Transfer of Delusions To Children

Hi,

I am a dad of 5 kids (all under age of 10) and my wife has all the symptoms of DD (both jealous and paranoid), although refuses to believe she has a problem, so has never been formally diagnosed. About 50% of the time she is great and 50% of the time she has all manner of delusions, almost all of which are centered around me and my actions (infidelity, monitoring her, tampering with her phone, GPS system, etc. etc.). She occasionally also directs her delusions towards the nanny (whom she usually promptly fires for whatever supposed transgression has taken place).

The same pattern has been going on for about 3 to 4 years now of her having 2/3 months of not expressing her delusions and being fine (although when I ask her in these "quite" periods she never admits to the delusions) and 2/3 months of delusions and the consequent accusations, anxiousness etc.

I have tried and continue to try to get help for her, but nothing seems to be working (I have got her in front of a physiologist under the guise of marriage counselling, and the physiologist immediately twigged something was off and suggested to my wife that she see a physiatrist, which of course my wife interpreted as me in cahoots with the physiologist!). Anyway, when my wife is in a delusional phase she gets very abusive and insulting towards me (which she used to try and not do in front of the kids, but recently she is relaxing this restriction). I generally don't react in any way what so ever and never argue or try and contradict her, but all the same I find this abuse hard to take, especially in front of the children. My short term plan is to leave the house for a day or two and see is she calms down and longer term I am contemplating divorce if she doesn't seek help.

I have a couple of questions:

- If I am not around what are the chances that she will start directing her delusions towards the kids? I know from her history that she has had delusions towards her co-workers and neighbors prior to our relationship, so it seems someone always has to be the subject.
- She is a great mum to the kids, even in the midst of a delusional period (verbally abusing me in front of the kids not with standing), but if I leave and things get stressful, could she be a danger to the children?
- Has anyone decided to stay with a delusional partner for the sake of the kids and just suck it up until they are old enough to understand? I view my wife as ill, so don't take to heart what she says, so I could probably handle it for a long time if it was the right thing to do for the kids, but I would rather leave if I felt the kids were going to be safe. Does anyone have any experience with this type of situation?

This forum has been a great source of calm for me, and allowed me to filter my wife's actions through the lens of an illness, which makes everything easier for me, so thanks to all who maintain and moderate it!

AM

asusmonitor wrote:Hi,
....

I have a couple of questions:

- If I am not around what are the chances that she will start directing her delusions towards the kids? I know from her history that she has had delusions towards her co-workers and neighbors prior to our relationship, so it seems someone always has to be the subject.

It may happen, but it's not a given. But it's also not a choice a person actually makes - it just happens. Delusions tend to be directed at the people the person spends the most time with, so ironically they are often directed at the person the delusional person loves the most.

Some people with delusions never actually get paranoid toward their children. Rarely, they will think they have ruined the children, and it's best for them to end all their lives.

If she is paranoid, delusional, won't accept help, you may wind up with sole custody of the children in a divorce. The court is not allowed to judge against a person merely for having a diagnosis of mental illness, but if the person refuses medication and is frankly delusional, especially if there is evidence of violence, the court may not want to give that parent any custody rights.

Sometimes the court will grant brief supervised visits only

But often, the threat of not seeing their children will wear down the most delusional person and they will eventually agree to treatment. Again, not guaranteed, but it has happened.

- She is a great mum to the kids, even in the midst of a delusional period (verbally abusing me in front of the kids not with standing), but if I leave and things get stressful, could she be a danger to the children?

In theory, it's possible. No one can control their symptoms or guarantee their symptoms won't turn in a certain direction, if they don't have medication on board. Symptoms tend to worsen over time if not treated. And also, many people have 'episodes' where their symptoms are much worse. They may not even have any memory of what they do during the much worse episodes.

- Has anyone decided to stay with a delusional partner for the sake of the kids and just suck it up until they are old enough to understand?

I opted to allow a very ill housemate to stay, even though he wouldn't take medication. It was very difficult. He had refused medication for almost 2 decades and he had very severe symptoms.

I view my wife as ill, so don't take to heart what she says, so I could probably handle it for a long time

Remember, her symptoms are likely to worsen over time. Many people transition from delusional disorder to paranoid schizophrenia, over time. What you are dealing with today, may be 'handle-able' but it is not guaranteed to stay at that level. Just so you know. You could be trying to hit a moving target, as far as what you can tolerate.

if it was the right thing to do for the kids, but I would rather leave if I felt the kids were going to be safe. Does anyone have any experience with this type of situation?

Andrea Yates, who killed her children, adored her children. But she could not control her symptoms or which way they'd turn, without medication. So again, in theory, it is possible for a woman to become delusional against her children, and put them in danger.

Many adults have told me, that even if they were never hurt by their severely mentally ill parent who refused meds, they grew up profoundly resenting being left with a mentally ill parent who refused medication and had severe symptoms - and their anger was often at the other parent who left them in that situation. They often suffer from anxiety and/or depression as adults and have a hard time trusting in relationships. I love my folks, I love every person I have ever helped to the depths of my heart, but I can tell you right now, it is hell on the kids to see mom or dad out of control and off meds, whether she hurts them or not.

