moving on..

I'm new to this forum but already getting so much from it so I thought Id join up.

Ok: where to begin? We met a little over a year ago at my local swimming pool! Stunning foreign girl/lady. I wont mention countries. As in most initial bpd encounters we hit it off straight away. Incredible. Beautiful. Sexy. Stunning. Fun. Similar tastes. Humour. Everything. We met for coffee. Next day we were making out in the sauna at the pool. French kissing in front of others in the sauna. It was wild. And I knew it would be trouble...but I didnt care. She had a child. And no job. She had left the father of her 5 year old son and travelled with a girlfriend to my country with her child. Money ran out. The friend left to go back. Her ex, father of her child, followed her over and he moved back in with her. I knew this. She told me. But they werent sleeping together she said. And its true, they werent. Alarm bells were ringing. I didnt hear them.

I met her once at an internet cafe. She was skyping a guy when we had arranged to meet. Strange. Turns out he was some married German guy she had been having an affair with. I didnt care. She was 'mine'..she loved me. She was totally besotted with me. She told the German guy about me. She told her son's father about the German. This was manipulation by her because now I was really in the frame as her ex was moving out and no-one could pay her rent..So she 'suggested' I move into a new place with her and son and we share rent. I agreed. She had to go back to her country for Christmas. I later found out that she had gone on Xmas holidays with the German guy..She came back. I was worried. It was all happening too fast. i wasnt in a position to handle these responsibilities. Something was wrong!! But i was still there. I was with her. I had sympathy for her. But I didnt look for a flat or really help her as I was doubtful and so she had to move back to her home country. I felt guilty. She was virtually homeless and had no money. Many, many dramas ensued. I visited, we fought, we loved, it was as intense as anything I have ever been through. I wasnt really in love because there was so much at stake and I didnt move in with her. We contacted on msn all day every day. And skype. And facebook. I didnt really want her and I guess I wanted her to end it but she was still needing and clinging to me and she really was in a bad situation and I was afraid to end it.. I visited a few times since for a few weeks each time. The last time I went she didnt want me anymore. She had moved on. Things were getting better for her and she had a job now.

Of course although I hadnt wanted her before, now I really wanted her. A year after we had first met..I was/am now obsessed with her. Everything about her. Strange how things work...But I had decided to go away somewhere foreign to teach English. Of course she then missed me and we spent ages on msn after I had started travelling. She was full of empty promises saying she wanted me when I come back (in March) and that we would be together again.

I had been wondering about her for so long. What was wrong with her? I had googled 'Needy' and 'child abuse' because she had been beaten, as a child, by her mother ( who she understandably hates) and because she was needy and clingy and often said she felt 'empty' . I stumbled upon bpd and was intrigued. It fitted her description exactly. Incredible. She doesn't self-harm and isnt suicidal as far as I know but EVERYTHING else fits. Little things like 'shoplifting' as well as incredibly reckless driving. Child-like tendencies when being manipulative. Rage, which I encountered several times. Incredible rage, like a woman possessed. Unbelievable. I worry for her child. I love him. He must walk on eggshells. Her incredible moood swings. Her opinionated black-and-white thinking, Her incredible irresponsibility. Her sister was paralysed in a car crash, she was distraced because she was changing stations on the radio in the car. My ex when driving changes the radio station ALL the time, while her son is bouncing around in the back with no seat belt on. Her impulsive spending, her tendency to msn me after having a stomach ache after eating 20 chocolates. Her fear of intimacy and how she would shudder and look fearfully into my eyes and then push me away directly after orgasm, and not let me share that intimacy with her. It all fits. And theres lots more that I will share soon.

