Does this ever get better?

Granfallon,

Can you tell me which scene in which movie are you talking about? It is good that you are breaking down when you watch, that means that you are connecting with your repressed emotions. You don't have to watch the movies with anyone else, you should watch them all alone of they are triggering emotions within you, but you should watch them, like I said, it is good to be feeling those emotions, that is very good progress for an avoidant.
Btw, did you have a chance to take the quiz near the end of the book yet?

I personally did not get help from this book as I learned of it's existence long after my work in therapy resulting in me eventually becoming emotionally literate. But I have passed the book along to people who are dealing with being detached emotionally. I think the book is really about becoming emotionally literate for yourself, so that you can be true to who you are by getting connected with your true self. It is only through connecting with our emotions that we can know and embrace our true self. 

The relationship between AvPD and emotional literacy is that avoidants are by definition emotionally illiterate, and becoming emotionally literate, connecting with our true self and learning to love ourselves is the key to conquering AvPD.

To me, the critical parent is closely related to our defense mechanisms. Overcoming our critical parent is very possible. Regression can help with this process because it gets us connected to our repressed emotions so that we can feel, process and release them. But we also need, at some point during our therapy, to get into our subconscious and change our false belief system about ourselves. This can be done by reprogramming our subconscious, positive affirmations help to do this, but we need to conscious believe what it is we are telling our subconscious to believe, if we can't consciously believe it then we will never subconsciously believe it. A good therapist can find out what our core subconscious beliefs about ourselves really are, and they can challenge those false beliefs in a way that opens up our eyes to see what we have been doing subconsciously to sabotage our happiness. 

I hope this has helped you....let me know if there is more that I can help you with.

By your username I take it that you are a fan of Kurt Vonnegut?

Knockknock

Assuming you want all candid viewpoints, here is mine.

There is no sit-and-wait for things to change to a type of 'better'. There are no antibodies to heal this with time as with the common cold. So no, this will not just get better. In fact, it will get worse with time. That is assuming no action is taken to deal with the issues that caused the avoidant behaviors. You need to take action to face the things that you fear. It is a tough task but you need to not let it sit and ferment. The more it sits, the harder it gets. Most old timers here will tell you this is true.

Easier said than done, of course. I do not claim to be 'cured' of this situation that I have dealt with for most of my 47 years. I have made progress in some areas. I can deal with people enough to hold a proffessional job. I still haven'/t had success with interprsonal long-term type things, however. Honestly, I probably never will. I really don't even know if I want that anymore. As another poster suggested, it is easy to get into the schizoid mindset after a while and so many years. I really have morphed a bit from wanting these things but being unable to obtain them to through anxiety and avoidance to, after age 40, a 'I just don't WANT to be around people" type of mindset where I more often than not see interpersonal relationships and friendships as a potential annoyance or frutsration more than a want or desire.

Is this a defense mechanism on my part that has developed? I really don't know. I just know my mindset is really different now. I don't know if that is a genuine feeling or just hidden anger or frustration with people. My counseler doesn't really know either. I just know that now I tend to dislike people instead of being anxious around them now. I don't get as upset now around holidays and such. I really don't want to deal with the people at all sometimes. I dislike people a lot of times, not in a hostile way, but in the same way you would dislike being around certain animals--cats or dogs for instance. Some people just don't like being around these things. I am kind of getting into that now where people are just like things I would rather not be around at all. My view of people, in general, is of cold and callous cretins, kind of like primitive and defective beings not worthy of my time or association. That is narcisitic and arrogant, I know, but just being completely honest.

People do stuff to each other that even animals don't do. When was the last time a dog carpet-bombed a city, put people in ovens, beat their offspring, or engaged in genocide ? In fact, it would be an insult to all non-human species in the animal kingdom to call society animalistic. Am I really missing a whole lot by being on the outside looking in? Time has shown me I ain't missing that much by not fully immersing myself in such a primitive and barbaric society that is prone to group-think and primitive displays of callous disregard for others of their own species, the environment, and the planet. In the short time man has been on the planet, he has trashed the neighborhood, slaughtered each other en masse in numbers never before seen, spewed litter and refuse to every corner of the globe, and wreaked havoc and mayhem with whatever he touches. In short, despite some advancements, mankind has pretty mcuh proven himself to be an intelligent but emotionally retarded, out of control monkey without fur. Do I want to associate myself with this? Just out of principle? That is my current mindset. My view of people is now one of just being tolerable to be around to, in general, being out of control pigs that should trade places with the monkeys at the zoo. The world would certainly be safer. Mankind has the distinction of being the only species to inflict pain and suffering on others simply for the sake of inflicting pain and suffering. No other species in existence does this. I never read an article about a dog slicing off another dog's head or burning another dog to death because it wasn't a muslim or christian. Mankind has not been a benefit to the world--he has been a living nightmare run amok. I would rather live with the monkeys.

