The difference between rejection and abandonment?

WendyTorrance wrote:Actually, I was trying to gently refer that rejection hurts me more, perhaps because 'abandoment' requires something more, something so rare for me that I can not straightforwardly empathize with it.

"You don't like a fraction of me" Rejection without knowing what else is there. No one knows what it might be. Many questions and a bruised ego. Once again, the failure to open up to someone.
vs.
"You don't like me, fully, for who I am" - I can deal with it.

Now I see what you're saying

I'm sorry, my mind has been very scattered lately.

I see what you're saying, the person hasn't gotten a chance to get to know you yet with rejection. That is more painful for you?

That is interesting. There is no right or wrong way, of course. But for me, its the opposite. If a guy doesn't ask me out for a second date, it hurts a little bit, especially if I liked him, but I'm not crushed by it.

But if I date a guy for 3 months and then he ends it....I am DEVASTATED!!!! Feels like the world is ending.

Its a world of difference. I feel like he's gotten to know me better, we've bonded, then he decides I'm so flawed or worthless he can't continue. It feels like a much deeper form of rejection.

I guess we're all different! Its interesting to see how it works for other people!

For me, it's like when I open myself up to someone completely (emotions, past experiences, future goals, etc), it's terrifying that they could tell me "nope don't like it" and leave. To give my whole self to someone, and for them to not like it would be more painful for me. If someone only knows the tip of the iceberg, I feel like it's more their problem because they didn't take the time to really have those deep conversations.

violet8 wrote:I had read a book once about basically what it means to be and how to be an adult. In it, the author (wish I could remember his name or the book name) recommends some inner child work. One thing I do recall from the book that has stuck with me is that an adult can not be abandoned. That the feeling of abandonment and the abandonment depression in an adult is something triggering the feelings from childhood, that abandonment is really the domain of small children where being rejected by a parent is really a matter of life and death. Having an unhealed wound like this any rejection that we may experience however slight or intense can unleash these feelings.

But adults are still dependent on others for survival. Few people are able to survive without money, and where do you get money? Someone else has to decide to give it to you. Either another person or an organization consisting of people. It's true there's no emotional connection to people's source of income. This is what leads to all kinds of social problems like crime and violence. The world becomes a matter of survival of the fittest, everyone for themselves, eat or be eaten.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I find the whole idea that everyone is supposed to be totally independent and fend for themselves once they turn 18 pretty repulsive. People become emotionally attached to others for a reason. Physical survival still depends in grouping together for the most part. Human beings have never been emotionally wired for being totally alone. We're not like bears. The modern world forces a lot of people to be emotionally alone, but somehow I don't think that's the natural state human beings thrive in.

frostfern wrote:

violet8 wrote:I had read a book once about basically what it means to be and how to be an adult. In it, the author (wish I could remember his name or the book name) recommends some inner child work. One thing I do recall from the book that has stuck with me is that an adult can not be abandoned. That the feeling of abandonment and the abandonment depression in an adult is something triggering the feelings from childhood, that abandonment is really the domain of small children where being rejected by a parent is really a matter of life and death. Having an unhealed wound like this any rejection that we may experience however slight or intense can unleash these feelings.

But adults are still dependent on others for survival. Few people are able to survive without money, and where do you get money? Someone else has to decide to give it to you. Either another person or an organization consisting of people. It's true there's no emotional connection to people's source of income. This is what leads to all kinds of social problems like crime and violence. The world becomes a matter of survival of the fittest, everyone for themselves, eat or be eaten.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I find the whole idea that everyone is supposed to be totally independent and fend for themselves once they turn 18 pretty repulsive. People become emotionally attached to others for a reason. Physical survival still depends in grouping together for the most part. Human beings have never been emotionally wired for being totally alone. We're not like bears. The modern world forces a lot of people to be emotionally alone, but somehow I don't think that's the natural state human beings thrive in.

What's the solution? Communism? Socialism?

justagirl00 wrote:That is interesting. There is no right or wrong way, of course. But for me, its the opposite. If a guy doesn't ask me out for a second date, it hurts a little bit, especially if I liked him, but I'm not crushed by it.

