How to detect _compulsive_ liars?

There are many guides in the form of books, articles, videos, training, etc, on how to spot liars, but they are all designed to detect someone who is fundamentally not comfortable with his lying. They all rely on detecting behaviors like covering a part of the face while speaking, expressions of discomfort, that kind of thing. Those all work because most normal people know when they are lying and don't like to lie. They're doing it because they think they will benefit from it in some way, but it's not something they like doing.

But there's another kind of liar: the compulsive, or habitual liar. This person lies all the time. This person isn't lying to get out of some specific problem or achieve some defined, limitted goal. The compulsive liar lies as a habit, all the time. His lying is motivated by a fundamental feeling of worthlessness or perhaps by a feeling that other people have no value. In either case, the compulsive liar does not experience discomfort about lying so all the traditional (and fairly obvious) signs about lying don't work with this person.

It's easy to detect a compulsive liar over a period of time. The weight of inconsistencies builds up. I could accept one or two improbable stories ("I'm a French aristocrat", "I have a Congressional medal of honor", "I have a PhD from Harvard"), but when you hear a large set of such improbable stories coming from the same person, the probabilities stop making sense. Also untrue statements get exposed over time. One or two could be misunderstandings, but three or ten or fifty... that's a habitual liar.

So that much is clear. I can detect a non-habitual liar pretty easily during the interaction just by observing some of the well-known signs. I can detect a habitual liar over a longer period of time by looking for improbable stories and a weight of inconsistencies.

But this is my question: Is there any way to detect a habitual liar more quickly? I have had a few recent experiences where someone who is a habitual liar has wasted far too much of my time within a business context. Things seemed promising, and then the inconsistencies started piling up, and then I wanted nothing further to do with the person... but by then I had wasted too much time and effort on the relationship.

One obvious answer is to handle it on a business level: send an invoice as early as possible in the relationship, that kind of thing. Obiously I will apply that as much as possible. But are there some other suggestions that are outside the scope of business methods?

I'm asking this question because I'm a nice and friendly guy and it seems like I attract these guys who think they will take advantage of me. I run into more of them than most people do. I guess that's another part of my question: What might be attracting these losers to me and what can I do to change that?

Thanks for your feedback and ideas.

Hi wondering
Iam involved with a lier but unfortunatly he is lieing for his own gains , i cannot agree that he doesnt know that he is lieing because if i took that oppinion then that would mean that i understood why he does it , and i dont , and i am fed up trying to understand as it can consume your whole life and becomes very tiresome.

Why doesnt the lier try and waste some off there energy trying to understand why the people on the recieving end off the lies are so upset.

Dont you change why should you its not your fault its theres , i refuse to change , i did think at one point that i must be a soft touch but i have came to the conclusion that its his problem not mine , i must stress at this point iam a bit more wary of people now but wont let it blight my faith in humanity .

mags

mags wrote:Hi wondering
Iam involved with a lier but unfortunatly he is lieing for his own gains , i cannot agree that he doesnt know that he is lieing because if i took that oppinion then that would mean that i understood why he does it , and i dont , and i am fed up trying to understand as it can consume your whole life and becomes very tiresome.

Why doesnt the lier try and waste some off there energy trying to understand why the people on the recieving end off the lies are so upset.

Dont you change why should you its not your fault its theres , i refuse to change , i did think at one point that i must be a soft touch but i have came to the conclusion that its his problem not mine , i must stress at this point iam a bit more wary of people now but wont let it blight my faith in humanity .

Hi Mags, thanks for your answer. Fortunately for me, I never get involved in personal relationship with such people but I seem to attract them in a business context. I don't care to understand them or fix them; they can rot in a ditch for all I care. I just want to avoid them. Sorry, to those here who are compulsive liars thinking of fixing your problem, I encourage you to do it, but until you actually take action and take responsibility I have no sympathy for you. I just want to figure out how to detect such people earlier rather than later, and how to avoid them. I have put together a list of some of the qualities I have noticed in such people, all within a business context:

