What to do with my daughter?

Over the last 15 years it seems that every time I talk to a therapist about my daughter they give me another disorder they think might be her problem. I’ve heard she has Associative Disorder, Schizophrenia, Schizoid Personality Disorder, Sexual Addiction, and now Borderline Personality Disorder. If you will bear with me I will describe my daughter’s actions and perhaps someone can give me some ideas.

My daughter was born with a cleft lip and a couple other minor physical problems. I adored my little girl, but for some reason I couldn't get her mother to take her child. If I tried to put her daughter in her lap, her mother wouldn’t even lift her arms up to hold her little girl. When my daughter was 2 months old her mother began her promiscuity and disappeared with my daughter and her brother, and I wasn't to see her again for 4 years. Apparently, when my daughter was 6 months old she had to go in for the first of her operations on her lip. However, between 2 months and 6 months when she got to the hospital, she had actually lost weight and weighed less than her birth weight. They had to keep her in 2 extra weeks to build her up before they operated. The 3 weeks she was in the hospital her mother didn’t go once to ser her daughter and when it was time to leave they couldn’t find her mother and she was put in a foster home. About 3 years latter her mother came back to me, pregnant with some other guys baby, but I decided to take her back in order to get the children out of the foster homes and be a father to the new baby. We did get the children back. Over the next 6 years her mother continued with her promiscuity, once being gone for a year and-a-half while I raised the babies on my own, but I hung in there in order to hold the family together. When my daughter was 10 her mother disappeared with the children again. I did not see them again until she was 14. As soon as I found them my ex-wife sent all four children up to live with me. My daughter was ecstatic because she said she hated her mother and would only refer to her as “the slut”. My daughter and I however got along fabulously and she became my little shadow. Even until she graduated from high school her friends would say all she ever talked about was me. However, at 14 my daughter had no friends her age. Her cleft was so bad she felt the only ones that would accept her were the 5 and 6 year old children she played with in the neighborhood. Whenever she met anyone she would immediately put her hand to her mouth and she said she was constantly picked on at school. So when she was 15 I used all of our savings to get her the long awaited operation to close her lip. What her brothers and I wouldn’t find out until 3 years later, the day of her graduation, was that 2 months after her operation, my daughter began with the promiscuity. My daughter knew that I had spent all those years enduring her mother’s constant infidelities, so she chose not to say anything to me. The first was an 11 year old boy who she rode her bike a mile-and-a-half up to see. She told me latter she just wanted a boyfriend like everyone else and when she tried to use her new lips to kiss him things got out of hand. He said he wouldn't be her boyfriend unless they had sex. Afterwards she would brag to everyone how much she loved him and he loved her and they were going to get married one day. That lasted 3 times until his parents caught her with him and she was called a tramp and all kinds of names and they threatened to call the police. That devastated my daughter. After that she went crazy with the boys. The boys would knock on her window at night and she would go to a football field near by to service them, sometimes 3 or 4 boys at a time.

On the day of her graduation from high school, the first thing I noticed was my daughter sat in the very back of the rest of the students and 3 chairs away from the next closest student. She was crying when she got on stage. We found out afterwards, she sat where she did because none of the other kids wanted to sit next to the “whore”. As she walked up to the stage the others were calling her whore and slut. When she came out afterwards she had absolutely no friends to go see, so came up to me and started to hug me while she cried and cried and she wouldn’t let me go. Every time I told her how proud I was of her she cried even more. I think she knew then she was going to tell us what was going on. Later that day she told us of the 200 or more times with well over 100 boys. I didn’t handle it well I’m sure. A week later her and her brothers are at a camp ground and my daughter had one of these boys come down and she had sex with him in a tent right next to her brothers, They said their sister was intentionally trying to make sure they heard everything she was doing. One week they are playing with their wonderful sister, with absolutely no idea as to the things she was doing, and the next she is doing what they considered the most disgusting thing they had ever heard. Since that night neither one has said one word to her in 15 years. Then, over the next couple weeks she methodically went through the only friends she had left and did similar things. Then she took off onto the streets and it escalated even more.

