Move on?

Hey everyone!

My question might be more of a general "relationship question" than a specific AvPD one, but I think it qualifies for being here. On to the explanation...

Some background. (Sorry if it sounds all random, I'm -- unsuccessfully -- trying to be concise.) I'm a loner; she's a loner. Neither of us have ever been in any "couple-like" relationship, or anything close to that. We're both about the same age (mid-late twenties). We live in different continents, and have never been abroad. I've always wanted to travel; she'd rather stay home. She can't be away from her family; mine is already scattered, and I like it better this way. I'm a practical guy; she's a daydreamer. I'm more of a "schizoid type"; she's definitely more of an "avoidant type" (she has or has had every single one of the "classic traits"). She's been taking meds for several years, and they seem to have been working for her (she couldn't live a functional life before them; now she's still insecure, but she does live a normal life).

We've (presumably!..) never met, but we've been talking online for years (almost every day for some time now). If you ask me, we've been in a relationship for several months now (an unusual one, but still). If you ask her, she gets confused and can't find a word for it -- she just knows it's not a "relationship". Back when she didn't think I was actually going to be (geographically) near her anytime in the foreseeable future, she used to say things like "if only you lived next door". Now, whenever I mention that I'm actually going to be in her country soon (not just because of her, btw), she either gives me no reply or tries to push me back (though always making it clear that she doesn't want to lose whatever it is we already have). The other day she told me she was afraid of disappointing me. I think I've managed to convince her that, if that did happen (I honestly doubt she could ever make such a bad impression -- I know her, she's awesome!), then it would have been my fault, not hers.

Several times she's expressed in some way or another (though always subtly) that she was afraid of hurting me because she didn't have for me all the feelings I had for her. I think I've also managed to convince her that it would be unreasonable to expect anything different. I can be emotional, but I'm definitely not romantic.

Today I was more direct with her, and after I insisted on talking about it, she was direct with me too. I "tried" to make her say that she didn't want to be in a relationship with me -- she didn't say that. She did say though, several times, that she can't be in a relationship, not just with me, but with anyone (I know for a fact she's not asexual -- or gay). She was thankful that I was understanding, and I was glad that she said that. If anything, we both like each other more. She's my best friend, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Anyway.. In the end, I'm still convinced that it's all about unfounded fears, and she's still convinced that it's a fact that she can't be in a real relationship.

It'll be a few months before I have the means to leave the country, and I don't want to start anything here. But I've got my head in the future, I need some kind of resolution so I can know where I'm heading to.

The question(s), then: Should I give up, "get over her" and move on? It's not up to me to choose for her, but is she really making a choice? Could she be afraid of losing an "idealised me" if we did meet?

It's hard for me to reconcile what I don't even know about. And I don't think she understands it herself. I know she would have explained it to me if she did.

Note: I'll be thankful for any advice. But strictly speaking, I probably won't follow any... So bad advice is just as welcome as good advice.

I liked your last sentence

Why don't you ask if she is interested in a non formal type relationship?

Would doing something like having the occasional physical meet up or date work, whilst retaining your online relationship on the same basis its at now?

G'day cap,

I wonder if finally meeting is far too serious for her and maybe she is happy to have a friend but is still yet to find herself under the blanket of avoidance.

Basically, the avoidance is stronger and the fear of being hurt by ones she has loved (parents, friends etc) is a thought she may carry around.

cap, I still wouldn't give up hope through, like you said it will be a little time before you get the funds together and possibly in this time she will get used to the idea.

That sounded like I have money both ways, but time to get used to the idea and how she feels at the moment could all change.

Wish you well
Dwight

Thank you both for your replies! You're actually being very helpful.

tlepS drawkcaB wrote:I liked your last sentence

Why don't you ask if she is interested in a non formal type relationship?

Would doing something like having the occasional physical meet up or date work, whilst retaining your online relationship on the same basis its at now?

Yes, that's been my exact "plan" from the start. Thing is even that would be beyond the line of never meeting. Initiating face-to-face contact seems to be the problem, rather than sustaining it. She's uncomfortable with the idea of me ceasing to be someone she can pretend exists only in a parallel world. And I'm uncomfortable with her forever existing only in a parallel world...

Dwight wrote:G'day cap,

I wonder if finally meeting is far too serious for her and maybe she is happy to have a friend but is still yet to find herself under the blanket of avoidance.