End of soapbox rant.

Back on the question at hand--these are complex issues. It isn't as easy as saying it will just change and one day you will get over it. It just doesn't work like that without action. I know this isn't the usual positive reinforcement. But I see this question a lot and it often tends to get sugarcoated. I am just trying to offer realistic advice on this that isn't sugarcoated as this view often gets neglected and it needs to be heard so people take more action when they are young.

So, in closing, I would say it should get better the more you deal with the issues that are causing the problems. But it will not go away and it will not get any better without hard work and taking some pain up front in dealing with the issues.

Also, I would add, beware of itnernet diagnosis and people who say do this or that. It is best to work with a counseler who has experiencde treating such issues. No offense to the advice and many of it is good, but this is not just about boosting self esteem and you suddenly find yourself married with a family and live happily ever after etc..These are pretty complex issues that often involved ingrained emotional reflexes and defense mechanisms that go far beyond one's view of self. To resolve many of the issues udnerlying this stuff you need to untrain yourself of these defensive tactics that cause avoidance. We have wired ourselves to react to the things that have caused pain or trauma. It is a habit just as much as a personality disorder.


I think positive self image does a lot to make you more outgoing and take some risks. Talk and positive self-reinforcement is needed. But ultimately, the only way to undo the mindset is immersion to the risks and exposing yourself to the things you avoid. I think our minds are set up with the idea of risk-avoidance in mind. Whether you can handle the immersion and how much and how quickly is something best discussed with a professional counseler or psychologist. The worse thing you can do is get into an immersive mode that just reinforces your ingrained negative convictions. You can feel good about yourself but if you start opening up and your interactions with people don't go as planned and reinforces these negative feelings about interpersonal relations, the old thinking just kicks in. Been there. Done that. It really set me back a long ways, almost to the pint where I just said, "F this sh*t". It is too easy to take one step forward and three steps back and get frustrated and just give up completely, posititive self-image notwithstanding. That is why professional counseling is a must, IMO.

Existentialist wrote:There is no sit-and-wait for things to change to a type of 'better'. There are no antibodies to heal this with time as with the common cold. So no, this will not just get better. In fact, it will get worse with time. That is assuming no action is taken to deal with the issues that caused the avoidant behaviors. You need to take action to face the things that you fear. It is a tough task but you need to not let it sit and ferment. The more it sits, the harder it gets. Most old timers here will tell you this is true.
...
It isn't as easy as saying it will just change and one day you will get over it. It just doesn't work like that without action. I know this isn't the usual positive reinforcement. But I see this question a lot and it often tends to get sugarcoated. I am just trying to offer realistic advice on this that isn't sugarcoated as this view often gets neglected and it needs to be heard so people take more action when they are young.

So, in closing, I would say it should get better the more you deal with the issues that are causing the problems. But it will not go away and it will not get any better without hard work and taking some pain up front in dealing with the issues.

So true. I'm glad to see you around again, Existentialist. Your posts and those of other "old timers" helped me become a lot more serious about combating my avoidance back in 07/08 when I first started lurking. I'm sure you have helped push others in the right direction as well. Although I still have a long way to go, it's amazing how far I've come. I owe you and the other old timers many thanks.

I think it's really important to look at the symptoms of AvPD as something we can use to build a battle plan against, not something to hide behind. Giving up or giving in is only a waste of time. I'm still in my twenties, but I become queasy when I think about the years I wasted indulging my dysfunction. I wish I had started believing that optimism can be learned a lot earlier. I used to hate the concept of optimism and think that only delusional people are optimistic. To tell the truth, I still hate using the word. Maybe optimism is delusional, but if so, it's one of the healthiest delusions there is!

ShadowTerra wrote:

Existentialist wrote:...
It isn't as easy as saying it will just change and one day you will get over it. It just doesn't work like that without action. I know this isn't the usual positive reinforcement. But I see this question a lot and it often tends to get sugarcoated. I am just trying to offer realistic advice on this that isn't sugarcoated as this view often gets neglected and it needs to be heard so people take more action when they are young.

So true. I'm glad to see you around again, Existentialist. Your posts and those of other "old timers" helped me become a lot more serious about combating my avoidance back in 07/08 when I first started lurking. I'm sure you have helped push others in the right direction as well. Although I still have a long way to go, it's amazing how far I've come. I owe you and the other old timers many thanks.

I think it's really important to look at the symptoms of AvPD as something we can use to build a battle plan against, not something to hide behind. Giving up or giving in is only a waste of time. I'm still in my twenties, but I become queasy when I think about the years I wasted indulging my dysfunction. I wish I had started believing that optimism can be learned a lot earlier. I used to hate the concept of optimism and think that only delusional people are optimistic. To tell the truth, I still hate using the word. Maybe optimism is delusional, but if so, it's one of the healthiest delusions there is!

