Is BPD really such a bad thing?

A lot of the BPDs I have known seemed to have pretty good lives, on the whole. Maybe I was just exposed to an upper-class cross section of those with the condition, but almost without exception there were many traits that are desirable or good which were common to them all. With the exception of one, all were female, but that was where the differences ended.

The first and most striking similarity was that BPDs are disproportionately attractive, physically speaking. I suspect this is because they are more conscious and insecure in their appearance so they invest more time and energy trying to look better, even in situations where it is not common to prop up your looks, as in a walk-in clinic. I also believe that generally speaking attractive people are more likely to suffer from personality defects because in evolutionary terms partners would overlook them for their beauty. This is a huge a bonus, especially for women, because appearance is everyone's top pre-occupation. One of the biggest benefits is that it leads to sexual fulfillment because attractive people have an easier time acquiring mates - and friends. This isn't me being shallow, it is how the world works. I haven't met a single BPD who didn't have a history of many partners before she turned 25. Contrast this with the many non women I've met who have a very high incident of sexual frustration. They knew they weren't desired, and retreated to sheltered lives. BPDs irrationally THINK they are unattractive, but their polygamy says otherwise, and at least the body is satiated.

Next, BPDs seem to be exceptionally creative. They are like Renaissance men and women, being cosmopolitan and wordly, and often know many diverse subjects. I suspect it is their thrill seeking and need for novelty which lets them be exposed to many different things in the course of their lives. You can even see from this board that the prose is a tier better than anything you'd find with other sub-forums, say NPD or Asperger's. I haven't met a BPD that wasn't above average, but as I mentioned before this might just be my class bias, and the likely lower incident of diagnosis for the poorer and less educated means I never run into them. Still, it's worth noting that the best creative arts students of my class always had either bipolar or BPD. I think it has something to do with the hypersensitive emotions creating stronger memories and the transient psychosis enabling new insights. Almost all of the BPDs I have known have achieved great success in their careers, even if they themselves fail to acknowledge it.

Lastly, BPDs have enormous energy and at their best can be extremely motivated and enthusiastic. This enables them to travel, meet a lot of new people, and pursue many different hobbies. They can light up the room with their playful personalities and be absolutely contagious. They can switch gears too, and move on readily without dwelling on the past too long - always being on the go. And their natural highs can't even be achieved by the most potent drugs. Not long term anyway.

That is not to say there are no downsides to BPD. The lows are probably the most unbearable living conditions known to mankind. The impulsiveness can lead to poor short term decisions. The anxiety can push people away. Self-harm and uncontrollable mood swings are serious threats and can be dangerous. You might say BPDs just try to portray themselves as all that, but really, their self-reports are usually negative. It's when you look at their history and behavior that you find they've had interesting lives. The only real downside is when they are over 30, where it is no longer possible to have a spontaneous life and most people begin to settle down. That is the one time I can see the Borderline Personality being a disadvantage.

Still... how many of you would trade your particular "wiring" for life to be a mundane housewife who feels undesired, lives a boring life, and lacks life experience. This is unfortunately how most people live it seems. Most nons are not content with their lives. In comparison, the BPD lives a blissfully ignorant life. In this context then, is BPD really such a bad thing?

Sometimes I wonder if you all act the way you do because you know you can get away with it...

I think that the rage (the 'border-lion') might be one serious down-side. Otherwise I see your point...

springrainlily wrote:I think that the rage (the 'border-lion') might be one serious down-side. Otherwise I see your point...

Border-lion There is that creativity I talked about.

Sure, the rage and emptiness might be bad when they are experienced. But if you were to net the total amount of time spent feeling angry or void versus when you felt excited and euphoric I think you'd average a frequency not too different from a non. I imagine a sinusoidal curve where the amplitude is much greater and the period is shorter which has the same expected value over time. High highs and low lows sounds like a richer existence then a boring, stable even keel.

And your version of the non is probably a false idealization that doesn't exist. Nons don't go through life peacefully and have their own set of problems like insecurity, stress, ruminations, concern etc. Having an ability to just forget about everything and restart is a real plus. Sure, there are some people who hit the genetic potluck and probably have everything going for them. But would you be willing to trade your life for that of someone else, particularly, an average member of the general population?