This forum has been a great source of calm for me, and allowed me to filter my wife's actions through the lens of an illness, which makes everything easier for me, so thanks to all who maintain and moderate it!

I'm not so sure we're really doing you such a big favor. I want to emphasize that you never can be 100% sure, that a delusional parent off meds, won't hurt their children. They may love them will every fiber of their being, and still do that. They can't control their symptoms or their behavior, if they get sick enough.

It's basically the same as a person with epilepsy, who's off medication. He may not want to hurt anyone, but if he has a seizure while he's driving, neither he nor anyone else can predict that everyone will be safe. The difference of course, being that the person with epilepsy understands the ramifications of driving while off meds(or at least he does after he's diagnosed and treated).

Keep in mind too, that there is a certain level of chaos, confusion that kids have to deal with, if a parent is off meds. It's not really just about whether she would physically hurt them or not. It isn't really good for kids to witness her venting her delusions upon you.

My suggestion is this. She might agree to medication if she meets a determined resistance - ie, she doesn't see the kids unless she stays on medication and cooperates with her doctor. Sometimes that is a person's only hope - sometimes even that isn't going to do it, and the person will have to be threatened with jail or long term hospitalization, and pressured into taking medication.

I generally feel building a bond with the person and gently moving them toward compliance with treatment is the way to go and is more successful long term...the point where that no longer seems like the best way, is when kids are involved.

AM

Thanks for your prompt and sobering reply. My presumption has always been that she would never hurt the kids, but thinking about what you said, then even if she never hurt them directly, the pain of seeing their mother confused/delusional could be just as traumatic.

Although she has asked twice for a divorce and asked me to leave the house on a number of occasions I don't think she has really thought about the ramifications of what would happen if I agreed. I dread to think what would happen to her mental state were I to try and get full custody of the children. When she is well (and even when she isn't if I am there to act as a buffer), she is probably the best person to look after the kids (as I work full time, plus one of our kids is severely disabled and needs a lot of care, and I don't like the idea of a nanny being a full time carer for him, or the other children for that matter). The best option for the children's sake is probably to tough it out for now and continue to work on getting her help (I have been watching Xavier Amador's video on YouTube today and his approach to getting help is very different from what I have been doing...I will give that a try - link here for anyone that's interested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppculi-Os2g)

Also, I just noticed your comment about people moving from DD to paranoid schizophrenia...I haven't heard that before....do you have any links to research on that (e.g. probability of it happening?). Also, with regard to my wife being a physical danger, are there any statistics on people with DD becoming violent? My wife has never been physically violent with me (or anyone else as far as I know), but I would never rule it out.

Thanks.

asusmonitor wrote:Thanks for your prompt and sobering reply. My presumption has always been that she would never hurt the kids, but thinking about what you said, then even if she never hurt them directly, the pain of seeing their mother confused/delusional could be just as traumatic.

Although she has asked twice for a divorce and asked me to leave the house on a number of occasions I don't think she has really thought about the ramifications of what would happen if I agreed. I dread to think what would happen to her mental state were I to try and get full custody of the children. When she is well (and even when she isn't if I am there to act as a buffer), she is probably the best person to look after the kids (as I work full time, plus one of our kids is severely disabled and needs a lot of care, and I don't like the idea of a nanny being a full time carer for him, or the other children for that matter). The best option for the children's sake is probably to tough it out for now and continue to work on getting her help (I have been watching Xavier Amador's video on YouTube today and his approach to getting help is very different from what I have been doing...I will give that a try - link here for anyone that's interested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppculi-Os2g)

Also, I just noticed your comment about people moving from DD to paranoid schizophrenia...I haven't heard that before....do you have any links to research on that (e.g. probability of it happening?). Also, with regard to my wife being a physical danger, are there any statistics on people with DD becoming violent? My wife has never been physically violent with me (or anyone else as far as I know), but I would never rule it out.

Thanks.

I need to correct what I wrote and I apologize for not being more careful about how I wrote that - I didn't mean a PERSON transitions from DD to schizophrenia, I mean their DIAGNOSIS transitions...is changed. Schizophrenia may take a LONG time to become apparent, in other words.

And often what people who are around the person, THINK is DD, is simply the early stages of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia can start with only the symptoms of DD, with only depression, it can even look like bipolar, or even, mental retardation. The average time between emergence of symptoms and diagnosis, is TEN YEARS.

Women often start developing symptoms of schizophrenia, at an older age than males(on average, 10 years later than when men do), and often, it takes a long time for them to 'get sick'.

In general, no I don't think most who are ill, realize what 'get a divorce' means. It's said in the heat of emotion and it is not at all well thought through.

I love Amador's book - I've worn out and given out, many copies of it. I keep having to get a new copy every few years as I take it with me, it looks worse than my cell phone, even worse than my laptop, and my laptop looks like it was attacked by a rhino, lol.

