Move on?

by **captain ad hoc** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:35 pm

[Not completely unprompted, but probably unnecessary response of mine. Redacting myself.]

captain ad hoc wrote:Hey everyone!

My question might be more of a general "relationship question" than a specific AvPD one, but I think it qualifies for being here. On to the explanation...

Some background. (Sorry if it sounds all random, I'm -- unsuccessfully -- trying to be concise.) I'm a loner; she's a loner. Neither of us have ever been in any "couple-like" relationship, or anything close to that. We're both about the same age (mid-late twenties). We live in different continents, and have never been abroad. I've always wanted to travel; she'd rather stay home. She can't be away from her family; mine is already scattered, and I like it better this way. I'm a practical guy; she's a daydreamer. I'm more of a "schizoid type"; she's definitely more of an "avoidant type" (she has or has had every single one of the "classic traits"). She's been taking meds for several years, and they seem to have been working for her (she couldn't live a functional life before them; now she's still insecure, but she does live a normal life).

We've (presumably!..) never met, but we've been talking online for years (almost every day for some time now). If you ask me, we've been in a relationship for several months now (an unusual one, but still). If you ask her, she gets confused and can't find a word for it -- she just knows it's not a "relationship". Back when she didn't think I was actually going to be (geographically) near her anytime in the foreseeable future, she used to say things like "if only you lived next door". Now, whenever I mention that I'm actually going to be in her country soon (not just because of her, btw), she either gives me no reply or tries to push me back (though always making it clear that she doesn't want to lose whatever it is we already have). The other day she told me she was afraid of disappointing me. I think I've managed to convince her that, if that did happen (I honestly doubt she could ever make such a bad impression -- I know her, she's awesome!), then it would have been my fault, not hers.

Several times she's expressed in some way or another (though always subtly) that she was afraid of hurting me because she didn't have for me all the feelings I had for her. I think I've also managed to convince her that it would be unreasonable to expect anything different. I can be emotional, but I'm definitely not romantic.

Today I was more direct with her, and after I insisted on talking about it, she was direct with me too. I "tried" to make her say that she didn't want to be in a relationship with me -- she didn't say that. She did say though, several times, that she can't be in a relationship, not just with me, but with anyone (I know for a fact she's not asexual -- or gay). She was thankful that I was understanding, and I was glad that she said that. If anything, we both like each other more. She's my best friend, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Anyway.. In the end, I'm still convinced that it's all about unfounded fears, and she's still convinced that it's a fact that she can't be in a real relationship.

It'll be a few months before I have the means to leave the country, and I don't want to start anything here. But I've got my head in the future, I need some kind of resolution so I can know where I'm heading to.

The question(s), then: Should I give up, "get over her" and move on? It's not up to me to choose for her, but is she really making a choice? Could she be afraid of losing an "idealised me" if we did meet?

It's hard for me to reconcile what I don't even know about. And I don't think she understands it herself. I know she would have explained it to me if she did.

Note: I'll be thankful for any advice. But strictly speaking, I probably won't follow any... So bad advice is just as welcome as good advice.

This will sound harsh but from my experience she could be using you to get attention. Women love attention, especially women who have mental problems because she's probably not getting much attention in real life. There's a good chance she already has a boyfriend or husband that treats her like crap and she goes online to get what she's not getting from them.

I had one particular ex online GF that I "dated" for about 10 months. We would talk for hours and even discussed getting married. We "broke up" because she said I felt too strongly about her, she couldn't ever meet me in real life, she wasn't ready for a relationship, blah blah blah.

3 years later I found out the truth. She had been married for years, used a false name, used fake pictures, and she didn't live anywhere near where she said she did. I had a few more experiences just like it with other women online later on. Chances are the girl you're talking about is doing the same exact thing. These are the women I refer to as vampires.

My advice is never try to form a relationship like that with anybody unless you can meet them in person. Otherwise you're just living a fantasy that doesn't really exist. In the end you'll just get hurt badly.

by **captain ad hoc** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:46 am

Superman23 wrote:This will sound harsh but from my experience she could be using you to get attention. Women love attention, especially women who have mental problems because she's probably not getting much attention in real life. There's a good chance she already has a boyfriend or husband that treats her like crap and she goes online to get what she's not getting from them.

I had one particular ex online GF that I "dated" for about 10 months. We would talk for hours and even discussed getting married. We "broke up" because she said I felt too strongly about her, she couldn't ever meet me in real life, she wasn't ready for a relationship, blah blah blah.

3 years later I found out the truth. She had been married for years, used a false name, used fake pictures, and she didn't live anywhere near where she said she did. I had a few more experiences just like it with other women online later on. Chances are the girl you're talking about is doing the same exact thing. These are the women I refer to as vampires.

My advice is never try to form a relationship like that with anybody unless you can meet them in person. Otherwise you're just living a fantasy that doesn't really exist. In the end you'll just get hurt badly.