What strikes me though is I honestly don’t believe it was the sex she was after. For the last 18 years my daughter has only gone a handful of days where, in her mind, she was not able to call someone her boyfriend and profess her undying love for him. There was the father of one of her children that beat her and left her lying unconscious on the side of the road, but she went back to him because “he didn’t really mean it” and “he really does love me”. There was the pimp, who she defrauded welfare in order to give him gifts, and she in turn was required to turn tricks for him, but she loved him and she swore he loved her, and I could go on and on. Any boy that was with her more than one night she would say they loved her, and if she didn’t have any one she started going through her class book making phone calls or standing outside of bars. She had two babies 10 and 12 years ago, and each time presented them to me two weeks after they were born, but she wouldn’t care for them. Eventually she went back on the streets and passed custody of her babies over to me. That was 10 years ago and she only came twice 9 years ago to see them. With the exception of her older brother no one has seen or heard from her for the last eight years until a few months ago.

We now find out that 6 years ago she married a fellow. This fellow would get angry and walk down the block smashing in car windows and he and my daughter were constantly at each others throats, yet she married him anyway. My daughter has the foulest mouth you can imagine. Four years ago my daughter left her husband, moved in with her oldest brother, and started an affair with another guy, (who of course she was totally in love with even though he already had a live in girlfriend and only saw my daughter for sex), but at the same time she was going through other guys. Then her estranged husband sent a mail message to my oldest boy saying he was coming up to kill him, his wife and unborn child, and their little one year old girl. Then a couple months later her new lover beat her up and the next day she went back to her husband. For the last four years my daughter has been under lock and key. She is only allowed to play computer games and watch TV at night. She is not allowed to go anywhere without him. He takes her to work and picks her up, and she is not allowed to go to a store by herself. If she talks to another guy in a store he starts calling her a whore and a slut.

When we finally found her after eight years I sent her a couple of letters. The first I told her I knew about this boy threatening two of my other grand-children and he was not to come near her children, but I spelled out how she might one day start a relationship with them. The second was a Valentines Day card where I told her all about her children and what they’ve been doing for the last 10 years. I told her how much her Dad still loved her and that I had always been there for her. After not hearing back from her for a few weeks, I sent her a third letter inviting her to come to dinner to see her children. Finally I got an e-Mail back, the first communication with my daughter in eight years, but I could only describe it as the ranting of an insane person. Now her brother, who tried to help his sister when she left this guy, and whose family her husband threatened to kill, is now a liar, a thief, and cheats on his wife, none of which is true. I am now the worst person there ever was. But my daughter describes over and over again how great her husband is, making him appear as some kind of god. At least eight or nine times she describes how happy she is and how “most people would love to have a relationship such as theirs”, and that her husband is “true blue”. The letter is full of contradictions. First I stole the children from her, but latter she says she did a very noble thing by passing them over to me. First she said she didn’t regret the things she did because it led her to her wonderful husband and then she said she was afraid to try and explain the things to her children. It was full of fantasies and movie clichés and rambled all over the place. She would say things she would know that I knew weren’t true but she said them anyway. She gives three of the stupidest reasons why she can’t come to see the children after eight years. It appears obvious the reality is that this kid she’s with will not let her go since he is not invited.

I sent an e-Mail back disputing everything she said by reminding her of her history and things she said to me. Her response, the second and last e-Mail from her, was where she accused me of “bashing” her and she wasn’t going to talk to me any more.

In the first letter she signed it with her real first name and the second she signed it with the name she used with all the boys. The point is that my daughter is a 33 year old women and I thought I was reading letters from a petulant child. She played silly games in the letters. She used a screen name with her husband’s last name, when her legal name is still my last name. Instead of calling me Dad, she called my by my first name, which she has never done.

