Is depression subjective?

I've always wondered if depression actually exists, a lot of people say they are depressed but in reality they aren't and the doctors use it to sell you medicine, or it just cost taxpayers money.

But in reality does it actually exist? My idea of depression would be being unhappy regardless of the situation you are in, until you get rid of that depression you will never be happy even in the best environments, it will stay with you and ruin the best days of your life.

Whereas simply living in a bad situation can be cured by pulling yourself out of that rut, but many in those situations lose the will to, I don't think that's depression. I did actually know someone who said he had depression and it seemed like it, but his lifestyle was just terrible, he goes around posting on facebook 24/7 about how bad the world is and talks to people about "The Zeitgeist Movement", I told him that maybe he should choose alternative means to activism, he just gave excuses not to, even though I bet he'd be happier if he didn't just sit living that kind of lifestyle.

Many people probably feel they have depression, but it's the reality of their lives making them feel low and telling yourself you have it is a distraction to changing it, because they forever think it's internal. If people stopped blaming it on their own positions and realized it could be the world around them, they would change it. Although some people genuinely do have depression.

Is it possible to objectively tell from hard evidence, or does it always have to be based on subjectivity, they ask "Do you feel depressed?" many people think so but it's hard to prove. Many people could just be looking for excuses, that guy I knew did and he excuses eventually washed, I told him to get out there and spread the word rather than talking, he just said "well.." "but I social anxiety..." "oh, I have insomnia." or autism or whatever, some people do have these disorders but modern society seems to encourage people to label themselves as sick, in reality they aren't.

Depression definitely really exists, which anyone who tried to kill themselves over it (like me) can tell you.

However, I know people who are living in a permanent depressed state *because they like it*. I compare it with sitting in a stinky puddle of mud while you hear a friend shouting "hey come here to the beach, we're having fancy drinks with umbrellas". An actually depressed person WANTS to go to the beach. They may not be able to get there without medical help, but they do want to go. The sort of person I am describing goes "no" and stays in the puddle of mud, then continues to complain about it non-stop. A learned victimhood that leads nowhere but to more victimhood. I suspect the people (I know two of them) actually greatly enjoy the state in which they are victims and the entire world is against them. Is that depression? I'm not 100% sure. You'd have to ask a doctor (which the two people will not do, because there is danger they would have to do something about it).

Some good points. Depression can be a very subjective illness, and I believe it exists on one side of a very fine line as well. It's interesting in that unlike a great deal of mental illnesses, depression can be experienced by people who are quite mentally healthy. In fact, I doubt there's anyone on earth who's never felt depressed. It can be a state of mind, like fear or boredom. But for those of us who "have" depression, it's a little more than that. And yes, as a disorder, it definitely does exist.

Eschenbach wrote:My idea of depression would be being unhappy regardless of the situation you are in, until you get rid of that depression you will never be happy even in the best environments, it will stay with you and ruin the best days of your life.

That's a good way to describe some of it's aspects. But it runs deeper than that.

Eschenbach wrote:Many people probably feel they have depression, but it's the reality of their lives making them feel low

That's what I mean about the fine line. People who have been clinically diagnosed with with depression, such as myself, are capable of feeling that pedestrian "I had a bad day and now I'm depressed" feeling. But we also are capable of falling into that deep abyss of hopelessness that is a true depressive episode.

The thing is that people with depression know the difference.

I have had many days where the weight of the world gets me down, but it's nothing like the hopeless, dead, sodden feeling of a true depressive episode. Sometimes, when I'm merely feeling down, I feel the need to kind of walk on eggshells because it's not unheard of that the simple everyday "blues" will cascade down into the real thing. Also, there are times when I'm feeling OK, but there's a creeping, lurking sadness in the back of my mind that I feel I must get a grip on before it gets worse. Also, and I don't know about anyone else with depression, I can definitely feel the difference between ordinary sadness and depression. I think differently. I move differently. I eat differently. I could go on forever about this; the music I listen to is different, even the way I leave clutter around my apartment is different.
The thing is, like everyone else, a bad day, a tragedy, or a streak of bad luck can bring on a deep depression for me. Like you said, there could be a temptation to write it off as a refusal to deal with the problem/issue at hand and instead wallow in it, but with true depression, I don't simply wallow in it, I become it. If it were merely the common blues, talking with a friend, trying to solve the problem, or rationalizing it usually makes one feel better. With real depression, you feel you have no friends, are too tired/defeated to even begin to try to tackle the problem, and rationalization just flies out the window and heads south.

