Should they be discussed because they have bearing on the popular forceful aim around the forum? I think so, and perhaps this is what Frosty is driving at.
There is no reason to attack someone who is trying to have an open discussion. From what I've seen, many responses were aimed, not toward an open discussion of the topic, but rather to closing it further and further until Frosty could no longer make any point at all.

I don't want the discussion to be forced into a pinhole just because so many people disagree with one person, and so few people understand what he is trying to discuss repeatedly, only because that person the discussion is being contorted, confused, and derailed by misconception and aversion to "different opinions" and "mere possibility of change in thinking."

In my book, differing perspectives are very valuable. Especially on the subject of DID.

~DR.