Now I’m thinking this girl can’t be as happy as she lets on. I tried to call her once and got her voice mail and her voice just sounded dead. No one in her family will talk to her, other than me (who she hates now); she has no friends, no children. She got some kind of social disease where she’ll never have children again. My daughter-in-law says she has genital herpes. For the first 15 years of her life she’s known as a “hair-lip” and for the last 18 she’s known as the “whore”. She’s been through hundreds of boys. As of 10 years ago she was arrested dozens of time for theft, prostitution, forgery, drugs, welfare fraud, robbery, and spent about 3 months in jail for 2 of those things. She’s had dozens and dozens of jobs in the last 15 years. She had a good job 4 years ago, but her husband made her quit it because her lover worked there. Now she’s on her 4th job since then, being fired from three of them. Regardless of what she says she has to know what this guy she’s with is like. And she’s been beaten, raped, and hospitalized by these boys. Her teeth were never completely repaired from the cleft lip, because after she left the first time she took a pair of pliers and ripped out her own braces.

My questions are. First, how could anyone, for 2 ½ years appear to her brothers and I as a sweet innocent young child and yet at the same time be going through all the boys she did. Two weeks before she told us what was going on she was giving her little brother piggy-back rides up to the store and playing in the living room with his action figures. When she was 18, I recall she got a paper-cut on her finger and she stomped her feet, and ran to me to “fix it”. And not a week before it came out she swore at the dinner table one night that she was going to stay a virgin until the day she got married. Throughout this time she still referred to her mother as a slut. If her mother was a slut, and my daughter was much worse than her mother ever was, exactly what did she think of herself.

Second, is this situation BPD or something else, and if it’s BPD, is it possible for her to live out her days as she is now without anyone doing anything?

How can you help a girl that apparently feels that to seek help means bringing up her past when she has been so passionately trying to avoid it? For 15 years she’s refused to talk to anyone about what she’s gone through and if you try and trap her into saying something she runs away.

Is the mind able to shut off all the bad things and find happiness in the current situation? She’s been working at the same job for about a year now and apparently her husband is now working.

How can a mother completely shut out their children for eight years, not even a simple birthday card when she was always not more than, at most 30 or 40 miles away from them?

And finally, is there anything I can do to try and help this young lady? Oddly, as much as she says she hates me, she’s never strayed far from home. I sent her two letters before I sent the e-Mail, and both times, two days after the letter were sent, I get a mysterious call in the middle of the night were the caller just stayed on the phone and didn’t say anything. For some reason, even though you would have thought she would have, she wouldn’t take her husband’s name when she got married but kept our family name. When both children were born she reappeared on my doorstep a couple weeks following their birth to present them to me, and of course she ultimately gave her children to me. I keep telling her how much I love her but now she believes I’m just saying that to try to manipulate her. That and 15 years ago when I told her I loved her she said “how can anyone love me after the things I’ve done”. I'm curious as to how others finally got help. This is not a child I can deal with but a 33 year old woman.

Sorry for rambling. Thank you in advance for any suggestions you may have.

The link you provided is without hyperbole, a laundry list of all the things that my daughter has experienced in her life. I could give multiple examples of nearly everything on the list and I have not been around her all that much in the last 15 years. I thought it significant the mention of someone with this affliction acting like a child. The two e-Mails she sent could easily have been authored by a 12 year old girl who was describing some fantasy world which an adult would easily have seen otherwise.

I’m not going to give up on that young lady. She means too much to me. I believe there still exists in her some kind of bond with me, whether she wishes to admit it or not. Two months ago she appeared at my door, (with her husband in tow), after they located her for child support. She wanted to see the children which I couldn’t allow just like that. I recall the first thing out of her mouth was “this is my husband”. However, she didn’t say his name like most people would, she was just trying, it appeared, merely to boast about HAVING a husband.