I kinda knew that I would be relatively alone with my opinion.
Rejection is my weakness, and connections deemed as genuine&permanent are actually shallow(?) It's definitely not something I embrace.

frostfern wrote:Human beings have never been emotionally wired for being totally alone. We're not like bears. The modern world forces a lot of people to be emotionally alone, but somehow I don't think that's the natural state human beings thrive in.

I agree. In some ways I feel sorry for such people, seems like the only one they are fooling is themselves. But who knows, unfortunately, we can not exactly see things as others see and experience them.

frostfern wrote:

violet8 wrote:I had read a book once about basically what it means to be and how to be an adult. In it, the author (wish I could remember his name or the book name) recommends some inner child work. One thing I do recall from the book that has stuck with me is that an adult can not be abandoned. That the feeling of abandonment and the abandonment depression in an adult is something triggering the feelings from childhood, that abandonment is really the domain of small children where being rejected by a parent is really a matter of life and death. Having an unhealed wound like this any rejection that we may experience however slight or intense can unleash these feelings.

But adults are still dependent on others for survival. Few people are able to survive without money, and where do you get money? Someone else has to decide to give it to you. Either another person or an organization consisting of people. It's true there's no emotional connection to people's source of income. This is what leads to all kinds of social problems like crime and violence. The world becomes a matter of survival of the fittest, everyone for themselves, eat or be eaten.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I find the whole idea that everyone is supposed to be totally independent and fend for themselves once they turn 18 pretty repulsive. People become emotionally attached to others for a reason. Physical survival still depends in grouping together for the most part. Human beings have never been emotionally wired for being totally alone. We're not like bears. The modern world forces a lot of people to be emotionally alone, but somehow I don't think that's the natural state human beings thrive in.

I don't think this is off topic at all but it's also not what is suggested here. An adult can be hurt and rejected, sure, but abandoned...? If you are fired from a job, you get a new one. If someone rejects you, you mourn the loss and then find someone else. (Easier said than done!). As an adult, it is our responsibility to take care of our emotional and physical needs, it is not our partner's job to do that for us. They are there to share our lives but not be our lives, to help us, but not carry our entire weight. So they can withdraw and sure it will hurt us, but it shouldn't break us. Hope this helps!

justagirl00 wrote:What's the solution? Communism? Socialism?

Not really. Creating more faceless bureaucracies and rules doesn't solve the problem. Safety nets and such are helpful, but they aren't a replacement for human empathy. I don't have a solution.

violet8 wrote:I don't think this is off topic at all but it's also not what is suggested here. An adult can be hurt and rejected, sure, but abandoned...? If you are fired from a job, you get a new one. If someone rejects you, you mourn the loss and then find someone else. (Easier said than done!). As an adult, it is our responsibility to take care of our emotional and physical needs, it is not our partner's job to do that for us. They are there to share our lives but not be our lives, to help us, but not carry our entire weight. So they can withdraw and sure it will hurt us, but it shouldn't break us. Hope this helps!

I think this is a first-world point of view. In parts of the world without much money a lot of people can't take care of themselves. It's not so easy to get a new job if there are no jobs or you don't have enough education for the jobs that do exist. But even in first world places like the US people get screwed. Physically and mentally sick people get screwed. Not everyone can even hold a job.

But back on topic, emotional needs exist due to physical needs. If nobody cares about anyone else physical needs are neglected too, and that leads to death. There's nothing unnatural about wanting to be loved, cared for, etc... It's basic survival instinct. Nobody survives on their own. That's not how human being evolved. We're really not as strong or physically resilient as other animals.

Maybe the problem is more with relying on a partner for emotional needs. Maybe the nuclear family isn't meant for everyone. I mean, people are genetically inclined to want to pair up and have families. It doesn't work out that way for everyone though, no matter how much they crave it. It seems like there should be something else to make up for it in some way. A lot of the time it seems like there isn't. It seems like our culture is a bit messed up. We're way to self-obsessed IMO. Probably most people don't even notice until they go to a third world country and observe the culture - see what things are like in the rest of the world.