I think you really are forgetting the fact that people who are diagnosed generally have good access to mental health services, especially given how hard PD's are to diagnose, and are therefore upper-middle class to upper class. Also, those who have access and choose to talk on online mental health boards are generally upper or middle class. People with BPD are largely over-represented in the prison population. You can't really just talk in terms of white upper class women with BPD. If you're talking about quality of life you have to include minorities whose anger/impulsivity/etc translate into jail time, because they a) don't have access to care and b) deal with the pervasive racism that pipelines low-income minorities into the prison system.

You're also making a lot of generalizations. I consider myself to be attractive and sexually appealing, but it's not primarily because I spend more time on my appearance. I have an hourglass figure with big breasts and high cheekbones, which lends itself to attracting partners when I put effort into my clothing/makeup/etc., which I didn't do for many years. Actually the years when I was most insecure, I didn't put any effort in at all - messy long hair, unflattering clothing. I also go days without makeup and usually go to the gym or grocery store without makeup. I'm not really as image-obsessed as you seem to think people with BPD are. I've struggled with an ED and body image issues, which I think many non women have, but never to the point where I didn't realize that I'm attractive.

I'm sexually promiscuous and do have a history of probably well over 100 partners at this point although I stopped counting around 50. I'm insanely adventurous when it comes to sex and I have an insatiable sex drive. My looks and sexuality have led me into some pretty interesting situations. My friends often tell me I should blog because of all the wild $#%^ I tend to get tangled up in. Sex parties and orgies and cocaine fueled trips with rich men who paid for everything. But it has its downsides too. I was involved in sex work and prostitution, which always leads down some bad roads. I'm lucky I came out of it fairly in tact, but even knowing that with my impulsivity and need for excitement I sometimes think about going back. My SO has had to specifically forbid me from doing it because he knows how bad it is for me. And that euphoria that I get from adventure and sex has never been enough. I've done a lot of drugs, again I'm lucky in that I've never developed a habit, but it's been risky. My life is also not all that interesting a good majority of the time. I don't have many close friends. I spend far too much time studying and watching TV. My life sometimes is incredibly depressing and I feel like a bit of a loser because I don't really go out on Saturday nights and I rarely go to bars or clubs. I used to be wild in undergrad, but I've calmed down considerably on my nightlife activities.

I think you're also confusing creative with well-educated. I've been involved in music a lot, but I don't write songs. I'm about as creative as a flatworm. But I'm well-read and intelligent and I've had the privilege of a fantastic education. And while I do agree that smarter people do tend to be more mentally ill, I also agree that you're probably running up against a class bias too.

I'm enthusiastic about certain issues, but I would not describe myself as motivated. Perhaps it's the co-morbidity with ADHD, but I can be a lazy $#%^. I also can be fairly socially awkward and I'm pretty sure I don't light up a room. I'm often perceived as cold, aloof, and intimidating. When I warm up to people (or I've been drinking) I'm bubbly and affectionate and playful, but generally I have a hard time with new people.

I feel like I don't really identify with all of the things you're saying most people with BPD share.

And I only get away with $#%^ because I'm intelligent and have an intense fear of failure. I've finished papers high and after sex parties while everyone is sleeping. My life on the outside is fairly normal and no one would know I'm a secret freak. I act the way I do because sex and drugs keep away the feelings of emptiness and loneliness. When your fun crazy stories are "that time I did a gangbang" or "when I was high on cocaine and had a threesome for $500" you start to realize how depressing they really are. I had a fantastic time doing both things and I'm safe about what I do, but it's still depressing and fairly pathetic in the end.

Yes, it is.

Yah.....like: excessive, unstable and poorly regulated emotional responses, especially anger;
impulsive behaviors that are harmful to you or to others, such as spending sprees, excessive use of alcohol or drugs, self-injurious acts, and sexual indiscretions;
suspiciousness, misperceptions, an unstable self-image, a poor sense of your identity, and difficulty in reasoning under stress; and
tumultuous relationships that vary from extreme fear of abandonment to episodes of excessive anger directed towards a person very close to you, and the desire to get away from that person.... I personally have a tough time being around people like that...