Since then, the children and I moved and we saw her drive by our new home. (She had to drive 40 miles to get here). Then there were the two phone calls following the two letters I sent where she hung on the line and didn’t say anything. And finally, her two e-Mail messages she sent. The first message, she managed to harp a total of 14 times in a 1 ½ page letter how wonderful her husband was and how happy she was, yet 12 times slammed both me and her brothers. When I responded pointing out that the things she was saying just weren’t true, her second e-Mail accused me of “bashing” her and she said wasn’t going to talk anymore. Just like a little child would do.

You are right about another thing that makes the situation even more difficult. Yes, I believe she is sheltering herself in some kind of “cocoon”. But her husband began this by holding her away from everyone. The last time she tried to get away he threatened to kill my son’s wife and two children because her thought they were keeping her away from him, and he’s made no secret that he has a weapon in the apartment. He would never allow her to seek counseling because he may lose his “procession” if she was able to get better.

I thought I might be able to use what I thought was some instinctive bond a mother should have with her children to draw her out, and that has not worked. So should I e-Mail over to her your link to her to see if she can read for herself about the problem she may be having?

Thank you very much for your time.

Ship her away.

I really, really do appreciate your input. In deciphering your comments and researching BPD on the internet, it appears that every symptom described, my daughter has experienced at one time in her life. Remarkably however is those same symptoms can easily be applied to her mother as well.

When her mother was three years old she contracted Rheumatic Fever. For the next 3 years she was bed ridden and for the next year was confined to a wheel chair. They said they would put her by the windows so she could see her sister and brother outside playing, thus very possibly the birth of the feelings of abandonment. Afterwards she became a “Daddy’s” girl where she would go everywhere her father would go and she obsessively attached herself to him. Into her thirties my ex-wife was still looked at and treated as a child. After the birth of my daughter, my ex-wife began the promiscuity. Over the last 30 years I don’t believe there has been more than a week or two where my wife hasn’t had someone in her life. She’s on her 4th husband now. And finally, she has no connection with her children, she passed them to me 20 years ago and even until this day, unless you take the children to her, she is not about to go out of her way to see them.

We always thought it was “like mother, like daughter”. I can understand how a child can learn bad parenting skills from their parents, but how is it a child can “learn” to have no feelings for their children. How can you “learn” to remain childlike so late in your life? How can a person “learn” to suffer anxiety attacks if they do not have anyone in their life?

Wouldn’t it be more likely that some physiological malady was passed from mother to daughter where my daughter was predisposed to experience this type of behavior and it was triggered by her mother abandoning her when she was young? Everything seems like just too much of a coincidence.

The tack I've decided to take with my daughter is to e-Mail her and try and explain some of the things I've learned over the past month. I figured that if nothing else, she should at least have hope. To know that there IS a way where all the bad feelings can go away, and to let her know that I will always be there for her if she needs me.

Thank you again for your input.

rubystar wrote:

Daniel wrote:Ship her away.

Daniel you seem to want some attention today, are you okay?
I noticed that you like to post things for shock value rather than to be helpful.

The things you post aren't even funny or clever. They come across as really corny to be honest. What I'm trying to say is that you're not very good at being shocking.

I do hope at some point you are able to get help for your problem, and find something more meaningful and productive to do with your time. Good luck.

rubystar, I found all of your observations to be true. The young lady does need help. But she has to choose it.
Grandpa, Has she ever seen a psych? Therapy and medication is what I would think this young lady needs. Emotionally she is a child, repeating what she seen her mother do.

Daniel, I know you try to help. I know, but others might not know.

Peace to all,
red

Did I get in the middle of something here? "Ship her away". That's something to consider I guess, but then it's what everyone has been doing to her for the last 15 years. Maybe if there was one person in all those years that she felt was going to stand behind her regardless of what she did and wasn't looking for something from her, maybe she wouldn't be in the situation she finds herself in. I failed her I know because I had to concentrate on the welfare of her children. She's worth saving, she my daughter. She's not something to be thrown out like yesterday's garbage. I don't beleive she knows what is happening to her and why it's happening. No she hasn't sought any help. That's what I would like to find a way to push her towards. Thank you...

