How to love a lying addict?

Background: I met a guy online just under two months ago, I'll call him Joey. It was the first time I'd ever tried online dating, and in fact I deleted my account within 2 weeks because I decided it wasn't for me. (I can't do casual dating, because I tend to take things so seriously and get hurt easily). Anyhow, before deleting my account I did message Joey, we talked on the phone, then met up the following week. The date started very badly for me because as soon as I saw him I realised he had lied about his height, being shorter by several inches, and it made me wary of him immediately. It wasn't that I wanted to date a tall guy, just I didn't like being lied to full stop. Well, I've come a long way since then!

After the bumpy start, and talking to a couple of friends who said he sounded so sweet, I got over my initial self-righteous indignation over the obvious height lie and decided to just give it a go after all. What followed was possibly the 3 happiest weeks of my life. Joey was so extremely attentive and expressively in love with me,telling me he loved me unconditionally and texting me regularly, that I felt more loved, secure and accepted than I have ever felt before in my life. There were a few things that didn't make sense, and other lies became clear like his also being older than his online profile description, but they seemed insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It was only when he started talking about marriage (yes, already) that I started thinking more seriously and wanting everything to make sense. And in doing so, the little things that didn't make sense started to disturb me. To shorten a long story, I discovered he didn't work where he said and he didn't go to church where he said either, so all the tales he told me about that part of his life were also untrue. I was horrified that the life he had shared with me was all a fabrication and I feared for my own safety, because at this stage (and even now) he knew where I lived and worked and went to church but I didn't have any objective evidence of his identity at all. Not knowing the motivation behind all his lies, I assumed he was an online scammer. I cut off all contact immediately, and spent the next week researching online online scams, sociopaths, psychopaths, and learning about how to detect lies. I had nightmares. Planned to move flat. Friends offered for me to stay with them for a while, and one friend stayed with me one night I was feeling particularly low. Everyone told me to let it go, stay safe, and move on. But I didn't get it. He was one of the most anxious people I've ever met, he was endlessly wringing his hands on our first date, and some others, so he didn't fit the description of a sociopath or psychopath, and none of the online scammers I'd read about met their victims in person and paid for everything. I felt like I was going crazy. I wanted answers.

Finally then, I got to this forum, and the things I've read about seem to fit much better. I've since been in touch with Joey again, and we were supposed to meet today, but without going into detail we didn't, postponed to next Saturday instead, and talked on skype. He told me I was torturing him though with all my accusations and not believing him (inc. reason for not being able to meet today), though he said he deserved it and he'd take it, but I wasn't helping him, and I didn't understand why people lie or are alcoholics etc.

So, back to my 'topic'. I still don't know for certain the motivation for Joey lying to me, but if he really never meant to hurt or defraud me, I want him to know that I really do care for him and accept him for who he truly is, whilst not encouraging him to lie even more by my not confronting him when he does. I've already told him about this website, but I don't know if he'll look at it or even join. I'd really appreciate any advice or tips.

Hi Raindrops,
I'm glad you made it to this forum. You've been on some ride.

Okay... a few things first of all... First, In all the research I did on lying addicts AS OPPOSED TO PATHOLOGICAL LIARS who DO DEFRAUD etc, lying addicts are deeply sensitive people and hate hurting anyone so, in my opinion, you are safe with this man knowing where you live. I have never come across one lying addict in all my research who stalked etc. They do the opposite actually and usually do a runner when their lies are exposed leaving the loved one bewildered.

Second... It is classic lying addiction for them to become Mr or Ms Perfect and making the person feel like a million dollars. They mold and shape themselves like pretzels to what they intuit people want and need them to be. Loved ones often say "they were perfect apart from the lies" not realizing that everything was a lie - APART FROM THE LOVE. The love lying addicts have IS genuine. They are extremely deep people but are afraid of being who they really are as they believe the person they love will not want that person (which they despise) so become what they believe the person wants and needs them to be. This is not intentional manipulation to cause harm. It is a survival mechanism to help them get what they want in life as they do not know how else to function if they are not lying to get their needs met.

Here's the bottom line though... You are going nowhere but down in this relationship if Joey refuses to acknowledge he has a lying problem. The only way you 2 can have a healthy future is if he owns what he is. Only then can you work together to develop an equal relationship. Without Joey admitting he is addicted to lying, there will never be any trust building between you and you will end up feeling like you are living in a twilight zone after a while. (It is the same reasoning for any loved one being in a relationship with an addict of any type. Only when an addict gets help is a healthy future possible.)

The thing with addiction as a whole is that a person often has to go down before they can reach that place where they are ready to change and Joey may not have had enough punishment from his addiction yet so you may be in for a rough ride if you decide to stick around with this guy if he continues to "gaslight" you. "Gaslighting" is blame shifting back onto the other person making them feel like they are the ones who are wrong. Lying addicts are masters at this and it is this tool lying addicts use that can make a loved one feel, after a while, like they are going insane.