Basically, the avoidance is stronger and the fear of being hurt by ones she has loved (parents, friends etc) is a thought she may carry around.

cap, I still wouldn't give up hope through, like you said it will be a little time before you get the funds together and possibly in this time she will get used to the idea.

That sounded like I have money both ways, but time to get used to the idea and how she feels at the moment could all change.

Wish you well
Dwight

In some ways she's very aware of her avoidance-related behaviour, but she doesn't seem to find any link between that and her expressed impossibility of being in a relationship. I think that's what puzzles me the most.

We've also talked about this several times: it's a mystery where she got her fears from. She never went through any specific traumatic event, and her family is very friendly and supportive.

Okay, after browsing the forum a bit more, I've gathered advice given to me and to others here, and I'm taking most of them more as a reassurance than as unexpected directions to be followed. Anyways I think they've helped me a lot in understanding what is or at least might be happening. I haven't seen anyone describing the particular communication approach I've been using (which I think seems to be working rather well, considering). I think it's worth writing it down in case anyone else here is interested. Or maybe so an actual avoidant may point out something they think is a blatant mistake.

First off (this is not exactly about approach, but I think it's essential), I don't require constant interaction or proximity. She actually initiates conversation more than I do (!!). We've been interacting online-only for years. I'm not completely comfortable with it, but I can live with it for the time being. I can imagine being perfectly happy in a relationship where I'd only meet her in person once a month, for example. As long as I knew it was meant to last. I just need some assurance that it's real.

Now the actual communication approach. Rather than reassuring her that she's never going to receive criticism (which she will) or feel hurt (which she will), I try to reassure her that things are going to be fine after it happens. I never tell her that directly, and I don't ever intend to. I know she can't simply take my word for it, even though she does trust me. Instead, I simply don't keep to myself my criticism of things she likes (not about her liking them, but about bands/artists/movies/etc themselves).

She actually started doing this to me before I did it to her. I could tell that being able to openly criticise "me" (through the things I liked) was something new to her. She has introduced me to some of my absolute favourites in music, and vice-versa. So it's clear that even if "this or that singer is awful", it doesn't mean that this other and that other one can't be awesome. (You see where I'm getting at, don't you?..)

Lately I've been letting out some of my frustrations actually related to her (most of which ironically seem to be due to her fear of letting me down). So far it seems it's being a good thing. We both ended the two or three conversations of that kind we had in a good mood, even if it didn't solve what was supposedly being discussed.

Another thing, by the way. That conversation we had that led me to think about first posting here, it started after I went to a wedding of an old friend, drank a beer or two, and then got home and wrote an email asking her (after some kind and encouraging words): "will you be my girlfriend?". The next day she started our chat, like she usually does, and we talked the usual things, as if she hadn't read my message. With no apparent change of tone, at all, and no mention of the subject.

When she was about to sign off, I told her that I knew she had read my message and was ignoring it. She said "I don't know what to say. I'm sorry, I can't be your girlfriend". That must have been hard for her. But there were no wounds or scars left. We kept talking for a while, and she ended the conversation with a "Thank you for being so... you about it". If that's not "I love you too" in disguise, I don't know what is... In this strange world of loners, I think that was progress.

Now I'll wait at least another week or two before I touch the "relationship" subject. Although the next time I'll probably do it with humour, since she already knows my feelings and my thoughts, so there'll be no room for misunderstanding. I've just sent her an email complaining about another (seemingly harmless) question I've asked her that she's been ignoring. Let's see how it turns out...

My advice is just forget the whole online LDR thing. Especially if you are avie or schizoid, because that is exactly what your condition will keep you locked in forever. You've got to force yourself away from that. Just get out. Do it today!

AlAtBar wrote:My advice is just forget the whole online LDR thing. Especially if you are avie or schizoid, because that is exactly what your condition will keep you locked in forever. You've got to force yourself away from that. Just get out. Do it today!

Nah I wouldn't worry about that. As long as I feel like I'm in control of the situation, which I think I still am (she'd kill me if she read this.. ), things are never going to be stagnant. She makes my life better even from a distance, so what am I to lose? I've tried meeting people where I live. I simply can't like them.

If I eventually get to face an actual need (not just a wish) to decide between moving on or not, I'll do so. I'll talk to her, and if there's no way things can progress to a satisfactory degree, I'll say "Girl, I love you and I'll keep loving you. And you are and you'll remain a great friend. But damn, are you complicated!.. Honestly hope you find someone someday. Hugs, see you around."