Grandpa,

You could point out her unhappiness, or her dreams of what she would like her life to be like. You could ask her to see a therapist or psych with you. If you are up front about it, and fair, she just might go with her dad. You seemed to be one of the few that can reach her. Of course she is important, she is your daughter, and you sound like a good caring father. Don't give up.

JMHO,
red

I would have no problems with any conditions, as long as it got her to see someone. However, there are three things that prevent her from doing this. One is her lack of trust of anyone other than her husband. She has been locked in that apartment for 3 years now hearing nothing about how great her husband is and how rotten every one in her family is. I may have an in to her over-coming this. The second is her husband. He is NOT going to give up his property. And the third is her fear that if she were to leave him the "attacks" will begin again where she might feel compelled to find a replacement and the whole thing starts again.

This BPD is all new to me. It's something that has just come to my attention over the last couple of weeks. There appears to be quite a bit of ambiguity as to whether its beginning is emotional or physiological. I just have a tough time believing she “learned” the worthless she feels, the urgent need to find replacements for these boys if one leaves, and the childish behavior from her mother. If it was physiological, and a heavy dose of Prozac could possibly stop the anxiety attacks, then it would leave just dealing with her husband.

Once again, thank you very much for all your help.

Grandpa0594 wrote:We always thought it was “like mother, like daughter”. I can understand how a child can learn bad parenting skills from their parents, but how is it a child can “learn” to have no feelings for their children. How can you “learn” to remain childlike so late in your life? How can a person “learn” to suffer anxiety attacks if they do not have anyone in their life?

maybe i might seem similar to the two women in your life, or no. i can say, i really had nothing to say in response to your descriptions. till i read what you posted in the paragraph above. there IS a point i wana try and make, however, my ability to communicate from MY point of view and get it so the READERS point of view sees through me.......is far from easy and things NEVER get communicated and interpreted and understood in the mannor the communicator is aiming for. ie, you may not be colour blind and i may be colour blind, and i can describe all i want what 'red and green' look to me, that doesn't change how you view red and green. its still red....and green.... to you.

anways...

1-how does a child learn to have no feelings for their kids?

how about i tell you how >I< am towards kids? it won't answer your question thoroughly and will only be applicable to me. but i hope it adds a new point of view to your circumstance.

i HATE children. HATE...HATE......>>>>>HATE<<<<<<<<< children. i DO NOT >>EVER<< want to procreate and have kids. that doesn't mean i want to become celebate till the day i die. i'm a biological lifeform like everything else that has it pre-programmed to go get laid. the only thing that has changed in time is the ability to prevent pregnancy, but still enjoy the process. so...has there ever been times when the words 'uh oh' have crossed my mind? yeah. its happened more than once. and each time it has happened i've had the exact same thoughts go through my mind. no, not abortion (and i AIN'T gona go into that topic. that belongs on another forum). all i can think are if that child lives, doesn't get miscarried or die after birth, and grows to be an adult.....that child will inherit EVERYTHING >>I<< have problems with. both physical and mental and emotional. that child will NOT be 'happy'. one, i did NOT 'want' that child first off. two. children ALWAYS inherit the sins of their fathers and mothers. three. i cannot provide for that child what it needs to grow up as close to 'normalicy' as possible. four. it doesn't matter if i keep the kid, tried to abort the kid but was unsuccessful for whatever reason, or give the kid up for adoption.....when time passes, that kid WILL find out one way or another i did NOT want it, love it, need it and that kid WILL be EXACTLY like me, but a $#%^ ###$ load worse than i came out. plus, i hate the human population. i would so LOVE if the story 'children of men' came to pass and humanity became sterile. i can't stand the crying. screaming. cleaning. level of ignorance with intelligence. i've hated children ever since >>I<< was a kid and what they did to me in school. i have NEVER forgiven them since then. since then, i have NEVER been 'normal' according to society.