My suggestion would be to listen to your own gut and make your decision based on what it says. To help you make a decision (in case you haven't read them already), here are a few posts to help you understand the "what" and "why" of lying addiction and, if Joey ever decided to get recovery, a post I wrote on How To Stop Lying too...

compulsive-lying/topic103034.html

compulsive-lying/topic115788.html

compulsive-lying/topic116107.html

Keep Reaching Out for as long as you need to as you work your way through this situation.
Big Hug,
Billi Caine

Wow, Billi. Thanks so much for posting a reply and such helpful advice to me so quickly. You are such an amazing kind and generous person. I've read other posts you've replied to too and they've also helped me. Your articles really transformed the way I thought about people who are addicted to lying, and allowed me to feel compassion instead of judgment.

Yes, I think Joey is an incredibly sensitive and caring person, who would never intentionally hurt anyone, which is why I think I do really like him despite all the craziness. Right now I sense that he would rather I just go away then actually stick it out with him though, hence his postponing our meeting yesterday. I've already sent him the posts that you shared, but I don't think he has looked at them because to do so would be like admitting he has a problem. I'll see how our meeting goes this next Saturday and decide where to go to from there, as he's kept promising that he will share everything with me then. I know he can't, but I was hoping even baby steps in the right direction of opening up and being honest about a few things without being rejected might give him courage to consider looking at the bigger problem and facing that with support and encouragement. I'll report back after we meet, that's if he doesn't bail out on me completely before then, but I'm hoping he won't.. x

Hi Raindrops,
Thank you for your kind words.

Joey does sound like he has a good heart as most lying addicts do. I honor your decision to walk this journey with him and look forward to hearing how it goes next week.

This other post may be of use to Joey too if he is willing to go to the next level with himself and you. It's about How to Come Clean Responsibly...

compulsive-lying/topic116108.html

Warmest
Billi

Hi Billi,

Thanks again for your helpful advice and encouragement. I sent your link about coming clean responsibly to Joey last night. I've not had a reply and he's keeping quite quiet at the moment, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing, as it also means he's not lying to me.

I really believe that Joey wants to be truthful, but it seems so difficult and he just seems to open his mouth and lie instead before he's had a moment to think about it. And then I feel bad for him too because I know it makes him miserable. I'm hoping he'll read your article about stopping lying and learn to pause a moment before he speaks though, not least because it will ease his own inner turmoil apart from anything else.

I'll update again after Saturday, whether or not it goes ahead. x

Well, I'm reporting back early, as I already know I'm not meeting Joey tomorrow. He messaged me yesterday to say he was unwell, then followed up this afternoon with photos of himself in hospital. Which seemed a bit of an extreme length to go to just to avoid confrontation! But anyway..We talked on the phone this evening, and I enjoyed our conversation.

After reading all of the articles posted by Billi Caine, I felt less dependent on Joey needing to tell the truth and therefore less vulnerable if he lied, I felt emotionally safe and at peace instead of anxious. Thank you, Billi.

He complained about how he had to send me photos to prove everything to me now and how he wouldn't bother if he didn't care about me so much.But I threw it back to him and said I hadn't asked him to prove anything and I had no desire to check everything he said and ask him to prove everything, because I couldn't possibly always know. I told him he would always know when he lied though, and he would suffer for all his lies - his conscience would punish him. I told him I didn't want him to suffer though, so I want him to stop lying. Really, I want him to be well. I also told him it was hurtful to me when he lied because it was basically a way of shutting me out from who he really is. But I believe he is is good enough just as he is without lies - the lies are what devalues him as a person not the other way around. Joey listened to most of my 'lecture' quietly and without feeling the need to respond defensively or deny that he had a lying problem or anything else I said, so I thought that at least was progress. I meant everything sincerely on my part at least.

I don't really know where this relationship is going (my friends keep asking me!), but I'm content with just being there for Joey for now, and believing in him when no one else does (including my friends- who loyally and understandably care more about my well-being than that of a stranger they've never met who lies to me!), most notably though himself. I believe that Joey can break free from lying one day, if he takes one day at a time. I know he has to choose that for himself and only he can do that. I won't hold myself responsible for him but I want to support him and believe in him (not his lies) and pray that he will begin to believe in himself too and not give up because it's really possible and worth it to be free.

Of course, I do worry about being hurt in the process, so I will make my own mental and physical safety my first priority and make the decision now to step out if I start to feel unsafe in any way. But I don't intend to withdraw for no reason. I'll keep posting here too so that others can alert me to warning signs that I may not see myself, or enlighten me where I've just got everything wrong completely. So if you're reading this, please do share your insights, I'd appreciate anything that helps.

one way is to remind yourself that everyone lies all the time to some degree

Hi Raindrops,
Joey's inability to face you and going to the extremes of photographing himself in hospital are more a sign of his extreme terror of coming clean than they are of anything else. To a lying addict, coming clean is often the most terrifying thing they will ever do - especially if they love the person they are coming clean to. It could mean the end of the road for that relationship if the lies are huge ones. The truth could shatter the loved ones whole perception of who they thought the lying addict was and this could be the deal breaker.