Martijn wrote:s, it is.

AmorousDestruction wrote:I think you really are forgetting the fact that people who are diagnosed generally have good access to mental health services, especially given how hard PD's are to diagnose, and are therefore upper-middle class to upper class. Also, those who have access and choose to talk on online mental health boards are generally upper or middle class. People with BPD are largely over-represented in the prison population. You can't really just talk in terms of white upper class women with BPD. If you're talking about quality of life you have to include minorities whose anger/impulsivity/etc translate into jail time, because they a) don't have access to care and b) deal with the pervasive racism that pipelines low-income minorities into the prison system.

I'm not forgetting that, I acknowledged that a class bias may exist with my experience. It's true that BPDs are over represented in jail. So are ADHDs, and virtually anyone with an impulse disorder. Maybe I should have prefaced in my post that my analysis only applies to high-functioning BPDs. I don't believe PDs are that difficult to diagnose. There is simply no value in doing so, as there are few if any approved treatments, and a plethora of downsides thanks to the stigma making most professionals reluctant to hand them out. The people I've known have been mostly white, but some were also East Asian. Pretty much the demographics you'd see at a good post-secondary institution.

You're also making a lot of generalizations. I consider myself to be attractive and sexually appealing, but it's not primarily because I spend more time on my appearance. I have an hourglass figure with big breasts and high cheekbones, which lends itself to attracting partners when I put effort into my clothing/makeup/etc., which I didn't do for many years. Actually the years when I was most insecure, I didn't put any effort in at all - messy long hair, unflattering clothing. I also go days without makeup and usually go to the gym or grocery store without makeup. I'm not really as image-obsessed as you seem to think people with BPD are. I've struggled with an ED and body image issues, which I think many non women have, but never to the point where I didn't realize that I'm attractive.

One generalization you fit, apparently. I don't know "what" makes you attractive, and only speculated that being more image conscious hence the "I suspect" and it's uncertainty. Obviously you can only go so far with clothes and makeup. And yes, I think BPDs are on average far more image conscious, because they are insecure about everything and want to project themselves as perfect.

I'm sexually promiscuous and do have a history of probably well over 100 partners at this point although I stopped counting around 50. I'm insanely adventurous when it comes to sex and I have an insatiable sex drive. My looks and sexuality have led me into some pretty interesting situations. My friends often tell me I should blog because of all the wild $hit I tend to get tangled up in. Sex parties and orgies and cocaine fueled trips with rich men who paid for everything. But it has its downsides too. I was involved in sex work and prostitution, which always leads down some bad roads. I'm lucky I came out of it fairly in tact, but even knowing that with my impulsivity and need for excitement I sometimes think about going back. My SO has had to specifically forbid me from doing it because he knows how bad it is for me. And that euphoria that I get from adventure and sex has never been enough. I've done a lot of drugs, again I'm lucky in that I've never developed a habit, but it's been risky. My life is also not all that interesting a good majority of the time. I don't have many close friends. I spend far too much time studying and watching TV. My life sometimes is incredibly depressing and I feel like a bit of a loser because I don't really go out on Saturday nights and I rarely go to bars or clubs. I used to be wild in undergrad, but I've calmed down considerably on my nightlife activities.

And how do you think most people out there socialize? It's usually going out with the same group of close friends talking about how boring their lives are. The ability to seduce on the spot adds a whole new dimension of flirting and adventure to life. For other people, the only chance in hell of them finding a mate is by mixing their social circles and hoping to click with someone. You study too much and watch TV, but who doesn't really? The difference is you've fit in some interesting diversions, even if they have had SOME downsides.

I think you're also confusing creative with well-educated. I've been involved in music a lot, but I don't write songs. I'm about as creative as a flatworm. But I'm well-read and intelligent and I've had the privilege of a fantastic education. And while I do agree that smarter people do tend to be more mentally ill, I also agree that you're probably running up against a class bias too.