and what is ONE of the things i've since 'learned' to do?? grow a callouse. no longer have empathy or sympathy for others. only vengance and anger with hatred. the only form of 'pain relief' that would 'work' now, is the satisfaction of vengence on those around me regardless if they are the origination of the scars i have, or the aggrivants to old wounds. hell, i'd even go as far as to seek vengence on humanity as a whole regardless if i ever cross paths with anyone or not. i see it as a potential problem of high risk, and it needs to be eliminated. its what humanity does already as whole does it not?? epidemics and deiseses, drugs legal or not, environmental issues, etc. etc. etc. how many issues humanity acts upon regardless of the amount of factual info is established. the smallest potential possibility of a 'threat' is isolated and treated as the next armageddon. so.....i see humanity as a threat to biological existence after what was done to me as a kid. since i'm not a nuclear scientist and can't nuke the entire world, i sure as hell will NOT have any kids. THAT...i CAN do....and if i DO have a kid by accident or no, that kid WILL inherit the cursed life i've been stricken with, and be miserable as hell. i don't care if it came from my flesh and bones. i hate people. i hate kids. i hate humanity.



2-how do i learn to remain 'childlike' so late in life???

do you know how to read and write?
do you know the concepts of mathematics?
do you know how to add two and two?
.....what 'two' is?
.....what a 'plus' and 'equals' are?
ok......lets assume you can answer 'yes' to all of the above questions.

now, i want you to calculate the integral of the sin of 1/x from 0 to 10 and give me the answer.

......oh?? are you unable to give me the answer to the mathematical question above? but why not? you know how to read, write, add....why can't you apply all that to the above mathematical equation?? you're an adult are you not?

ah!!! you didn't learn geometry, trigonometry, and calculus. (i'm not saying you didn't in real life, just for hypothecial purposes at the moment).

now reapply that in a different pair of shoes. i've seen people interact and socialize. i've watched my parents how they handle situations. i'm 30 now. i've HAD TO interact on one level or another amongst humanity. and look where i'm at now. i can't maintain friendships, employment, housing, finances, bills, regular 'cleanliness' presentations according to society, and even still have problems with morals and ethics now. thats just to name a few.

just because its educated that murder is a sin...as i get older and more comprehensible in some thought processes...the 'survival' mode kicks in. i may view you as a potential life threat to me. now, yes, there are MANY ways to 'resolve' the threat. what do ALL humans do as almost first nature?? look for the easiest fastest route with the fastest results out of a situation. so. you are a threat to my life. what is the easiest quickest way to illiminate that threat? kill you. will i see it as wrong? no. i'm just looking out for myself. another very good example was mary shelley's frankestein. the creation wanted to 'live' and survive. the creation viewed surrounding humanity as a threat. to him, it was self defense. to everyone else, its murder. did the creation ever 'learn' morals and ethics upon his 'birth'?? or did he have to learn survival on his own account?

i have NO IDEA how else to explain to you how IT DOES happen in life where one reaches a biological adulthood age, but mentally, is still the age of a kindergardener. i'm not including the incidences where the person may have a mental retardation or learning disability or neurological disorder or etc. there are HOW MANY variables and factors that are not even KNOWN and included in the calculations that you need to keep in consideration. you may have learned how to 'love' your child. but what do you use to define 'love'? roof over the head? illnesses treated? roots of education established? never an empty stomach nor bare cupboard? warm bed? toys to play with? etc etc etc etc??? now let me tell you how >I< view a few things? if i 'loved' my child, that child's life will be ended. that child will not know what 'pain' is. better yet, that child will not exist and not be conceieved. thats the approach i have on kids. and if that kid is 'forced' to grow up to adulthood, i will NOT 'shelter' that kid. i WILL let that kid go through hell's fury and get education in that approach versus the 'shelter' approach my parents tried on me. that made it worse as i'm now viewed as a 'child' to society when i HONESTLY do NOT know how to handle situations like other 'adults' do. and now, now i'm viewed as a reject, an oddball, abnormal, and a waste of time and burden when i don't appear to have a retardation or learning disorder or aspergers but still act as a 4 year old in a 30 year old body. and because the learning level and age gap are soooo far apart, its automatically assumed because i'm 30, i can learn stuff that for 4 yearo lds, AND, assumed i already have and stuff for 30 year old learning levels is shoved in my face and expected that i'll 'get it'.