In any case, I don't think need for connection is the problem with BPD. The problem is lack of trust combined with more extreme standards than is normal. That's how people are driven away. The idea that having ANY emotional needs is somehow wrong is backwards and counterproductive IMO. To feel that way makes things worse. It becomes a PUSH thing. You start to almost subconsciously resent people for caring too much (because you think it's somehow wrong to be needy at all and you don't trust them) and that makes them not want to care.

frostfern wrote:

violet8 wrote:I don't think this is off topic at all but it's also not what is suggested here. An adult can be hurt and rejected, sure, but abandoned...? If you are fired from a job, you get a new one. If someone rejects you, you mourn the loss and then find someone else. (Easier said than done!). As an adult, it is our responsibility to take care of our emotional and physical needs, it is not our partner's job to do that for us. They are there to share our lives but not be our lives, to help us, but not carry our entire weight. So they can withdraw and sure it will hurt us, but it shouldn't break us. Hope this helps!

I think this is a first-world point of view. In parts of the world without much money a lot of people can't take care of themselves. It's not so easy to get a new job if there are no jobs or you don't have enough education for the jobs that do exist. But even in first world places like the US people get screwed. Physically and mentally sick people get screwed. Not everyone can even hold a job.

But back on topic, emotional needs exist due to physical needs. If nobody cares about anyone else physical needs are neglected too, and that leads to death. There's nothing unnatural about wanting to be loved, cared for, etc... It's basic survival instinct. Nobody survives on their own. That's not how human being evolved. We're really not as strong or physically resilient as other animals.

Maybe the problem is more with relying on a partner for emotional needs. Maybe the nuclear family isn't meant for everyone. I mean, people are genetically inclined to want to pair up and have families. It doesn't work out that way for everyone though, no matter how much they crave it. It seems like there should be something else to make up for it in some way. A lot of the time it seems like there isn't. It seems like our culture is a bit messed up. We're way to self-obsessed IMO. Probably most people don't even notice until they go to a third world country and observe the culture - see what things are like in the rest of the world.

In any case, I don't think need for connection is the problem with BPD. The problem is lack of trust combined with more extreme standards than is normal. That's how people are driven away. The idea that having ANY emotional needs is somehow wrong is backwards and counterproductive IMO. To feel that way makes things worse. It becomes a PUSH thing. You start to almost subconsciously resent people for caring too much (because you think it's somehow wrong to be needy at all and you don't trust them) and that makes them not want to care.

I agree with a lot of your points FrostFern. I've travelled through a lot of third world countries, lived there for years actually. Those countries lack the social services that we have. I agree with you that more faceless bureaucracies won't solve much though.

Our culture is very isolating. People are socialized to be cold and selfish, for the most part. To put themselves first and to look down and judge others who are different. Empathy and compassion are not taught. They can even be seen as weaknesses. Our society seems to be trying to create Narcissists and Sociopaths.

In certain third world societies people are much more willing to help out friends and family members. Its a given that if someone didn't work that day and has no food, they can go to a friend's house and expect to be fed, no questions asked. And the favor will be returned one day. People are much more interdependent on each other. I was really impressed by this and it was hard to readjust back into my own culture, where people are so cold towards others the majority of the time.

I think the solutions lies in not encouraging the selfishness and narcissism our culture encourages. Its in the media and we are bombarded with these messages constantly. Most people don't want to admit that, or maybe they can't see it because of being too close to it. I think I may see it better because of having lived in other countries so long and seen a different way. I try not to talk about it anymore because people don't seem interested or just don't understand what I'm trying to say.

*TW*

Its true about BPDs. I would like a normal relationship, but I can't trust others, even when they try to love me, nobody will ever be that perfect, loving, constantly present person that will put up with my mood swings and splitting and still feel the same about me. Its very depressing. I try not to think about that either and just tell myself I'm happy being alone. But I can't feel loved, and that is a very cold, lonely way to go through life.

justagirl00 wrote:*TW*

Its true about BPDs. I would like a normal relationship, but I can't trust others, even when they try to love me, nobody will ever be that perfect, loving, constantly present person that will put up with my mood swings and splitting and still feel the same about me. Its very depressing. I try not to think about that either and just tell myself I'm happy being alone. But I can't feel loved, and that is a very cold, lonely way to go through life.

I can't have relationships. I hope this is not prying, but I thought you were in an online relationship. Did you get out of it? I ask because I have a problem forgetting about someone I met online. I'd really like to forget about it or just be a normal person, but neither option happens.