• Mentions some special heritage: nobility, descendant of a famous person, inheritance
• Use of terms such as “my friend” or “my brother”
• Mentions the high value of the relationship, or how great the relationship is, explicitly says “we're such good friends” or “we're going to become great friends”
• Borrowing money
• Requests for money that are not explicitly a loan: he needs money to buy something that will benefit the giver of the money
• Pressure behavior: pressure to do something in a hurry
• Trust tests: “If you don't do this, you don't trust me”
• Says, “Trust me” or “it's ok, trust me”
• Mentions higher degrees from well-known schools, such as a Harvard PhD
• Excessive contact: phone calls, etc
• The liar is isolated from colleagues
• The liar is reluctant to invite others into his home, or say where his home is
• In a business context: The liar is reluctant to have meetings at his place of business
• Small inconsistencies: He claims to be successful but has poor clothes, poor appearance
• Small inconsistencies related to money: says he's rich, flies economy class, does his own laundry
• Lots of emergencies, crisis, last-minute needs
• Car problems
• Things often go wrong: things get lost, shipments get screwed up, the address was wrong, the bank screwed up
• Frequent family emergencies, including medical emergencies
• Lives in a low-trust area, such as Florida or Las Vegas
• Works in low-trust industries: gambling, pornography
• Mentions past achievements: athletic achievements, Congressional Medal of Honor
• No old friends, no long-term jobs, frequent moves
• He becomes very busy and doesn't have time to fix the problems – the problems are not high enough priority
• He becomes very busy and becomes difficult to contact
• Inconsistencies start to pile up: debts aren't repaid, the check gets “lost in the mail”, the money goes into the “wrong account”, the bank “messed up the wire transfer”

Those are my signs so far. Any others?

Hi Wondering

I must say you seem to have there ''Qualities'' down to a fine art but i think you are being to kind to use that word.

I also think that if you are talking about a particular person you may find it interesting to look on the forum for Antisocial personality disorder , if you ' select a forum topic' at the top off the page you will be able to scroll down and have a look at all the disorders ect.
You will see all off my postings on there under the heading APD Male 6yrs. that will save me repeating it all here.

Everything you descripe as there ' qualities ' seem to fit my b/f to a T and i have recently been doing a lot off research i first started searching cumpulsive lier but soon discovered that the problem goes much deeper.

Iam trying to educate myself so as to make sure that i never get involved with this type off person ever again and to help me avoid them in the future.

From what i have read on another web site they seem to zoom in on people who are the nurturing , caring , giving type which would describe me , i dont know if there is a way to avoid them i suppose iam more aware now off this type off person so hopefully that will help me as it has been a learning process although a very painfull one which iam at the momment trying to get out off. very difficult as i do have feelings for this person but iam so drained after 5yrs off lies and trying to help him that i have came to the conclusion the only person he cares about is himself.

Apparently there is a book which iam going to buy as it sounds very interesting , by the author Dr R Hare , title Without conscience , the disturbing world off psychopaths among us.

I know this sounds drastic as i though that psychopaths were murderers ect but not so.

mags

mags wrote:I must say you seem to have there ''Qualities'' down to a fine art but i think you are being to kind to use that word.

Thank you. I have one more to add to my list which I have noticed:

• Mentions past military achievements, particularly achievements which are elite, secret and impossible to verify: he's a former CIA agent, Navy SEAL, special forces, etc.

Everything you descripe as there ' qualities ' seem to fit my b/f to a T and i have recently been doing a lot off research i first started searching cumpulsive lier but soon discovered that the problem goes much deeper.

The problem is fundamental. The compulsive liar types (that I have dealt with a biz context) view talking as a way of getting things from other people, not as a form of communication. Right now I'm communicating with you by writing this; there's nothing I hope to get out of you from it. That's normal. A compulsive liar/psychopath doesn't think that way though.

From what i have read on another web site they seem to zoom in on people who are the nurturing , caring , giving type which would describe me ,

Yes that describes me, too, and I'm beginning to realize that they pick up on that and go after it. I'm onto their tricks now and in my most recent encounter with such a person, I saw that he fooled a whole lot of people, including a lot of businessmen with much more experience than me, but he didn't fool me.

i dont know if there is a way to avoid them i suppose iam more aware now off this type off person so hopefully that will help me as it has been a learning process although a very painfull one which iam at the momment trying to get out off. very difficult as i do have feelings for this person but iam so drained after 5yrs off lies and trying to help him that i have came to the conclusion the only person he cares about is himself.

