Is there such a thing as splitting?

Split from another thread:
dissociative-identity/topic101752.html

[b]Here is my understanding on splitting:
First let me address the idea of splitting - We do not split. All humans begin life as a bunch of neurons and when one has DID, those do not integrate due to trauma. So we do not split. It is just the opposite - which is what the top experts that research and write on DID try to get people to understand, but that old notion is so ingrained! It's hard for people to let go of it. Behavioral states of an infant will begin to integrate, these will form ego states or personality parts. If you have DID - you will have alters because the parts did not integrate. They are isolated from the other parts. Make sense?

Postby lifelongthing » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:53 am

If you have DID - you will have alters because the parts did not integrate. They are isolated from the other parts. Make sense?


Well.. Yes and no. Could you explain a bit further? What do you then call it for when we split (or what have you) later in life? That ego state was not there from the beginning or they would have memories from before that set age when they were needed, right? I'm not trying to discuss here - just trying to understand

Sorry but I'm still not getting it?

Patience my dear Patowan! This is a complicated subject!



First to get a background on this, I am going to ask that people either read this page
http://www.dissociative-identity-disord ... model.html

Or read the pertinent parts of the 2011 ISSTD Treatment Guidelines. The above page is a summary of the section of the 2011 ISSTD guidelines.
Full PDF online for free
http://www.isst-d.org/jtd/GUIDELINES_REVISED2011.pdf

3 Expert Concentric Models of DID Etiology.
International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. (2011). [Chu J. A, Dell P. F, van der Hart O, Cardeña E, Barach P. M, Somer E, Loewenstein R. J, Brand B, Golston, J. C, Courtois C. A, Bowman E. S, Classen C, Dorahy M, Sar V,Gelinas J, Fine C.G ,Paulsen S., Kluft R. P, Dalenberg C. J, Jacobson-Levy M, Nijenhuis E, Boon S, Chefetz R, Middleton W, Ross C. A, Howell E, Goodwin G, Coons P. M, Frankel A. S, Steele K, Gold S. N, Gast U., Young L. M, Twombly J.]. Guidelines for treating dissociative identity disorder in adults, third revision. Journal of Trauma & Dissociation, 12, 115–187.

Serious mode activated!

From how I understand it, and to put it simply, we all start out with alters, basically. Everyone starts out with many sides/parts to their personality, and then if allowed to develop correctly and uninterrupted by trauma that's not healed, their personality melds, refines itself, and is molded into one whole personality.

Think of it this way: To make a cake, you need ingredients that get mixed together, right? Several separate ingredients that create one whole cake. Well, to develop one whole personality, you also need ingredients mixed together (all the sides/parts/possibilities of a personality). We all start out with separate ingredients that, through growth and development, get mixed into one whole personality. Those with DID simply never got to the mixing stage and are left with separate ingredients.
Make sense?

If I'm not conveying the correct concept, feel free to ignore me.

As far as "how do people "split" later on in life", I believe this type of thing happens because their cake is missing an ingredient, or because it didn't get fully "mixed" properly, or because it didn't get "baked" long enough to stay together, something like that.

Like the glass analogy that I've come across, the glass is cracked before it's broken. Maybe it doesn't break right away, but it does get cracked earlier on. It doesn't start whole and stay whole, and then suddenly break one day. It either breaks early on in it's existence, or it gets cracked, which causes breakage later on.
No matter what, something happens before the "later in life" point that is the developing point for seemingly "splitting". Something caused the cake to not be made properly, or caused the glass to crack, but either way, it happened before that "later in life" point. (Aka after childhood, both early and late. I stand by my belief that it is possible, though unlikely and rare, for someone to develop DID in adolescence, however. As far as adulthood, I've learned to never say that something's impossible, but I don't think it happens/has happened yet).

Let me add this to the mix and give you a bit more to chew on.....


All people can create (EP) emotional parts after childhood.

Consider this:
My 18 year old daughter was at work, late at night - she works at a hotel desk in a city, she is a 2nd year college student. A man came up to the desk with bloody hands. And had a weird smile and just stared at her. She thought she was going to die!

She created an emotional part.


Now as I understand it - This is called ASD - Acute Stress Disorder. If she does not soon process this trauma memory, she will have PTSD. It's been 2 weeks and she has not yet. She still tears up at the retelling of the story.