Anyway, we were contacting on msn and skype while I was travelling but I have since closed my accounts on facebook and skype and msn. Our only contact now is email and she hasnt replied for a few days. My last email to her was just saying that I needed to change things in my life when I get home and that it would not be a good idea for us to meet again and that I must stop fooling myself that there is ever any hope that we will have anything going for us again. Im starting to see sense. She hasnt emailed yet and I havent replied back again. And I really hope I can mange to not reply. Its tempting, I miss her, I think of her and her somewhat precarious situation (job finishing soon, child to support) but Im not going back. Im moving on. Im on the way. Its hard but its the start.

Any similar situations, advice, experience is welcome.
Thanx for reading.

Ontheway, welcome to the BPD board of Psychforums. I commend you for accomplishing what I was unable to do for 15 years -- walking away from a relationship with an untreated non-self-aware BPD at the end of the honeymoon period. You enjoyed all the infatuation and intense passion and then, when the abusive language started, you got out.

That is a clear sign that you likely have healthy self esteem and strong personal boundaries. It took me more than 15 years to get to that point -- well, I should say "close to that point" because you still outshine me. So I applaud you. Yes, I know you still feel a strong attraction to her despite your intellectual understanding of her behavior. But you have not returned and likely will not do so.

While you are here, please tell us how you managed to pull that off. Most of the BPD partners here, like me, had to struggle much longer to accomplish the same thing. We had succumbed to the misguided notion that "being needed" (for what we could do) is the same as "being loved" (for what we are). My thinking, then, is that you should be giving us some guidance, not the other way around.

Hi ontheway,

I agree, you are quite astute

Honestly, the most beneficial thing to me during the must crucial time of letting go was turning the focus to myself. Especially, the mechanizations behind WHY I got involved with this man when there were so many red flags waving in my face! Putting you first seems counter-intuitive. I believe this is especially to Nons who stay involved with BPDs for any length of time. It seems so selfish. But, really, it isn't. Because it isn't done in a narcissistic way, but in a caring, loving, concerned, focus way. And this allows yourself to become more grounded and more healthy and beneficial to the people who depend on you.

In my case I was so drawn to my exBPD because I was dissatisfied with my life and, for a long time, was waiting for someone to come along and "finish the puzzle" so to speak. And he was so effusive and sweet and validating that I was certain he was the one. I saw my future blossoming into everything I thought I wanted it to be. Key word "thought." Because in reality my life was pretty awesome as it was, it was just me who was dissatisfied.

Anyway, focusing on you means, first and foremost, examining why you ignored all the red flags you mention here. And don't settle on, "It was something different." Go deeper than that into your psyche. Chances are it will require therapy. And I actually highly recommend taking that route if you can, because it will be extra support for you.

And then there is the validation part that I just wrote about in jean's thread. That part of their draw is because, when they are pulling on us, we feel validated. Well, once we decide that they are incapable of validating us - because we don't need external validation anymore - they lose a significant portion of their magic.

I believe that you are actually obsessed with what you *thought* she was, not what she actually is. Because she presented you with your dream girl through mirroring (ask away about that if you want) she gave you a false impression of herself. And what you're mourning today is actually a woman you had long created in your dreams, but not the real person who has put you through all this. That part will be very difficult to get over. Because you're obsessing over something that is deeply embedded in your own psyche. So just remember that it isn't her you're obsessing about and don't be afraid of it or think that by allowing her back you'll soothe your pain. And I can promise you that over time it will mellow. That part has taken me the longest, actually.

velouria wrote:In my case I was so drawn to my exBPD because I was dissatisfied with my life and, for a long time, was waiting for someone to come along and "finish the puzzle" so to speak. And he was so effusive and sweet and validating that I was certain he was the one. I saw my future blossoming into everything I thought I wanted it to be. Key word "thought." Because in reality my life was pretty awesome as it was, it was just me who was dissatisfied.

Hey again Velouria

This post had a lot of resonance with me. I wondered if you had come across Sandra L Brown's work on relationships with pathologicals and others with PDs? Her focus is on the female partner of men, not on the men themselves. In other words, she looks at the common features of these women (who, she says, do not resemble the women she has met in shelters etc who were victims of domestic abuse) - but have a different mix of character traits - one of which is their capacity for 'fantasy' or 'magical thinking'.