I don't think a good education can drastically affect your intelligence, just as good clothes cannot drastically affect your appearance, I think it's mostly out of your control. The fact that you've been involved in music at all supports you have an artsy or creative temperament.

I'm enthusiastic about certain issues, but I would not describe myself as motivated. Perhaps it's the co-morbidity with ADHD, but I can be a lazy $hit. I also can be fairly socially awkward and I'm pretty sure I don't light up a room. I'm often perceived as cold, aloof, and intimidating. When I warm up to people (or I've been drinking) I'm bubbly and affectionate and playful, but generally I have a hard time with new people.

And I only get away with $hit because I'm intelligent and have an intense fear of failure. I've finished papers high and after sex parties while everyone is sleeping. My life on the outside is fairly normal and no one would know I'm a secret freak. I act the way I do because sex and drugs keep away the feelings of emptiness and loneliness. When your fun crazy stories are "that time I did a gangbang" or "when I was high on cocaine and had a threesome for $500" you start to realize how depressing they really are. I had a fantastic time doing both things and I'm safe about what I do, but it's still depressing and fairly pathetic in the end.

That would be your high energy level enabling you to work late into the night. Again, I think being sexually uninhibited is preferable to being sexually frustrated and undesired. By your own account you recollect the experiences as having been fun, it is only jealous society telling you to feel pathetic and guilty for it.

I feel like I don't really identify with all of the things you're saying most people with BPD share.

I don't know about that - you said you were attractive, intelligent, and energetic - which is in total agreement with my common traits.

Yes, it is.

You sure?

Yah.....like: excessive, unstable and poorly regulated emotional responses, especially anger;
impulsive behaviors that are harmful to you or to others, such as spending sprees, excessive use of alcohol or drugs, self-injurious acts, and sexual indiscretions;
suspiciousness, misperceptions, an unstable self-image, a poor sense of your identity, and difficulty in reasoning under stress; and
tumultuous relationships that vary from extreme fear of abandonment to episodes of excessive anger directed towards a person very close to you, and the desire to get away from that person.... I personally have a tough time being around people like that...

I acknowledge that there are downsides, but consider that this sort of personality enables you to have many short term flings where you experience a lot of novelty that nons normally never would. Obviously this will impact success with LTR, but the question is do the good out weight the bad?

They could....but only with an individual recognizing that they need to capitalize on their strengths and yet work on these weaknesses...

conditional_love wrote:I'm not forgetting that, I acknowledged that a class bias may exist with my experience. It's true that BPDs are over represented in jail. So are ADHDs, and virtually anyone with an impulse disorder. Maybe I should have prefaced in my post that my analysis only applies to high-functioning BPDs. I don't believe PDs are that difficult to diagnose. There is simply no value in doing so, as there are few if any approved treatments, and a plethora of downsides thanks to the stigma making most professionals reluctant to hand them out. The people I've known have been mostly white, but some were also East Asian. Pretty much the demographics you'd see at a good post-secondary institution.

I don't think it's just about impulse control. I think it's also the emotional instability and perhaps violence coming from fear or paranoia. I'd suspect many mental illnesses are overrepresented in the prison system, but the estimated numbers for BPD are quite significant. I would have to argue with you on the idea that PD's are difficult to diagnose. I had to pretty much diagnose myself after like 3-4 psychiatrists over the years and I'm upper middle class. I have the money to pay for DBT and access to meds. The stigma is a pain, but really among educated progressive people mental illness has become more largely accepted, especially if you're high functioning. I don't think the docs didn't diagnose me because of stigma.

conditional_love wrote:
I think BPDs are on average far more image conscious, because they are insecure about everything and want to project themselves as perfect.

I was a loser band nerd all through high school. I didn't even date. I don't think that's projecting myself as perfect. But I get your gist.

conditional_love wrote:
And how do you think most people out there socialize? It's usually going out with the same group of close friends talking about how boring their lives are. The ability to seduce on the spot adds a whole new dimension of flirting and adventure to life. For other people, the only chance in hell of them finding a mate is by mixing their social circles and hoping to click with someone. You study too much and watch TV, but who doesn't really? The difference is you've fit in some interesting diversions, even if they have had SOME downsides.