All people can continue to create emotional parts of the personality. The problem occurs if the trauma memory gets stuck, instead of being processed like a normal memory. Note that no one other than those with DID can create another host (ANP), not even those with DDNOS-1.


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New Post

tomboy24 wrote:From how I understand it, and to put it simply, we all start out with alters, basically.

You are wonderful! I love how you try and put the pieces together like I do. Here are my replies to your thoughts.


No one has alters ever except those with DID.

tomboy24 wrote:Everyone starts out with many sides/parts to their personality, and then if allowed to develop correctly and uninterrupted by trauma that's not healed, their personality melds, refines itself, and is molded into one whole personality.

Everyone's personality is made up of many parts even as an adult. The difference between DID/DDNOS-1 is that normal parts of the personality are integrated and function well together.

tomboy24 wrote:Think of it this way: To make a cake, you need ingredients that get mixed together, right? Several separate ingredients that create one whole cake. Well, to develop one whole personality, you also need ingredients mixed together (all the sides/parts/possibilities of a personality). We all start out with separate ingredients that, through growth and development, get mixed into one whole personality. Those with DID simply never got to the mixing stage and are left with separate ingredients.

I like this.

Those behavioral states that we begin with are things like eating, elimination, crying, etc... IF we are cared for then these states will begin to integrate. The process takes about the first 5 years old life to occur (although some stretch it to 8 years). It is not instant in any case. If a child is neglected and not given the attention needed to integrate these behavioral states - this is often seen as the first trauma in those with DID/DDNOS-1.

tomboy24 wrote:As far as "how do people "split" later on in life", I believe this type of thing happens because their cake is missing an ingredient, or because it didn't get fully "mixed" properly, or because it didn't get "baked" long enough to stay together, something like that.

Excellent. More on this later since this gets really complicated and is beyond the scope of this thread. Here is a good link for those that want to dig into this. As you hint at: It is thought that resilience is the ability to negotiate psychosocial and emotional changes after trauma exposure.
This needs it's own thread however.
http://psychiatryonline.org/content.asp ... id=1670530

Yes, people can be spawning EP's by the millions, but it won't be DID, because that includes the existence of at least two ANP's (if I'm remembering correctly), and a bunch o' other criteria.

AND SO, to (hopefully correctly) sum up what we have learned today:

DID is caused in childhood, and is the result of personality-development being interfered with somehow, at some level, AS WELL as trauma not being processed.

DDNOS/DDNOS-1 and other similar dissociative disorders (such as PTSD) can be caused at any time, and if it caused later on in life, it is the result of trauma not being processed.

EP's can be created at any time, by anyone, but that does not mean you have DID, it means you have Acute Stress Disorder or DDNOS/DDNOS-1; or that your dissociation could develop into DDNOS/DDNOS-1.


Am I just that smart, or am I just that good?

tomboy24 wrote:Yes, people can be spawning EP's by the millions, but it won't be DID, because that includes the existence of at least two ANP's (if I'm remembering correctly), and a bunch o' other criteria.

yes!

tomboy24 wrote:AND SO, to (hopefully correctly) sum up what we have learned today:

DID is caused in childhood, and is the result of personality-development being interfered with somehow, at some level, AS WELL as trauma not being processed.

Sounds right.

tomboy24 wrote:DDNOS/DDNOS-1 and other similar dissociative disorders (such as PTSD) can be caused at any time, and if it caused later on in life, it is the result of trauma not being processed.

No. DDNOS-1 is caused during childhood as well, but usually the trauma does not occur as early as those with DID. The abuse can be just as extensive however - at least this is my understanding of all this. An easy way to think of it is that those with DDNOS-1 have had some integration, where those with DID have had none.

Also consider that many alters do have PTSD.

During therapy for DID and DDNOS-1 we will process trauma memories. We will also integrate. These however are 2 separate functions. Can we fully integrate without processing trauma memories? That is highly unlikely.

tomboy24 wrote:EP's can be created at any time, by anyone, but that does not mean you have DID, it means you have Acute Stress Disorder or DDNOS/DDNOS-1; or that your dissociation could develop into DDNOS/DDNOS-1.

Yes, EP's can be created by anyone under the correct circumstances - usually fear for your life.

DDNOS-1 is created in childhood only, as far as I know.

ASD and PTSD can occur in adults and in children.

tomboy24 wrote:Am I just that smart, or am I just that good?