The article I was thinking about is here:- it is long but I hope it might help you and others!

Fantasy And Its’ Effect On Your Reality

Women who are in relationships with pathologicals test very high in the trait of ‘fantasy.’ Fantasy is not just merely wishful thinking. Fantasy has other components in it that effects your here and now life.

Fantasy is often associated with the future and in some ways the past. Here’s how… women often stay in pathological relationships because they feel panic or fear of abandonment when she or the pathological tries to end the relationship. She ends up re-contacting or allowing re-contact because of these feelings of fear/panic/abandonment.

Abandonment is an early childhood feeling. As adults we are not technically capable of being abandoned (unless you are for instance medically dependent.) The reason we aren’t capable of being abandoned as adults is that as mentally healthy adults, we really can’t be abandoned in the childhood sense. That feeling is an early childhood feeling usually associated with a time of adult or parental abandonment. It is an age-regression feeling–something that pulls you back to your childhood or a very young emotional state.

The feeling of ‘ending’ a male relationship often subconsciously sets off childhood feelings of abandonment. These are past associations and it taps into fantasy that it is happening all over again when it really isn’t. The previous male in your life who did abandon you as a child (for instance) is not the same thing as a pathological leaving your adult life.

But inside, internally, the child feeling is so strong that it feels like a ‘hole in the soul.’ The fantasy of THIS being the same as THAT takes hold and your panic makes you go back or allow him back in.

Fantasy is also future oriented. Fairy tales are fantasy and are based on “Once upon a time….and happily ever after” which is all the good stuff that ‘might’ happen in the future. Women stay in relationships with pathologicals based on a lot of ‘fantasy future betting’ — that is:

he might stop acting pathological
he might marry me
he might stop cheating
he might tell the truth
Fantasy betting is a lot like gambling…betting on a future that is not likely to happen with a pathological.

Why? Because pathology is the inability to change and sustain change, grow in any meaningful way, and the inability to for him to see how his behavior negatively effects others.

But women also stay in pathological relationships based on ‘projected fantasies’ that is, she fantasizes he will be happy with the NEXT woman and she will get all his good traits and none of his bad. This too is fantasy….that his pathology somehow will not effect HER the way it effects you. (You can’t turn pathology on and off like a light switch!)

Here’s some info: Pathology Effects EVERYONE the SAME!! (Unless she’s pathological as well–then who cares if he goes on to have a relationship worthy of a Jerry Springer Show?).

Women fantasize that this ‘abandonment’ feeling will effect her the way the childhood abandonment did. (And it will not–just as an FYI for you).
Women fantasize that he will be different with them. If he is truly pathological he is hard-wired. This IS his DNA.
Women fantasize that he will be happy in the future and she is missing out on something. If he is truly pathological, his patterns don’t change.
Fantasy is not the here and now. It’s not being present in the real life that is happening around you in this moment. It’s ‘out there somewhere’ kind of thinking. Come back to what’s real right now. List the 5 most real points about him right here:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Now stand back, step out of the childhood feelings, and look at the list with adult eyes. You can’t be abandoned as an adult because where ever you go, there you are and you are all you need as an adult. You don’t have dependency needs as an adult like you did as a child. To be abandoned is to be dependent on the one who is abandoning. Adults are not dependent.

Your real life is going on right NOW while you are in your head about his drama and the pathological intrigue. You are MISSING your real life that is happening right now! Drama, obsession and intrusive thoughts are usually about fantasy–the past or the future. It sure isn’t about this present moment and what’s happening right now. Such as, you might be ignoring:

your own health
your own self-care and happiness
maybe that of your children and friends
…because of how much time you spend in fantasy. Fantasy is telling you ‘just a little longer and he’ll get it and then I’ll have the life I really want.’