I hear you, Super. I'm quite aware of that possibility, and I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through that, and I hope you don't ever have to go through anything like it again. That is just cruel. I've been used by attention-seekers before in real life too (though in much less serious ways). But from every sign I could gather so far, that doesn't seem to be the case with my friend. Unlike with the girls who used me in the past, it does feel like a healthy two-way conversation with her. Besides, we've exchanged letters and trinkets through the post, and I know many many details about her life and her family, they all seem very consistent. I have her as a friend on Facebook and I've seen her interacting with friends and relatives there. Everything is possible, of course, but it would take a conspiracy-theory-level story for her to be a fake. I appreciate your concerns anyway. They're obviously not unfounded.

Edit: I think it's worth noting, I didn't meet her through a dating site. I met her on ICQ ages ago, when I was just looking for someone to practice English with and she was recovering from a period of severe agoraphobia. We lost touch after a while, then last year I found a piece of paper with her address while I was cleaning a drawer. I sent her a postcard with my current email address on it, asking her how things had been going, and we started talking again.

by **captain ad hoc** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:12 am

This week I was unusually tired because of the stress of going to the wedding last weekend (and drinking, which technically I shouldn't), and I had lots of overdue work, so I was offline for IM all week. Not the first or the second time this happens, so we kept communicating through email just as usual. And, like my friend in question herself put it once: "We have our occasional silence, but it's never an awkward one." So, recapping and updating the scoreboard:

- I go to the wedding of an old friend, who happens to have spent most of her several years of relationship, with her now-husband, thousands of miles aways from him. (Incidentally, she has visible anxiety issues and both of them are introverts, even though one is the "talker" and the other is the "quiet" one.)

- I get inspired and write down a message to my friend (the one I'm interested in) telling their story and telling her that, even if we weren't looking for each other (just like my old friend and her husband weren't), if we were to be looking, it was us we should have found. I tell her that it's worth making a commitment to trying, and I end my message with the emblematic "Will you be my girlfriend?" (To which, knowing her, I don't expect a "yes" in any direct form.)

- [fill in with previous posts]

- Communication seems to remain just the same as before.

- A couple days later, I send her a message with direct criticism over her apparently selective reticence on some other unrelated subject. She promptly replies with an apology, I accept it, and we go on with the conversation that hadn't started.

- Later on, same day (now, this is new), she sends me a message asking about something in regards to my general outlook on life (which is something I love to talk about, and often ask her about).

- Later on, previous messaging thread already over, still same day, she sends me yet another question of that type.

Now, I'm going to take a nap. Because I deserve it.

by **mondocane** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:55 pm

Is your plan to be in her country definite? Does it depend mostly on her or is it something you want to do regardless of the prospect of meeting her?

Supposing you meet her and the meeting goes as you hoped what would be the next step - is there any realistic chance of you being able to stick around or stay in relative proximity?

Did you ever video chat or talk over the phone or something like that?

Note: I'll be thankful for any advice. But strictly speaking, I probably won't follow any...

Wise

by **captain ad hoc** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:53 pm

mondocane wrote:Is your plan to be in her country definite? Does it depend mostly on her or is it something you want to do regardless of the prospect of meeting her?

Supposing you meet her and the meeting goes as you hoped what would be the next step - is there any realistic chance of you being able to stick around or stay in relative proximity?

Did you ever video chat or talk over the phone or something like that?

Note: I'll be thankful for any advice. But strictly speaking, I probably won't follow any...

Wise

All very good questions! I think about all that stuff a lot.

My plan to move (temporarily or even permanently) to her country is mostly based on my professional interests as a translator and prospective teacher. Even if we lost touch and had no hope of ever talking again, I'd still go on with it.

I have double nationality, so staying there is technically not a problem. I don't feel like I belong here or anywhere else in particular, so I don't think it's a cultural problem either.

We haven't talked through audio or video yet, mostly because I hate phones and I doubt she likes them any better than I do. It could also be awkward since we're both living with our parents at the moment (at least in my house, it's hard to find the appropriate space for privacy). But I've introduced the idea of sending voice or video recordings. She doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with it. We've moved already from email to IM overnight without any pain, so it's possible we could make a habit out of that too.

Again, really appreciate your input!

by **brainslug** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:29 pm

Okay, I have read the original post, but have only skimmed the rest, but I think I understand enough to respond.

I am going to try to explain the situation from the avoidant-like point of view based on my own behavior. Do realize(and I am sure you do, but I just want be clear) that I am not her. I am a male, a lot younger, and possibly even completely different in what the underlying cause of my behavior is. So, don't take this advice too concretely (although your last sentence is quite comforting in this matter, ha ha). I will say this mostly using first person pronouns, so just translate this into your situation. This is going to be assuming that she have avoidant behaviors and the problem is not due to something else.