Hi, Shadow. Thanks.

It is good to hear you are advancing. It takes time but you will get there eventually.

I deal with other issues other than AvPd and such and there is a lot of stuff I have always dealt with. The optimism part is needed I think. I look at it this way--I may never get to where I want to be completely. But it sure is a hell of a lot better than where I was when I was younger. It's better than the alternative, which is just always wallowing in misery and going nowehre real quick. Some growth is always better than none. So when anyone gets discouraged that you don't move fast enough, think of it that way and consider not where you are not at but consider the advances you have made and compare it to when things were worse. That's what keeps me sane and going.

I know my outlook and comments can be negative at times. Usually it's just venting. Thats kind of wy I shy away from staying around forums for long stretches. Forums like this can be good and serve a purpose but if you spend too much time around them, It is easy to get mired down in negativity.

I give the advice I do because it is what helped me years ago. It's not for everyone. I had to get the 'kicked in the teeth approach' and the counselers had to take the gloves off. It went smething like this--"Wake up. If you want to be miserable for the rest of your life, nobody will stop you. But it is up to you to change your conditions. Nobody else will do that and nobody else can do that. So get off the sad-sack wagon and get off your butt and do something. Otherwise you are just wasting my time and yours. You are alone. Many people are alone. Many people will die alone. If you want to be one of those and live the rest of your life mired in self-pity and misery, it's up to you. The hard truth is life is not fair and nobody owes you a damn thing.The sooner you come to grips with this, the better off you will be "

I know it sounds odd a counseler would say things like that but that's what it took and what it takes with some people, I think. Again, this approach does not neccesarily work for everyone. I call it the kicked in the teeth approach. But it is true when you think about it subjectively. If you aren't going anywhere after a decade or two, the problem isn't counseling, the problem is you. I wanted to punch the counseler who told me that but now I thank the counseler. Dealing with this stuff is hard, its painfull and it takes time. But if you don't do it, nothing will happen. Counselers can only take it so far. People must do things themselves,. Many times these things are uncomfortable and painful.

I still habve trouble with interpersonal stuff but I have way more self confidence and self esteeem. I do things now I would never do before, even though most of them are by myself. I go out and experience stuff, go on trips etc...Just got back from Florida a while ago. I went alone but it was fun and better than sitting at home. I got to see things I always wanted like the Space Center and swam in the ocean for the first time. I wasn't worried I was alone and wasnt thinking reveryone was watching me because I was alone. In short, I didn't care. I was experience things and having fun. I even held conversations with strangers at the Space Center, discussing space stuff. I would usually shy away in my younger years. That stuff may not sound like a lot to many. But for a complete social recluse afraid of his own shadow ten years ago, that is a lot for me. It's a hell of a lot better than where I was. If I can make steps, anyone can.

Existentialist wrote:That stuff may not sound like a lot to many. But for a complete social recluse afraid of his own shadow ten years ago, that is a lot for me. It's a hell of a lot better than where I was. If I can make steps, anyone can.

Live long and prosper.

Just found this post and I am blown away. Especially by the positive changes that people have made. It's fantastic to be able to benefit from others' experiences like this. I've only been looking at this subject for about 5 days now. I am greatly encouraged by this post. I realise that I'm in a MUCH better place than I used to be...I'm over 50 now and from ages 7 to 49 or so was tough at times, horrible at times.

I think I've evolved into a happy person. After that many years I deserve to rest on my laurels (in my own mind) and enjoy the rest of the ride in my solitary way.

Just want to thank people who contribute to this forum...you are doing a service.

I realize that it has been a couple of months since anyone has weighed in on this but I am new to the forum and I am here because I am in tremendous pain, deeply confused and exceptionally depressed.

I am a Love Avoidant. I do not embrace this label, not do I try to hide from it. I am the classic case and I exhibit every single behavior and trait that identifies people with my affliction.

I came from a perfectly normal upper middle class family in the suburbs. Everything was fine until I was 13 and my parents divorced quite suddenly. As the oldest I became the "man of the house" with two younger siblings. My mother became unhinged and erratic, thus I became the person responsible for keeping things calm; Mom from unraveling, my siblings from having to deal with it.

It is step one of the perfect set-up. Step Two, my Dad remarried an absolutely horrid woman who I detest to this day. I should mention that I am 54 now. And the final Step or nail in the Love Avoidant coffin was pounded in when I witnessed my first true love cheating on me. An internal switch flipped that day and the Avoidant emerged. From that point forward I never trusted women. I always had women because I would swoop in as the White Knight, save and seduce, but then it became suffocating and I would withdraw, but only after firmly having my Love Hooks in them. They were completely in love with me, I loved them being in love with me, but I could love experience the same feelings of love in return. I would cheat, lie and create emotional and physical barriers to protect my space. It was at this time that sexual addiction became my drug of choice to soothe the pain that the Avoidant was experiencing and causing.