Your life is right now–not back there and not up there in the future.

Normal, what a great article! I have to say that there is one thing I didn't see in there, which for me was the sense of failure for never actually rendering the promise of the relationship. It could be in there, granted, but I didn't see it and I found that to be my biggest tether to the relationship. If it didn't work, then there was something wrong with me. Now, I had never experienced this in any other relationship prior, nor had I ever experienced such deeply felt pain during a break-up. So I believe that the feeling of failure is definitely tied to everything mentioned in the article, somewhere between past and future fantasy.

And I thought this was especially poignant:

• Women fantasize that this ‘abandonment’ feeling will effect her the way the childhood abandonment did. (And it will not – just as an FYI for you).
• Women fantasize that he will be different with them. (If he is truly pathological he is hard-wired. This IS his DNA.)
• Women fantasize that he will be happy in the future and she is missing out on something. (If he is truly pathological, his patterns don’t change.)
• Fantasy is not the here and now. It’s not being present in the real life that is happening around you in this moment. It’s ‘out there somewhere’ kind of thinking. (Come back to what’s real right now.)

I'm sure this article would help a lot of the Non women on this site. Not sure how it would relate to the men.

velouria wrote:If it didn't work, then there was something wrong with me. Now, I had never experienced this in any other relationship prior, nor had I ever experienced such deeply felt pain during a break-up. So I believe that the feeling of failure is definitely tied to everything mentioned in the article, somewhere between past and future fantasy.

Normal, you are a wealth of insight!

The pity thing actually did come into play. In fact, I couldn't tell you the exact moment, but I do remember realizing that I actually pitied him, I remember being conscious of this feeling, and I remember it marking my progression away from him, because there was no way I could ever consciously be in a relationship with a grown man that I *pitied*. That was just too much for me. And too counteractive to the life that I wanted for myself, whether real or fantasy-driven.

Yesterday an electrician was here all day. I have a rescue kitty who is a doll but is also deathly afraid of the slightest thing. So he spent the whole day under the bed and didn't come out until several hours after the electrician had left. When he came out I showered him with love and treats, of course, because he'd been cramped up in a dark place for so long. And I thought, I spent some time doing this for the ex. He'd sock himself away, ignore me completely, for days on end, regardless of our schedule, and when he'd come out, I'd shower him with love and treats so he'd remember that it's not so bad in the outside world. The difference is that he is a grown man nearly 4 decades old and my cat is a pea-brained mammal. Trust me, my method for greeting him upon his return only lasted a few months. I came to realize that it didn't matter what I did or how I reacted, he was going to behave how he was going to behave. Like, the lady says, it's hardwired.

Normal, thanks so much for that article. I agree with Velouria that it is very insightful. And yes, Velouria, I believe it does apply equally to men. Certainly, the notion that we BPD partners live partly in the past (needlessly fearing the pain of childhood abandonment which cannot reoccur) and partly in the future (fantasizing that things will improve) applied to me.

The charm of the article is that it explains so clearly how refusing to live in the present -- a criticism that therapists normally target at BPDs -- may apply equally to us partners, especially those of us having some codependency traits. Absent the fantasies maintained by both parties, the toxic relationship cannot be sustained because one party would walk away.

I imagine that even a healthy partner like Ontheway can identify with that message. He very candidly describes the fantasy he experienced -- and is still haunted by -- in his statement that "... although I hadn't wanted her before, now I really wanted her. A year after we had first met..I was/am now obsessed with her. Everything about her." Perhaps, then, he too will learn something helpful from the article. Again, thanks for sharing it with us, Normal.

Velouria, I'm sorry but I'm confused. Was it the cat or electrician that you showered with affection and treats?

V

Yes Downtown - it is an interesting thought isn't it? I am also interested to learn whether the kitten or the electrician benefitted from Velouria's attentions!

The electrician was befitted with a hefty check! The kitty received the treats and love.