Firstly, when you say that you feel as though you have been in a relationship for two months now, it is very likely that she does not think this. Personally, I have a really hard time believing that I am liked in personal situations. Even if I am presented with ample evidence in favor of the contrary, I have a very hard time shaking off the possible (however unlikely) doubts. Even a small amount of doubt can demolish my perception. I don't mean to sound like a broken record because I have said this before, but a girl asked me to prom every day for at least a month while flirting with me and I still did not believe that she had any real interest in me. I thought it was a joke and that if I accepted, she would be mad at me. If you have not made it clear, I would say to be absolutely clear about the situation. It sounds like maybe she has some doubts, but honestly, I don't know how to get rid of them and it sounds like you have been pretty clear.

Maybe you could add a sense of urgency to it somehow. This may hurt her very much mentally, but maybe it is for the best. This is very manipulative, but it may work very well to cause her fear of you leaving her to be greater than her current fear. Personally, though I would like for a girl to manipulate me in this way (but I am kind of strange [and that's an understatement]). Be careful, though because if you do this while talking to her online, I am afraid that it may be too easy for her to escape due to the stress of the situation. I would suggest you wait until you get into the same country and then, only do it if avoiding you would be difficult. An example of where this would work is if you worked at the same place as her and saw her every day. I would imagine her though process would be something like this "I like him, but I don't want things to be awkward if I act like I like him back and he doesn't really like me. But if he does actually like me, and I don't act back, then I will have screwed up and hurt him, and I will have to see him every day as a reminder." You just have to convince her that either the chance of you liking her is almost definite or that the situation will be much more awkward if she does not act back. I really like to be pressured to do things in this way because it makes my inhibition act against itself, and, ironically, I feel more free than if I was given the choice. Of course, if she doesn't like you back, this would be a disaster for her, which brings me to the final point. Also, don't let her hurt herself because of this, and obviously use caution.

Do be sure that you understand culture differences. I don't mean to question your social sense, but if the country is an East Asian country, the situation is much more complicated. I am sure you are familiar with them if you are planning on living there, but it is a definite factor to consider.

I hope everything works out the way it should. Good luck, friend.

by **captain ad hoc** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:21 pm

On one hand, that's all old news to me, but on the other hand, the way you put it does help me understand it. Thanks a lot for posting, brainslug.

brainslug wrote:If you have not made it clear, I would say to be absolutely clear about the situation. It sounds like maybe she has some doubts, but honestly, I don't know how to get rid of them and it sounds like you have been pretty clear.

Yes, you can be bure I'm always very clear. I don't hide my thoughts, and I'm even more straightforward with her than I am here. Sometimes I do shelve my thoughts for later so she doesn't get overwhelmed, but even when I do so, I tell her I'm doing it.

Maybe you could add a sense of urgency to it somehow.

That's the next serious thing I'll be talking with her about, as soon as I spot a good chance for serious talk. I don't intend to make it about me though. She's very very emotionally dependent on her close family. That kind of family relationship can't last forever, and the day it breaks, it's a wound that can be impossible to heal.

She has already implied that she's not comfortable with it. (She's uncomfortable that her sister-in-law is her best friend, even though I don't think this fact itself is a bad thing at all.) If I can somehow convince her that she can fare much better than she thinks she could without depending on her family, then not being that much afraid of losing me or of being hurt by me is almost a minor beneficial side effect.

I would imagine her though process would be something like this "I like him, but I don't want things to be awkward if I act like I like him back and he doesn't really like me. But if he does actually like me, and I don't act back, then I will have screwed up and hurt him, and I will have to see him every day as a reminder."

This does sound like her. I know she can be afraid of doing things she "likes too much", so I guess the same might apply even more to me. (For those who saw the pun here, it was unintended, but I guess it fits... lol) I hadn't thought about it this way.

Do be sure that you understand culture differences. I don't mean to question your social sense, but if the country is an East Asian country, the situation is much more complicated. I am sure you are familiar with them if you are planning on living there, but it is a definite factor to consider.

We've already talked about how surprisingly similar our culture is when we take a close look at it (meaning our close-circle culture, not necessarily that of our countries as a whole). Besides, we are both westerners. So no worries on this one.

I hope everything works out the way it should. Good luck, friend.

Thanks!

by **captain ad hoc** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:22 am

Question answered:

Move on?

Yes.

Her reasons for hesitating or rejecting my perspective were none of the ones we came up with here. But this time I was prepared to rule out ambiguities and cut to the chase. The discussion lasted four fairly short emails (considering..), two of them mine and two of them hers. From my point of view it worked out very well, even if the conclusion was not the exact one I has hoping for. Life goes on and we're both still glad to have each other to talk with.

Assuming there is a baseline "normal" to go back to, things are back to normal right now. Even though I do acknowledge that I'm experiencing a truckload of different feelings inside. But that's a matter for the Schizoid Forum.

So, unsurprisingly, nobody here was right (I wasn't either). But listening to what you guys had to say about it was very helpful (even the pessimistic replies). Thank you all.

by **tlepS drawkcaB** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:53 pm

Good to see you got some sort of closure.

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