Smart and cute!

Am I just that smart, or am I just that good?

Smart and cute![/quote]
And honestly, I'm just this stupid.. I still feel like I have no idea what to think of splitting later on in life. EP's, yes. But how about ANP's? And why do you say that the ingredients were there, when the EP's have a life and an age from the time they were made. Why don't they have memory from before then, then? If they were always there? I don't get it. This is getting embarrassing. Let's blame the clock.. It's late here and I'm tired. I'll read through everything again in the morning and see if I understand better then Thank you for trying to explain though Tylas (and Tomboy)

This has only just began. I asked Tom Cloyd to write something up, so it is very clear. People keep calling and side tracking him though! grrrr! Does he not know I am his lifes priority! Just answering my many questions.

I still feel like I have no idea what to think of splitting later on in life. EP's, yes. But how about ANP's?

Although I think I grok this, I will let Tom Cloyd explain it, since he does it so eloquently and I am a sad second in comparison!

And why do you say that the ingredients were there,

Tomboy took a bit of leeway in her baking. Worry not!

when the EP's have a life and an age from the time they were made. Why don't they have memory from before then, then?

Your thinking is a bit concrete here, as is typical of those of us with DID. Understand that an alter is like a child - we are not savants - we do not know all. A child can be dead certain that they are right about something and will state it will total confidence. This however, does not make it right.

Alters (including the host alters) hold memory of the times they were out in real life, as well as some memories from the world inside.

Think of my 18 year old daughter again. Her EP's memory will begin with that man standing in front of her, with blood dripping from his hands, (he had cut his wrists which she did not see) and thinking he was going to kill her.

Until a part is created (which is not the same as splitting from some imaginary original part) they will not have memory. Notice that in all those models by the experts in DID no one says that any alter SPLITS from an ORIGINAL. That is old thinking that has been let go of a long time ago, but still exists due to reading old material, passing it along in chat groups, etc...

If they were always there? I don't get it.

They were not always there. You did not read my page on etiology. Shame on you! he he
I will paste the summary from that page here:

"In short, these developmental models posit that DID does not arise from a previously mature, unified mind or “core personality” that becomes shattered or fractured. Rather, DID results from a failure of normal developmental integration caused by overwhelming experiences and disturbed caregiver–child interactions (including neglect and the failure to respond) during critical early developmental periods. This, in turn, leads some traumatized children to develop relatively discrete, personified behavioral states that ultimately evolve into the DID alternate identities."

More to come. I know this has not yet answered your full question!
So the question of HOW an alter forms later in life is still unanswered.

To answer this we turn to van der Hart, Nijenhuis and Steele. Digest that above and then we can dive into this. It took me over a year to digest what you are trying to do in one thread.

lifelongthing wrote:I still feel like I have no idea what to think of splitting later on in life. EP's, yes. But how about ANP's?

Serious mode activated! Let's see if I can explain this correctly.

Considering the fact that having more than one ANP would be classified as DID, the ANP's would have always been there, but not necessarily always active/"awake"/needed, and just like any other alter, they might be "new" only to others' awareness, not in actual existence.

lifelongthing wrote:And why do you say that the ingredients were there, when the EP's have a life and an age from the time they were made. Why don't they have memory from before then, then? If they were always there? I don't get it.

Not all parts have memories from when they were "made", and not all parts have ages (look at me, I don't know my age, and as far as I know, I don't have one). I have no idea when I was "made", but I have all the memories and knowledge of the others. (It's shared memories and knowledge, but I still have it, and can still references it as if it was my own).

Just like an ANP, an EP might have always been there, but they might not have been "awake"/"active"/needed/known about.

It's like, a soldier being activated for duty. They're not always a soldier, but when they're up to serve, they become "active" for duty. That's how parts/alters are. They are always there, but not always "active". Their memories will start from when they are "active"/activated. Does that make sense?

All parts, all ingredients, are there to begin with. Then, with proper development and stuff, they mix together to create one whole personality, one whole cake.
EP's are like the frosting on the cake. Some cakes start out frosted (EP's within DID/DDNOS-1), some cakes become frosted later on (developed EP's within ASD and PTSD), frosting can be taken off (processed trauma/integrated EP's), and some cakes are never frosted (non-DID and no EP's). I hope that makes a bit more sense (sorry if I confused you).