.....the same way i'd expect YOU to instantly be able to tell me the answer to the calc q i stated earlier. there IS an answer, but i'm not saying what it is....and see if a point is comprehended.




3-how do i 'learn' to suffer anxiety attacks when i have no social support???


i think you just answered your question within your question. lets say i get my dream wish, i get to live out in b.f.e. away from humanity and society. in my ultimate wetdream fantasy, i remain fine. happy. 'ok'. but i know that will not happen. even IF noone is around to be the originator of a painful encounter, i'm STILL gona suffer from anxiety. take a look at all the records of jails and isolation. theres shelter. food. and other basic bare minimal life survival essentials. but what happens?? the inmates go 'insane' don't they? they crave human contact even if it is a human violation encounter?

now, i'm not gona go into the pros and cons of remaining in solitude versus always have social support. cause i WILL be a hypocrite and argue how humans need social support and contact from others to go onwards in life....but argue for the other side begging for society to ###$ off and leave me alone so >i< can survive. for me, anxiety hits regardless if i have social support or not. $#%^ happens, and lots of people are there, i go into heart attack mode. $#%^ happens, and NO ONE is there, i STILL go into heart attack mode. maybe if you stopped $#%^ from happeneing to me the heart attack modes would lighten up? MAYBE.......

Grandpa0594 wrote:Wouldn’t it be more likely that some physiological malady was passed from mother to daughter where my daughter was predisposed to experience this type of behavior and it was triggered by her mother abandoning her when she was young? Everything seems like just too much of a coincidence.

ok. we'll look at my mother. she was horrifically abused as a little girl by her mother. she had $#%^ for a child hood. she was abused. she was raped. she was isolated. she was beaten. she was starved. she was teased. just to name a few. her mother hated her. her mother wanted her dead. yet why do i look like a xerox copy of BOTH my mother and grandmother?????? my mother may not have abused me, but DID NOT know how to raise me because of how her mother raised her. and look at me now. i can garuntee you if i have to raise a child, even if that child is not my own, that child will be miserable. how much $#%^ i can list that i was supposed to learn as a child, and never did cause neither my parents 'taught' me those whatever issues. and neither did my parents learn from their parents either, on how many issues...



now if you wana bring up physiology, ok....sure. my mother has how many neurological and biochemical and thyroidal medical probs to name a few. each and every single damn one, as i grow older, is popping up and causing me problems. my dad, he has how many OTHER biological issues, allergies, lung issues...that i'm finding i have too now. thats just the physiological $#%^. i'm like a xerox copy of my parents.

ok, so now you wonder if mental issues are in the genes? on that issue....i can argue just as ferverantly from both sides. either you can or can't base it on the genes. with that question, i would lean more towards taking into account a certain set of specified constant variables. ie, is the kid raised by their biological parents, adoptive parents, or biological relatives? is the kid encountering the most similar to least similar set of environmental surroundings as their parents?...like one may have had to walk to school in 4ft snow for 5 miles while the other gets to stay home for 3 days under 4 inches when only less than a mile away.


as far as everything seeming like too much coincidence??? dude, i can rattle off several reactions all at once.
1-not enough factual variables have been taken into account yet
2-an immediate reaction as such with little time on consideration has a higher potential of displaying that a decision has already been acheived regardless if all facts have been evaluated or made known yet...which either means you're a narrow-minded fool or are truely ignorant of a lot of different areas and why you come to the conclusions you have. (no, i'm not looking to start a fight here or start the insults flying. i'm just coughing up whats on my mind atm)
3-your looking for an easy stamp book diagnosis answer just like how many doctors do in hopes that its the majic pill route and fixes all problems (just like the point i was trying to mention earlier. the easy quick fix route)


i could go on and on and on, but its after 4am in the morning here my time and i'm starting to ramble and drift.....