I'll give some advice if I may. This advice is probably stuff you've heard a million times before, but here goes:

• This guy is never going to change, no matter what you do or what he does. The only change that ever happens to psychopaths is they end up in jail or with a bullet in the head. So if you're waiting for change, that's the only change you can expect.
• There are tons of guys out there. Head over to match.com or any of the other services, and sign up now! Post some pics, describe yourself honestly, and you'll get a stream of guys contacting you. Most of them will not be good for you but maybe one (or a few) will be. Go on some dates with ones who seem safe. Have sex with ones who seem especially safe. It will prove you to very quickly that there are plenty of guys out there who are looking for you, you have plenty of choices, this guy who is currently ruining your life is not an "opportunity" and is 100% instantly replacable. Sex is important; a relationship is not finally over in your mind until you have sex with someone else. Just try to pick someone who is safe and caring.

I know this sounds drastic as i though that psychopaths were murderers ect but not so.

No most of them are not murderers but they do believe their own lies and this often leads them into some very bad situations that they can't get out of (jail or a bullet in the head).

mags wrote:I must say you seem to have there ''Qualities'' down to a fine art but i think you are being to kind to use that word.

Thank you. I have one more to add to my list which I have noticed:

• Mentions past military achievements, particularly achievements which are elite, secret and impossible to verify: he's a former CIA agent, Navy SEAL, special forces, etc.

Everything you descripe as there ' qualities ' seem to fit my b/f to a T and i have recently been doing a lot off research i first started searching cumpulsive lier but soon discovered that the problem goes much deeper.

The problem is fundamental. The compulsive liar types (that I have dealt with a biz context) view talking as a way of getting things from other people, not as a form of communication. Right now I'm communicating with you by writing this; there's nothing I hope to get out of you from it. That's normal. A compulsive liar/psychopath doesn't think that way though.

From what i have read on another web site they seem to zoom in on people who are the nurturing , caring , giving type which would describe me ,

Yes that describes me, too, and I'm beginning to realize that they pick up on that and go after it. I'm onto their tricks now and in my most recent encounter with such a person, I saw that he fooled a whole lot of people, including a lot of businessmen with much more experience than me, but he didn't fool me.

i dont know if there is a way to avoid them i suppose iam more aware now off this type off person so hopefully that will help me as it has been a learning process although a very painfull one which iam at the momment trying to get out off. very difficult as i do have feelings for this person but iam so drained after 5yrs off lies and trying to help him that i have came to the conclusion the only person he cares about is himself.

I'll give some advice if I may. This advice is probably stuff you've heard a million times before, but here goes:

• This guy is never going to change, no matter what you do or what he does. The only change that ever happens to psychopaths is they end up in jail or with a bullet in the head. So if you're waiting for change, that's the only change you can expect.
• There are tons of guys out there. Head over to match.com or any of the other services, and sign up now! Post some pics, describe yourself honestly, and you'll get a stream of guys contacting you. Most of them will not be good for you but maybe one (or a few) will be. Go on some dates with ones who seem safe. Have sex with ones who seem especially safe. It will prove you to very quickly that there are plenty of guys out there who are looking for you, you have plenty of choices, this guy who is currently ruining your life is not an "opportunity" and is 100% instantly replacable. Sex is important; a relationship is not finally over in your mind until you have sex with someone else. Just try to pick someone who is safe and caring.

I know this sounds drastic as i though that psychopaths were murderers ect but not so.

No most of them are not murderers but they do believe their own lies and this often leads them into some very bad situations that they can't get out of (jail or a bullet in the head).

Hi again Wondering

Ha Ha i know that one about the military he has told me this , he told me he was in the army but strangly enough there is no proof off this.
Also i was at a concert with him one night and i went off to the ladies when i came back he went off to the bar and a young man standing next to me said to me '' you must be so proud off him and really glad to get him back'' he was reffering to my b/f apparently in my absance he had told the guy that he was just back from iraque !!!!!!!

Thanks for your advice , it is good advice and i have put that advice to practise in the past but this guy is a very good manipulater and here iam back in the same place but this time round iam finding out everything i need to know so that i can take off the rose tinted glasses and make sure for sure that iam right............does that make sense ??

Anyway you seem to be well informed if you dont mind me saying and iam wondering why you need to seek advice in spotting liers ?

thanks
mags

Hi again Wondering

Ha Ha i know that one about the military he has told me this , he told me he was in the army but strangly enough there is no proof off this.
Also i was at a concert with him one night and i went off to the ladies when i came back he went off to the bar and a young man standing next to me said to me '' you must be so proud off him and really glad to get him back'' he was reffering to my b/f apparently in my absance he had told the guy that he was just back from iraque !!!!!!!