But dude. Look how often I'm on these boards. Given, a lot of the time it's procrastinating at work, but I wouldn't be so active on the internet if I knew how to socialize. You forget the amazing world of the internet. That's actually how a lot of people I know meet now. Actually how I met 4 of my last 5 SO's/boyfriends/lovers on the interwebs. I did meet all but one of them pretty immediately after we met online and it would hard to find people who are involved in BDSM otherwise, but I'm no social butterfly. I don't light up rooms. You have to at least concede that you're wrong on that one, although perhaps it's a trend that I just don't follow.

conditional_love wrote:
I don't think a good education can drastically affect your intelligence, just as good clothes cannot drastically affect your appearance, I think it's mostly out of your control. The fact that you've been involved in music at all supports you have an artsy or creative temperament.

Not drastically, but there is thought to be a genetically-based IQ range that we're born capable of having and our environment decides where we fall in that range.

conditional_love wrote:
That would be your high energy level enabling you to work late into the night. Again, I think being sexually uninhibited is preferable to being sexually frustrated and undesired. By your own account you recollect the experiences as having been fun, it is only jealous society telling you to feel pathetic and guilty for it.

More fear of failure and caffeine than energy. I think it definitely beats being sexually frustrated and undesired, but being insatiable and reckless isn't all it's cracked up to be in terms of fun.

conditional_love wrote:
I don't know about that - you said you were attractive, intelligent, and energetic - which is in total agreement with my common traits.

Maybe I'm just a narcissist.

AmorousDestruction wrote:I don't think it's just about impulse control. I think it's also the emotional instability and perhaps violence coming from fear or paranoia. I'd suspect many mental illnesses are overrepresented in the prison system, but the estimated numbers for BPD are quite significant. I would have to argue with you on the idea that PD's are difficult to diagnose. I had to pretty much diagnose myself after like 3-4 psychiatrists over the years and I'm upper middle class. I have the money to pay for DBT and access to meds. The stigma is a pain, but really among educated progressive people mental illness has become more largely accepted, especially if you're high functioning. I don't think the docs didn't diagnose me because of stigma.

Impulse disorders and violence are usually intertwined, and I think anti-socials are the most over represented disorder in jail. Psychiatrists are almost always reluctant to make a personality disorder diagnosis and since most who have BPD have concurrent psychiatric illness they are most likely to make that their primary diagnosis so that they can prescribe medications. A psychologist should have no trouble diagnosing you in one or two visits because they ask different questions rather than ask for a list of symptoms.

But dude. Look how often I'm on these boards. Given, a lot of the time it's procrastinating at work, but I wouldn't be so active on the internet if I knew how to socialize. You forget the amazing world of the internet. That's actually how a lot of people I know meet now. Actually how I met 4 of my last 5 SO's/boyfriends/lovers on the interwebs. I did meet all but one of them pretty immediately after we met online and it would hard to find people who are involved in BDSM otherwise, but I'm no social butterfly. I don't light up rooms. You have to at least concede that you're wrong on that one, although perhaps it's a trend that I just don't follow.

Looks are even more important on the internet! Trust me, if you didn't look good, you wouldn't have met anyone. I'm not saying you are a social butterfly, but you are still WAYYY above average.

Not drastically, but there is thought to be a genetically-based IQ range that we're born capable of having and our environment decides where we fall in that range.

We're in total agreement here.

More fear of failure and caffeine than energy. I think it definitely beats being sexually frustrated and undesired, but being insatiable and reckless isn't all it's cracked up to be in terms of fun.

Anxiety revs up your metabolism and increases energy levels. I used to study with a BPD chic who would pull crazy all nighters and still get straight As. Never could I do that with coffee, or even adderall.

Maybe I'm just a narcissist.

Hmmmm. Are you a narc trolling the BPD boards for sad, sexual, and really attractive young women?