the worst is the doubt

A little background.
31. Female. Dx'ed with bpd, ocd, and dysthymia about 10years ago.

I'm in my third serious relationship sense I realized I felt off and couldn't tie it to depression.

This relationship is 3 months old.

Almost from the beginning, I've felt like I'm being emotionally manipulated and gaslighted.

I don't know if I should trust myself or my judgment.

He calls me delusional when I bring up things.
He has said mean, hurtful, and even offensive things to me.
I'm not allowed to be sad or upset about them.
If I do show emotion, he tells me that I'm irrational and need to calm down.
He blames me anytime he's said something mean to me.

I don't know if I'm overreacting. I've been really mean to him at times.
I've said things I shouldn't have when triggered.

I began therapy last week to help me be better. I hate being hurtful.

I just don't think this feels right.

Can we be manipulated too? Are we at a higher risk of abuse?

I share your diagnosis'. Although it's Mild-Moderate symptoms of OCD for me, it's not official but it's not been denied.

mimentecaliente wrote:Can we be manipulated too? Are we at a higher risk of abuse?

Yes. I think, everything you've said, he's been abusing you.
We're at a higher risk of abuse because we're so guilty after we've said something 'hurtful' and 'vile' or whatever you want to call it and we're so out of control that, when someone tells us how abusive we've been or that we need to calm down, we take it on board and take it personally and we feel even more intense guilt and anger at ourselves and it just triggers us more, and people, especially your boyfriend for example, feels like he can manipulate and gaslight you because you're so vulnerable and he KNOWS that whatever he says you'll take into account and feel even worse because you can't actually do what he's TELLING you. Not asking, telling, which is to control your emotions/actions/behaviours and it sends you into an emotional spin and it's a vicious cycle.

I'm sorry he's treating you like this. It's not right. Take care. x

Kitkat93x wrote: mimentecaliente wrote:Can we be manipulated too? Are we at a higher risk of abuse?



Yes. I think, everything you've said, he's been abusing you.
We're at a higher risk of abuse because we're so guilty after we've said something 'hurtful' and 'vile' or whatever you want to call it and we're so out of control that, when someone tells us how abusive we've been or that we need to calm down, we take it on board and take it personally and we feel even more intense guilt and anger at ourselves and it just triggers us more, and people, especially your boyfriend for example, feels like he can manipulate and gaslight you because you're so vulnerable and he KNOWS that whatever he says you'll take into account and feel even worse because you can't actually do what he's TELLING you. Not asking, telling, which is to control your emotions/actions/behaviours and it sends you into an emotional spin and it's a vicious cycle.

I'm sorry he's treating you like this. It's not right. Take care. x

Thank you kitkat. You said what I was thinking.

mimentecaliente: I think this is a very bad situation for you to be in. I'm sorry that he is being abusive towards you, he's taking advantage of how sensitive and vulnerable you are. We all have made mistakes when we are triggered, but it gives him NO RIGHT to take advantage of you. If he wants to be in a relationship with you, your BPD is a part of it. He should be helping you and understanding you might not say things you mean when you're triggered.
Take care of yourself.

Thanks everyone.

I just feel so out of touch with reality when he and I have our spats.

I'm very aware when I've been triggered and I am usually very good at warning him.

So I rarely lash out without being provoked.
If I do, I apologize as soon as I calm down.
Most of the time, he accuses me of having an episode when he's said something outrageous to me.

I just get so tired of him playing the victim and blaming everything on me.

I don't even know if he's doing this on purpose.

I'm going to talk to my therapist about it next week.

I've never had anyone talk to me the way he has. It actually feels a lot like he has bpd also.
Or maybe something else too.

I'm glad to hear that you're aware, that's an amazing and difficult step.

mimentecaliente wrote:Most of the time, he accuses me of having an episode when he's said something outrageous to me.

I just get so tired of him playing the victim and blaming everything on me.

I don't even know if he's doing this on purpose.

This is very unfair for you, as you have every right to be upset after he's said something bad to you. If you've pointed it out and he keep denying it (whether it's being done on purpose or not), I would really suggest getting out of a situation where he's only going to make things harder for you.

It is my understanding that people with bpd can and often times are at greater risk for abuse.

And I would say this to you. Abuse can be obvious and it can be subtle. Calling you names like saying you are delusional is far different than saying when we argue like this and you say x I feel like that isn't correct and is a mischaracterization of my position. Other times people subtly put you down like questioning your abilities, "are you sure you are right you know you make a lot mistakes sometimes etc."

Being someone without borderline personality disorder and having recently gotten out of a relationship where I feel as if the person may have had it I can say we went round and round about what I was really saying a lot of times. What I really meant, and how I was really hurtful, I was told I was mean, and that I was jacking her around. And I am not in anyway trying to invalidate your perspective here, I want to be very clear about that. The reason I bring it up is because I have the text messages and emails I can look at. Its harder with conversations where both people are upset to remember everything word for word. There is what was said, what we heard, what we felt about what we heard, if we are interpreting it the way they meant it etc. I understand that having bpd can make that more challenging when it is already challenging for everyone anyway.