Thanks for your advice , it is good advice and i have put that advice to practise in the past but this guy is a very good manipulater and here iam back in the same place but this time round iam finding out everything i need to know so that i can take off the rose tinted glasses and make sure for sure that iam right............does that make sense ??

Anyway you seem to be well informed if you dont mind me saying and iam wondering why you need to seek advice in spotting liers ?

thanks
mags

mags wrote:Ha Ha i know that one about the military he has told me this , he told me he was in the army but strangly enough there is no proof off this.

Yeah, at this point I'm pretty suspicious about any military claims. Ask for details, confirm the details. "Were you carrying an M16?" (M16s are no longer used, btw). This seems like something a lot of pepole lie about. Maybe we've all seen enough war movies that it's easy to #######4 about. I don't know. Speaking of asking for details, next time someone (anyone) tells me, "I have a PhD from Harvard in molecular biology" I'm going to immediately respond, "That's great! Who was your advisor? Could you spell that please?"

Also i was at a concert with him one night and i went off to the ladies when i came back he went off to the bar and a young man standing next to me said to me '' you must be so proud off him and really glad to get him back'' he was reffering to my b/f apparently in my absance he had told the guy that he was just back from iraque !!!!!!!

Why are you going to concerts with this guy? Why are you even returning his calls? Some more (perhaps unwanted) advice for you: cut off contact with him. Have sex with someone else. Set a timeline for these two things. "By the end of this month" is an excellent target for you to make and keep to.

Thanks for your advice , it is good advice and i have put that advice to practise in the past but this guy is a very good manipulater and here iam back in the same place but this time round iam finding out everything i need to know so that i can take off the rose tinted glasses and make sure for sure that iam right............does that make sense ??

If he's lying to strangers in bars about just coming back from Iraq that should be enough to say "good riddance to this human garbage". Don't waste another second on him. Sign up for some on-line dating service. Have sex. Break the intimacy.

Anyway you seem to be well informed if you dont mind me saying and iam wondering why you need to seek advice in spotting liers ?

Because I keep on running into them and in the last round, this guy wasted far too much of my time, and some of my money and I can't keep doing this. You gave me one great insight: they look for people who are caring, and that's why they always pick me. Rather than becoming cold and uncaring, I'm just going to start looking hard for signs of lying. Again, when normal people lie, the physical signs are pretty obvious, but when these compulsive liar lie, there are no physical signs so I'm trying to get together some ideas of what other signs to look for. I think my list is pretty good so far. I'll add one more:

• Compulsive use of humor in a business context. Jokes are ways of testing boundaries and pushing boundaries. Jokes are also a way of bonding. Compulsive liars are big on "bonding" type of things.

Hi wondering

Yes ask for details ect but the problem with that one is when i started asking for proof ect they turn it round on you and accuse you off not trusting them ect LOL ''Helllllooooo'' and before i knew it i was the one feeling guilty for asking for the proof.

I really dont see any point in challenging this man (when found out) as he has an uncanny way off turning it all around to his advantage and always has another answer to come back with & before you no where you are he has your brain so confused that you forget what the confrontation was about in the first place , they are very good at this type off manipulation & its so scary how they can lie on there feet even when confronted with the truth i really do start to Question myself.

Yor advice is welcomed dont worry i dont mind getting the advice its putting it into practise thats the problem

Jokes and humour are ''i think'' another way off masking there true self , like a cover up for the insecuritys in company , like insecurities / nervousness incase they are found out a cover up incase somebody sees through them ?

sometimes my ex has acted really stupid in company to my embaressment i also think they do the jokes/humour type off thing for attention purposes ( have to be the centre off attention at any cost ).

Also once a lier knows you have rumbled them things can get very nasty not physically in my case but i know that they will turn things around to there advantage by slandering you to other people telling lies about you and these other people may believe the lier (just as i have) VERY DANGEROUS , as i am proud off my reputation as iam sure you are .

No iam not going to do any more confrontation as i think this only makes the sittuation much worse ,in your case if you are not emotionally bonded to this person i would just keep a low profile with him and take comfort in the fact that you know what he is and leave it at that , with this type off person it is a no win sittuation.

I honestly do think that compulsive liers are very dangerous more so than alchoholics , thiefs, gambelers or even violant people as you can see all off these things but its so hard to see a lier and so much energy is used in the process.

I have to be carefull about speaking my mind on the forum as a few people on the last thread which i was posting on were not happy with my statements off facts.
take care
mags