You are wise and beautiful inside though Raindrops and are on the right track both with your reasoning and your big heart.

I am glad you are going to keep coming back to update your journey so you know that you are not alone on this rocky path you are on. Just make sure you put your own mental health first on the list so you come out of this in one piece.

Big Hug,
Billi

Thanks, Hypermasculine. I think it’s helpful to remember that we all live in glass houses and think many times before throwing stones at others.
Hi Billi, it’s always good to read your advice and encouragement. Actually I really need advice now..
I’ve tried to post on this wall twice since last week, but each time I’ve been logged out/timed out so that the post failed, I lost everything I wrote and then I didn’t have the energy to write it all again. So I’m now writing this on a Word document then will copy and paste.
I was due to meet Joey tomorrow. It’s the third time we’ve scheduled to meet and for Joey to ‘tell me everything and answer all my questions’. I didn’t ask for this, he insisted he wanted to do that, and also used it as a reason to not tell me anything in the last 3 weeks (when we’ve just texted and talked on skype) because he wanted to do it properly face to face. Each week though he has had a reason to cancel on me. The first two times he sent me photos of himself in hospital, after the event, and both times said he was in too much pain to meet. Both times he said he knew I wouldn’t believe him and that I would think he had photo-shopped the photos, in fact it hadn’t cross my mind at all that he would do this. I believed he had been in hospital, I just wasn’t convinced he was in too much pain after coming out of hospital to see me. I agreed to postpone a third week but was sure he wouldn’t postpone on me yet again though, because after all, how long can this postponing go on for??
But on Wednesday I got a message from him to say he was in terrible pain because his stitches had gone sceptic. I immediately thought this was leading up to him avoiding meeting me again and I replied to say he wasn’t being honest with me but I still really cared for him. Instead of denying that he was lying though, he replied accusing me of not being honest either! Saying he didn’t believe me anymore (about caring for him), and that I was a very cruel person and he hoped God would give me compassion. Then he told me not to text him. I thought this was very childish so decided not to take him too seriously. Last night (Thursday) he sent me a photo of a very ugly scar down his arm. The photo is grainy, and I’m afraid I think this may well be photo-shopped. I hope it is anyway, because I would hate for him to actually have such an awful injury!
I need advice though because I had decided last week that I wouldn’t postpone any more after this week. This will be his last opportunity to see me. I haven’t told him this, because I didn’t want to be guilty of manipulation myself. But really I don’t think I can deal with him postponing on me every week indefinitely, because he can’t face his fears in being honest with me, and resorting to such drastic manipulative measures himself. Is there any more that I can say or do that might give him courage to just meet me? I know it’s all very individual and subjective, but any tips would be much appreciated, as I hate for it to end by what he will view as my rejecting him. Thanks so much.

Hi Raindrops,
Sorry to hear this saga is still going on. It must feel like pulling teeth.

Joey simply isn't ready yet to even face his own lying problem let alone face you. He is not at his rock bottom yet. You will know it when he is as it will ooze out of every fiber of his being.

In the recovery movement, the telling of a moral inventory is not said until the person has fully accepted they are an addict to a wet, dry or behavioral drug and is doing something about it so in effect, Joey is putting extreme pressure on himself even telling himself that he can at some point soon come clean to you. An addict has to be stronger within themselves before facing the horror of their actions in active addiction and that takes time.

My advice Raindrops is fully to back off for your own mental health. His recent actions are crazy making and most likely not true. As a registered general nurse, I know that if stitches go septic (the term is "infected" these days not "septic"), antibiotics reduce pain significantly as does a simple paracetamol so what he is telling you is just not true. I do not believe there is a wound but more disturbingly, if too much pressure is put on Joey either by himself or you, he may be "forced" by his addiction to create a wound himself. That is common in lying addiction.

In addition, he is using another lying addict tactic of blame shifting. Lying addicts do this for 2 reasons - to get the heat off of them as well as to put distance between them and the person accusing them of lying in the hopes that the relationship will end - meaning they do not have to face coming clean and their world caving in. The lying addict may love the person deeply but would often rather it ended than face the inevitable horror of exposure.

Back off for another reason too... if Joey comes clean before he is ready, the exposure could be simply too much for him and his self esteem could become so shattered that he goes deeper into self hatred. Just focus on looking after you for the time being and trust that as with any avalanche, it will eventually cave in (ie: his addiction cannot go on indefinitely without him drowning in it). Just let Joey know that you will be still be there when that time comes and in the meantime, leave him to his addiction. He has to go where he has to go to get to the point where he can say that he is sick and tired of being sick and tired of his addiction and the horrors it is bringing to his and others life.

Big Hug,
Billi