I married, had children, moved to the suburbs and tried to live with it. The problem was that the Avoidant was not happy. He/It kept finding ways to undermine, sabotage, destroy what was real by painting it as unsatisfactory. With the growth of the Internet the opportunities to self-medicate expanded exponentially and my addiction roared to life. I was constantly pushing boundaries until my life blew up when my wife discovered my indiscretions and proclivities. None of my acting out partners meant anything to me, they were simply temporary salves but it didn't make the reality any more palatable to my wife who rightfully kicked me out.

Have I mentioned that I am also an isolater, fiercely protective of being able to disappear into a place where I can distract and drop out. So moving into an apartment, while small and confined compared to my beautiful home was amazing. The Avoidant and Isolater was thrilled.

The curse of the Avoidant is that being distant is preferable but you need to have something to be different from. It was only a matter of time before I was "out there" again, looking to lure another into my web. As it turns out I found a remarkable woman with whom I share so many things in common that it is eerie. I tried for two years, fight my demons that were screaming inside me. Just last night we came to the realization that I was back in the Avoidant cycle and that until I could break it I would only cause her more pain, which I was doing at an alarming rate. I really love this woman, and I am a jackass for letting her go, but I know that it is the only fair and right thing to do.

Now I am miserable and quite afraid of what I might do and where I might go. I am in therapy with a remarkable woman in whose hands I know I am safe and being given good counsel. I am also on medications for both depression and anxiety.

So why am I here on this board? Because I want to fix myself, truly. I want to find a way back to my newly ex-girlfriend, because I know that I will never find a partner like her again. I have been to The Meadows for the sex addiction, but the problem is that it is not at the core of my problem, Love Avoidance is. I need to address that. The Meadows does offer an intensive weeklong program on Love Addiction/Love Avoidance, which I am not totally sold one for two reasons, I know what I am, there is no ambiguity around it. I don't want to spend half a week identifying if I really am one. That part is done. Also I don't want to compare my issue with Love Addicts.

Wow, that was quite the brain dump. I put it out there for any people who are true Love Avoidants to let you know you are not alone (a fact I think this thread illustrates) but also asking if you have had any successes, treatments (therapeutic, pharmacological or otherwise) please share them.

Does it ever get better, does it ever get better, does it ever get better. That's half of what I think about. I wish somebody really knew how to fix this. Because as things stand now it's incurable. It's a unique disability, uniquely destructive. I can't imagine for example living with chronic physical pain, but someone living with chronic physical pain probably can't imagine living with AvPD, which has a symptom chronic internal pain. I sometimes wonder if some AvPD lives are lives not worth living. I've pretty much decided that about my own AvPD life. There's no hope and the disorders special twist is that we know there is no hope. Having Down Syndrome, for example, would t hurt this bad, even though it's in many ways more debilitating. Somebody give me a reason to hope. Somebody say they got better, really better. (Knockknock, I'm happy for you, but your AvPD if it is AvPD is nothing like anyone else's.)

This thread is great!, please keep posting KnockKnock.

I wonder how you quit using avoidance as a coping mechanism.
I try to see myself quitting avoidance, but find it nearly impossible to see my life without it.
To give an example, while I'm at the gym (joining a gym was a huge step for me) I'm still avoiding people, like I avoid the free weights section, just because most guys are there and I avoid social contact with them, afraid of the typical things, like humiliation and just a negative response somehow.

But I do want to train in the free weights section, so if I quit my avoidance behavior I have to go there.
I honestly find it impossible to go there, so I can't see how I can break my avoidance behavior.

Can you please give me/us more advice on that part?

Just came across this, its great to hear that there is hope.

Swimmer25, I completely understand about simultaneously trying to quit using avoidance, but then simultaneously being dependent upon it. Almost like peering of a cliff and knowing you need to jump to the other side, but standing frozen with fear.

KnockKnock, I think your explanation about intellectualization as a way of avoiding actually feeling the emotions really resonated with me. This is something Ive tried to speak about with therapists, but I constantly sit on this knife edge, with people continually being amazed at how insightful I am, rather than realising that I use this in a desperate attempt to avoid the anxiety. Admittedly therapy has helped me really understand why I do the things that I do, but I still dont feel safe enough to feel those feelings, they just feel too strong, does anyone else feel this way?

Thanks for the inspiration everyone, I guess at the end of the day we must face our demons, now I just have to try and find a therapist who I can do this with

PS: There is a self-help book written which may be of interest, which discusses the different critical thought patterns (re: critical parent, angry child etc).This book helped me immensely in better understanding my critical thought patterns, especially helping me have a dialogue about these with a therapist. http://www.schematherapy.com/id202.htm

Hope this may be helpful to someone. Look forward to more inspiration and optimism