How is it different from what other things you have been told? I'm very, very interested in understanding what you've been told, by what kind of professional, and how that is different from what Amador says.

Dear Asusmonitor,

Welcome, and I'm glad you are finding support. As a mother who lives in recovery from mental illness, I strongly encourage you to do what it takes to get you wife into treatment and do the best for your kids, by getting her treatment. The longer she goes without intervention the harder it will be.
- It isn't good for the kids to watch you suffer in a relationship with a delusional partner.
- When I lost touch, there were few early symptoms, and when the full blown psychosis occurred nothing could prepare me for the perversion of psychosis and complete loss of my ability to navigate using traditional social norms. It can be a terrifying condition. Having access to early treatment and intervention is essential. I was lucky that I never had symptoms involving my child, but if she is showing any symptoms involving the kids, take it seriously. I don't know if your wife will experience an un-encapsulated psychosis, but if she does, and you didn't do everything in your ability to prevent it, you'll probably regret it if anything happened with her or your children.

With the healthcare reform, your state should have health insurance options that will be affordable and open to your partner, should you choose to divorce.

You should read I Am Not Sick I Don't Need Help: How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment. And if that doesn't work, you can get a divorce. This isn't the 18th century. Ending a relationship is hard regardless of the reason, but you will probably set a better example for your kids if you get out unless she gets treatment and recovers. Even still, recovery is not an easy road for any of us. Divorce isn't such a bad thing for either of you.

I'd meet with a lawyer, and start learning about your state laws and planning a strategy to get her care, using divorce and the kids as your leverage.

Good luck, I hope my post wasn't too insensitive to your wife and her condition, but out of concern for your kids, it is best to get her care sooner than later.

Sunny

great insights.

Also, when you get her to see the psychiatrist, you need to inform the psychiatrist of all the delusions, preferably try to call or send a letter outlining the symptoms. Best to do this without her knowing. Keep a log of the behaviors for your records. Consult with a lawyer, I'm sure they will advise best, and don't be afraid to involve police if there is any threat to anyone's safety. The time before treatment and getting your loved one to stay medication compliant is hardest, until insight is gained. Unfortunately, even in the best cases, this is the tough part. If you read through BSC's thread, you'll see this is never easy. delusional-disorder/topic2488-390.html

Sunny

Am,
I just want you to know you are not alone. My situation is the same as yours except I have two kids 10 and 7 and she is DD(Jealous and Persecutory type). I am staying with my wife for now too. I did get her diagnosed twice by a psychologist and psychiatrist. She will not accept the diagnoses or take meds. I wish you and your family the best.

Has anyone seen the 2 videos by Amador, that are on youtube? They're free and full of good information.

Another thing to keep in mind is that delusional behavior can be due to physical-medical issues - thyroid disease, substance abuse(keep in mind that many people hide substance abuse, even from their spouse), medication reaction - to name a few. If the person is not a substance abuser, has no prescription meds, is healthy physically...DD becomes more likely to be at the root of it. And as I mentioned, what looks like DD, can also be the beginning of schizophrenia, bipolar or even in some cases, depression.

@smithywise - Thanks again for your comments. You asked what I had been advised previously on how to handle my wife's delusions, and to my shame I had not sought professional help with how I should react. Our psychologist (originally for the marriage counseling) suggested that I remove myself from the situation temporarily, but that was really only for my own sanity, and I haven't had any advice regarding what would be best for my wife. I can tell you however that my natural reactions have been:
- Anger and disbelieve at the first round of accusations (which were that I was recording her and that I was sexually attracted to both my own sisters, and may indeed even be sleeping with them). It was only a day or two however before I realized that she was having delusions, so that dissipated my anger very quickly.
- My next "idea" was to try and reason with her and challenge her reality and that is what I did for the following 3 years. I am a pretty rational guy and I was thorough in taking apart her delusions. As you can imagine this resulted her getting extremely agitated/upset/angry.
- My next plan (as I mentioned in my original post) was to just not say anything and try and avoid confrontation as much as possible. This worked better, but clearly is not a long term option.

Going forward I am going to try and follow Amador's prescription of active listening etc. and see how that goes down. (although there are a number of her delusions involving my "thoughts" towards the children that I have set out to her as a line in the sand and she generally doesn't bring them up...when she does I do get very angry and stop all communication with her until she apologies, which she always has so far).

@missmywife030111 - Thanks for your words of encouragement. My intention is to stay for the sake of the kids, but my wife was very clear this week that she wants me out of the house because of all the mayhem I cause by hiding her stuff, tampering with the soap, recording her etc. etc. etc. She has relented to allowing me to sleep in the spare room, so who knows what will happen. Hopefully this phase will pass and allow us to sort something out professionally before the next round of DD kicks in.

@Sunnyg - Thanks for the advice...she has agreed to see a psychologist with me this week, but I think largely because she thinks I need help. She is quite resolute about not seeing a psychiatrist, but maybe the psychologist can convince her. I will speak to a lawyer in the meantime so I know where I stand with the kids etc.