When I go back and look at our interactions in text and email I can see the difference between the way we talk to each other. And I was going to suggest if you have that to take a look at that communication since there are no recordings of your interactions and it is harder to gauge. The written word is a bit harder to dismiss.

Text and email is all I have to verify my perspective that I wasn't putting her down or being mean. I can see it in the content. (unless I'm really different in person compared to what I write) whereas I do have her on record of accusing of motivations and behaviors that aren't typical of me, and lashing out at me, which I do not do in return.

Generally I disagree with arguments conducted via text or email but in this circumstance that could that be helpful to you.

He may not be doing it on purpose but if the net effect is the same and you are left questioning yourself too often then regardless it isn't a healthy relationship for you. And that is all that really matters.

syz wrote:It is my understanding that people with bpd can and often times are at greater risk for abuse.

And I would say this to you. Abuse can be obvious and it can be subtle. Calling you names like saying you are delusional is far different than saying when we argue like this and you say x I feel like that isn't correct and is a mischaracterization of my position. Other times people subtly put you down like questioning your abilities, "are you sure you are right you know you make a lot mistakes sometimes etc."

Being someone without borderline personality disorder and having recently gotten out of a relationship where I feel as if the person may have had it I can say we went round and round about what I was really saying a lot of times. What I really meant, and how I was really hurtful, I was told I was mean, and that I was jacking her around. And I am not in anyway trying to invalidate your perspective here, I want to be very clear about that. The reason I bring it up is because I have the text messages and emails I can look at. Its harder with conversations where both people are upset to remember everything word for word. There is what was said, what we heard, what we felt about what we heard, if we are interpreting it the way they meant it etc. I understand that having bpd can make that more challenging when it is already challenging for everyone anyway.

When I go back and look at our interactions in text and email I can see the difference between the way we talk to each other. And I was going to suggest if you have that to take a look at that communication since there are no recordings of your interactions and it is harder to gauge. The written word is a bit harder to dismiss.

Text and email is all I have to verify my perspective that I wasn't putting her down or being mean. I can see it in the content. (unless I'm really different in person compared to what I write) whereas I do have her on record of accusing of motivations and behaviors that aren't typical of me, and lashing out at me, which I do not do in return.

Generally I disagree with arguments conducted via text or email but in this circumstance that could that be helpful to you.

He may not be doing it on purpose but if the net effect is the same and you are left questioning yourself too often then regardless it isn't a healthy relationship for you. And that is all that really matters.

i almost always communicate via text and email during an argument. i feel it's the only way i can get my thoughts out without being disrupted or without me having unnecessary outbursts. i like to organize my thoughts and give a complete picture of the situation. i state facts. i give my opinion of them and then i ask questions to resolve them.

the questions i ask aren't usually answered and i'm commonly told that i'm delusional, irrational, and to blame. the questions get ignored...or he says he's too tired to talk about it...and yesterday, he completely acted like i didn't ask him anything and changed the subject. he went from being morose to chipper, and it honestly scared me a bit.

i'm often the one saying "when you say xyz, i feel that you're perhaps misunderstanding me. this is what i meant." i'm usually met with him telling me that it's his opinion and he has a right to feel that way. even if it's an attack on my character. for instance, it took me 3 months to get him to stop calling everything i do negative.

i'm actually pretty awesome when it comes to conflict resolution because it was drilled into me so much for a previous job and because i really really hate confrontation and i like everything to go smoothly.
i'm pretty terrible when i'm having one of my moments but i generally do not ever have those randomly. (my therapist actually asked me to figure out why i'm having so many now as opposed to my previous relationship and i couldnt figure it out until yesterday or today. my ex never spoke to me in this manner and would never dismiss anything i brought to him for the most part.)

this man has told me that i cant say certain words nor make certain off-color jokes because i have bpd and am occasionally suicidal. i've never made a joke about that in particular.
he told me that i'd be a horrible parent to a girl. that hurt me really bad because he has a daughter...
he said on two occasions that the religion i grew up in and the one that all my family practices is devil worship.
he told me that he can make jokes about dying and about my cat dying because he was being sweet....i'm too unbalanced to make less serious jokes.
he's told me that things aren't resolved until he considers them to be and that he can continue to bring them up.
he's told me to die.
he got mad when i said i don't agree with "tough love" and being rude to people and calling it "keeping it real."

right now, i feel like i'm on the other side of this bpd thing. i'm looking at my life in disbelief.

but i've continued to keep records of emails and screenshots of the texts. i'm still not convinced i'm not imagining all of this and i'd like to tell my therapist about these things. and i dont feel it's fair to just tell her so i'd like to have some records of our interactions.

i'm in no way perfect and i can go overboard when i'm having an episode. i'm at fault a lot. i own mine though. i'd just like him to acknowledge that he isn't perfect and does hurtful things to me unprovoked.

-- Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:41 pm --

aliveatnight wrote:I'm glad to hear that you're aware, that's an amazing and difficult step.

mimentecaliente wrote:Most of the time, he accuses me of having an episode when he's said something outrageous to me.

I just get so tired of him playing the victim and blaming everything on me.

I don't even know if he's doing this on purpose.

This is very unfair for you, as you have every right to be upset after he's said something bad to you. If you've pointed it out and he keep denying it (whether it's being done on purpose or not), I would really suggest getting out of a situation where he's only going to make things harder for you.

i honestly feel like being aware makes it so much harder sometimes.

question....
is 3 months too soon for a couple to be in counseling?

like is our relationship too young? (this is rhetorical)

he offered to go with me if the therapist would allow a couples session.

I think then you have really answered your own question because although there is room for interpretation in text messages its still pretty black and white, right there, the written word.

I certainly don't know your situation other than what you've written here. but if this is a newer relationship where you haven't invested as much time, I'd really say cut your losses. I may be cynical and of course it is completely your call but verbal abuse, abusive tendencies in general, take a long time to over come. If ever. It can be done with hard work, but you are already working uphill on your own stuff.

I actually think couples could benefit from therapy even in good relationships especially before marriage. But (and these are my personal biases here so beware the messenger) I think 3 months is way to early to be having this much difficulty in a relationship, this should be the best and sweetest time, not bogged down with visions of what is to come that will probably end up worse than it is now. His communication with you is abusive sounding to me. Add in a kid from a previous relationship and I'd say get out. I've been with two people who had children and the one thing is it makes the relationship harder and it makes the ensuing breakup worse. I'm still connected with my step daughters and I don't regret them for one second but the breakup with their mom (whom I no longer wanted to be with) was bloody awful for me because of my connection with them. And if I could warn people off of that I would.

Maybe go to one therapy session with him.. I wouldn't hold out a ton of hope there. I can't help but wonder if he is wanting to see your therapist to discuss 'your problems' and exonerate himself. Sorry for my cynicism. You sound like you are working hard on yourself and doing your due diligence and you deserve better than this stuff which sounds like it has the ability to drag your progress backwards. Its not that people are disposable but at some point we have to ask ourselves is this really right for me? is this enhancing my life or making it hard.

syz wrote:I think then you have really answered your own question because although there is room for interpretation in text messages its still pretty black and white, right there, the written word.

I certainly don't know your situation other than what you've written here. but if this is a newer relationship where you haven't invested as much time, I'd really say cut your losses. I may be cynical and of course it is completely your call but verbal abuse, abusive tendencies in general, take a long time to over come. If ever. It can be done with hard work, but you are already working uphill on your own stuff.

I actually think couples could benefit from therapy even in good relationships especially before marriage. But (and these are my personal biases here so beware the messenger) I think 3 months is way to early to be having this much difficulty in a relationship, this should be the best and sweetest time, not bogged down with visions of what is to come that will probably end up worse than it is now. His communication with you is abusive sounding to me. Add in a kid from a previous relationship and I'd say get out. I've been with two people who had children and the one thing is it makes the relationship harder and it makes the ensuing breakup worse. I'm still connected with my step daughters and I don't regret them for one second but the breakup with their mom (whom I no longer wanted to be with) was bloody awful for me because of my connection with them. And if I could warn people off of that I would.

Maybe go to one therapy session with him.. I wouldn't hold out a ton of hope there. I can't help but wonder if he is wanting to see your therapist to discuss 'your problems' and exonerate himself. Sorry for my cynicism. You sound like you are working hard on yourself and doing your due diligence and you deserve better than this stuff which sounds like it has the ability to drag your progress backwards. Its not that people are disposable but at some point we have to ask ourselves is this really right for me? is this enhancing my life or making it hard.

yikes. lol
I'm not concerned about lasting damage from emotional abuse. I don't internalize things for the most part. The only thing that was scaring me about our episodes was my reaction to them.
Today was the day that I came down from my rage high, and I don't see things as being as extreme as I portrayed them to be.
I can easily cut him off since our relationship is semi-long distance, but I dont want to...not yet at least. I usually cut people off pretty easily. I hate that I can do that but it's needed sometimes.

Our relationship is mostly sweet and loving and fun and nerdy. I've had a few episodes where i went completely insane on him. He reacted. There were a few occasions where he said things that I took offense to and instead of calmly discussing it, i threatened him and said all kinds of crazy nonsense.

I doubt he's trying to see my counselor in an attempt to make himself look like the good guy. And I definitely wouldn't run from someone just because they had children. I wouldn't want that to ever happen to me. I'm very careful about dating someone with children. I don't take that lightly at all.