Read my post again. Pay attention to the details and you'll see what I mean.

Besides... Do you really think I'd still be willing to invest in this (potentially doomed) relationship if I wasn't drawn to a challenge?..

captain ad hoc wrote:Read my post again. Pay attention to the details and you'll see what I mean.

Nope. If an avie or schizoid is posting about and online LDR there is no need to read the details. Same story as a hundred times before. Just get out. Now.

"The question(s), then: Should I give up, "get over her" and move on? It's not up to me to choose for her, but is she really making a choice? Could she be afraid of losing an "idealized me" if we did meet?"

I think it has already been answered. She said no..

Is she online right now, asking how to go out with you on a date? Hmmm.

I have learned a few things in the real world.

However, I cant speak for email. Im just learning how to communicate correctly with this medium.

In the real world:

1. When the girl walks in the room. She picks 3 to 4 guys she likes within seconds. If you are not one of them. You are not one of them. No attraction. Game over.

2. IF she is attracted to you, and you walk up say hello, make her laugh, ask her out and she says no. You can try again. However, No is No. If it continues to be no. THen move on.

3. What kind of relationship are you building with her online. " Im your friend relationship" or, Im going to be your future husband " relationship. If your in the friend zone, You have to get out of it, and get her out of it. Get her back to the " he's going to be my husband" zone.

Your going to be in her country. This doesn't sound right.. It sounds creepy.

Ask her one more time through email.

1. "Will you go out with me". if no. Leave her alone. If not yes, leave her alone.

2. Q. Does she want you to come near her physically. Meaning her address. Ask her. If she doesn't say yes. Leave it alone.

Honestly you sound a bit needy. a bit obsessive.

You might want to talk to a therapist...

AlAtBar wrote:

captain ad hoc wrote:Read my post again. Pay attention to the details and you'll see what I mean.

Nope. If an avie or schizoid is posting about and online LDR there is no need to read the details. Same story as a hundred times before. Just get out. Now.

Man I had a feeling you'd come back here just to say that. Even if you are right, you should know that telling me what I don't want to hear without giving me any plausible explanation is just going to make me more stubborn about the opinions I already have. Again, read my post. You'd know better if you had. Now... try and convince me.

OMNICELL wrote:"The question(s), then: Should I give up, "get over her" and move on? It's not up to me to choose for her, but is she really making a choice? Could she be afraid of losing an "idealized me" if we did meet?"

I think it has already been answered. She said no..

She did. After I kinda pushed her. And then she thanked and complimented me, after I insisted it made no sense for her to think she could never be in a relationship, and that we still had a shot.

...hm that's straightforward.

OMNICELL wrote:Is she online right now, asking how to go out with you on a date? Hmmm.
I have learned a few things in the real world.
However, I cant speak for email. Im just learning how to communicate correctly with this medium.
In the real world:
1. When the girl walks in the room. She picks 3 to 4 guys she likes within seconds. If you are not one of them. You are not one of them. No attraction. Game over.
2. IF she is attracted to you, and you walk up say hello, make her laugh, ask her out and she says no. You can try again. However, No is No. If it continues to be no. THen move on.
3. What kind of relationship are you building with her online. " Im your friend relationship" or, Im going to be your future husband " relationship. If your in the friend zone, You have to get out of it, and get her out of it. Get her back to the " he's going to be my husband" zone.

She's my friend and that's what matters most to me. RMP.

OMNICELL wrote:Your going to be in her country. This doesn't sound right.. It sounds creepy.

How... on earth would that be creepy? (Dude this is getting tiring. RMFP.) I'm not travelling just because of her. Sorry, but if you think it's creepy, you're thinking like an egocentric.

OMNICELL wrote:Ask her one more time through email.
1. "Will you go out with me". if no. Leave her alone. If not yes, leave her alone.
2. Q. Does she want you to come near her physically. Meaning her address. Ask her. If she doesn't say yes. Leave it alone.

Right, and you apply textbook "romanthematics" to avoidants and schizoids. Clever.

And yes, I do know her home address. I could drop by unexpectedly and scare the shlt out of her if I wanted, and she knows that.

OMNICELL wrote:Honestly you sound a bit needy. a bit obsessive.
You might want to talk to a therapist...

And you sound patronising. Even! High five!