Regardless of what people may have told you in the past you make an awful lot of good points. The fact is I agree with a lot of the things you say. Have you ever been in a store and there are 4 or 5 kids screaming their heads off? Those children were not born to behave like that, they were taught, in a sense, to be like that by their parents. What I try to look at however, is that if there are 100 kids in the store, 4 or 5 are screaming and being brats, that means there are 95 of those 100 that are fairly decent, if not darn good kids.

When I first got my grandchildren when they were babies, I had no bond to them, they weren’t biologically mine. I had a responsibility to raise them; I had to “put a roof over their heads”. So I went through the motions that I figured a mother would do. Fed them, changed their diapers, and rocked them to sleep at night. Then I saw something I thought was remarkable. It was the very first night with my grand-daughter. She fell asleep in my arms. Tom Jones was playing on the stereo and within minutes she drifted off. I wasn’t her mother or father; I was just this person who chose to care for them. A child will without question bond to anyone who gives comfort to them. Soon I got to LIKE rocking her to sleep and within a week or so I would actually look forward to it. I never propped a bottle up for them but would rock them while I fed them

As they grew older I found the trick to raising them was to make sure the rules were spelled out clearly and if they disobeyed them they went to their corner to sit. No excuses and no exceptions. Where rules were concerned I figured I would start with the Ten Commandments, even though I was never all that religious. Then there was to be no screaming if they didn’t get their way, they were to be polite, they were to say their prayers, no swearing, and they were to be kind to others, particularly those that had troubles. I started teaching them these lessons as soon as I felt they were able to understand and it went on for about maybe 6 months to a year. I also made sure I complied to those same rules which is the missing piece a lot of parents fail to do.

Since then however, these children have been a joy to be around. How many adults do you know that will love you for no other reason than because someone bestowed upon you the title of parent? They don’t care whether I’m tall or short, thin or fat, or even if I had six ears popping out all over my head. Children do not judge you. I walk through the door and they come running to jump in my arms to give Grandpa Hugs and Kisses. You will never hear my children yell in a store. If you go through a door the same time they do, they will stand back and hold the door for you. It’s always “Yes, Ma’am” and “No Ma’am” to anyone they meet. And even in restaurants they stop to say their prayers before they eat. Yesterday my grand-daughter found 3 pennies on the floor at the store and rather than keeping them she took them up to the lady at the counter.

I’m not exaggerating about these children either, and I'm also not naive. It's very possible that all my efforts will one day be mute and they'll grow up to be some reknowned criminal, but at least I can go to my grave with the knowledge that I gave it my best shot. I’m sure it’s not a very “macho” thing for a man to say, but I honestly do love those children with all my heart. Right now in my life, even though the man in me tells me to find a “significant other”, I would rather sit and talk to those kids much more than I would an adult that I would meet in some bar. I don't have to put on some show for these children. Are there bad kids out there? Yes. But a child is what a parent makes of them.

It seems to me you’ve been pretty beaten up all your life. It’s a shame because you sound like a very intelligent girl. The same applies to my daughter but I think you are at least a couple steps ahead of her in that you are out there looking for answers, otherwise you wouldn’t be on this forum. You are wrong about one thing however. I am not looking for a cure-all solution to my daughter. What I’m trying to do is find a way to lead her to the door. I am well aware that the cure itself will not be easy, but I do believe there is a cure. She’s probably afraid enough as it is and I can’t afford to frighten her away from making the first step. So I’m looking for something I can say to her that would convince her to at least move her towards one day feeling better about herself.

Please don’t think for a moment I believe I know what you or my daughter is going through or has been through. That’s my problem here. That’s why I’m trying to understand at least a little so I can try and help.

Thanks for the input and be well.