Eschenbach wrote:Many people probably feel they have depression, but it's the reality of their lives making them feel low and telling yourself you have it is a distraction to changing it, because they forever think it's internal. If people stopped blaming it on their own positions and realized it could be the world around them, they would change it. Although some people genuinely do have depression.

I think that pretty much says it all and answers your own question.

Oliveira wrote:The sort of person I am describing goes "no" and stays in the puddle of mud, then continues to complain about it non-stop. A learned victimhood that leads nowhere but to more victimhood.

I find that I just don't have the energy to get out of the mud, and I don't have the faith to believe the beach will be any better.

Oliveira wrote: I suspect the people (I know two of them) actually greatly enjoy the state in which they are victims and the entire world is against them. Is that depression? I'm not 100% sure. You'd have to ask a doctor (which the two people will not do, because there is danger they would have to do something about it).

There have been threads on this topic I've answered to, but I'll say it again: sometimes I feel comfort in a state of true depression. Cocooned. I don't have to worry about work, or bills, or anything like that because I don't care. Total self absorption. Also, it's like a career criminal who had spent more than half his life in prison and commits a crime so he's sent back because he's more comfortable there. He's better at navigating in prison than in the outside world. I've spent long streches of my life in a true depressive state. So much, that SOMETIMES, in SOME respects, it's like coming home.
As for there second part of what I've quoted from you, I do know that despite my apathy and lack of energy, I always seek out psychiatric help when I get depressed.

I'm sorry if you found what I wrote offensive, no harm meant at all.

It originally took me a year to look for help when I got depressed back in 2004. I was lucky -- my second antidepressant worked and got me out of the puddle of mud entirely. The people I mention were already describing themselves as depressed back then in 2004, and never did anything about it. Personally I never found solace or happiness in depression. (Possibly because it's bipolar depression?) My feelings ranged from "please someone end my pain" all the way to "I feel nothing". It was never comfortable for me.

No, I wasn't offended. Not at all. I was agreeing with you while acknowledging that my experience with depression had been a little different. Everyone's is.

Genetics and brain chemistry play a big role in depression. But I think some people get diagnosed with it when realistically, the main source of their depression is their thought patterns and attitude. They're brain chemistry is balanced but their way of thinking is unhealthy. The guy who posts cynical things on facebook is basically an example of that.

I think someone who suffers from major depression has minimal control over it. I was diagnosed with MDD when I was 17. I try very hard to change my thought patterns and perspective on things.,but some days I feel like I'm pulling myself through mud and my head is in a perpetual wave of fog. I can't find interest in anything, can't connect with people, can't enjoy simple things like my favorite foods or songs. It can be frustrating, sometimes it feels like a restriction on your life. It limits you from experiences and opportunities because you don't have any interest, let alone any will, in living.

I know you can be happy in nearly any circumstance. It's all about your attitude. But when your neurotransmitters aren't working properly, a positive attitude can be quite difficult.

There is certainly a biological origin of depression... But it is unclear exactly how depression and antidepressants actually work. The "serotonin hypothesis" is incomplete and there is certainly involvement of other neurotransmitters like norepinephrine, dopamine, glutamate, etc.

It seems to me that depression can often be a response to stress... This stress triggers a cascade that eventually alters the wiring within the brain, especially in the limbic system and the cortical regions that connect to the limbic system. I have been looking into the kappa opioid receptor as a possible contributing factor to depression. Stress induces release of corticotropin releasing factor (CRF) which can both interfere with midbrain circuits and can trigger release of dynorphin, the endogenous ligand for the kappa opioid receptor. A cascade is triggered and certain neurotransmitter systems are changed. For example, the KOR can induce an increase in the density of the serotonin transporter, the protein that mediates reuptake and degradation of serotonin. The KOR can also decrease dopaminergic activity in certain regions of the brain... I think some cases of depression are learned behaviors that are complicated by anomalies in an individual's stress response.