I feel doomed

It's nice to have found this forum, if for no other reason than the fact that, by reading some of these threads, I can take some small consilation in the fact that I'm not the only person in America alone and inside his/her apartment on a Friday night. (Or am I?) Perhaps some of you can identify with this scenario: say you go out driving for whatever reason--maybe you want to go somewhere like Barnes and Noble or something--and 2/3 of the vehicles you pass have some guy behind the wheel (he's probably wearing a baseball cap; backwards, more often than not) and a beautiful girlfriend in the passenger's seat. The remaining 1/3rd might be *physically* alone, but each is talking on his/her cell-phone. You've been brave, left your place, gone out into public, but now you regret doing so because, essentially, you've had rubbed in your face how different and alone you are; you've seen all the things you can't seem to do and don't know how to get.

I'm a 26 year-old male who, in particular, is helpless when it comes to initiating conversation with a woman whom I find attractive. The first thought that comes to my mind is always something along the lines of this: "I find her attractive, and it's for that very reason that she won't want anything to do with me. Why bother?" So it's not just a fear of rejection. It's being resigned to defeat, thanks to my magical thinking. It's kind of funny, because I don't believe in bad luck, don't believe in curses...except when it comes to me! Sometimes, I feel like there exists some higher power that enjoys humiliating me, withholding from me my basic human need for companionship and love just to watch me squirm and suffer; one that presents me with situations which appear at first to be promising, just so that I allow myself to get my hopes up and be dissapointed even more when the other shoe drops. Intellectually, I know that this is (almost certainly) not true, but, emotionally, I sometimes find it hard to otherwise explain some of what's happened to me throughout my life.

As I mentioned above, I'm only 26. But in that time, I've undergone four open-heart surgeries to repair a congenital defect, once when I was 5 months old, once when I was 6 years old, once when I was 21, and--the most traumatic one of them all--one two summers ago that came a hair's breadth away from killing me. I was one of those poor souls ostracized during high school for, you know, not liking football enough, for reading too much, for being comparatively scrawny, etc., and in a school of just 300 students, 7th-12th grade, there didn't exist many alternate avenues of socialization. If any of my childhood crises left embedded in my brain the idea that I was a piece of damaged goods, inferior, somehow broken and in need of fixing, defective, etc., then I was able to keep such thoughts stuffed away in my unconscious until high school, where I was finally taken to task, so to speak, for my these "shortcomings" nobody'd pointed out before.

None of these things, I'm guessing, will impress the reader who's unfamiliar with what it's like to have been a chronically-ill child. And I suppose that, compared to some of the indignities inflicted on those poor souls who must sustain themselves while living in some third-world, war-torn, famine-ravaged country, my pain might seem insignificant. But, really, to me it's excruciating, and I'm beyond exhausted.

More than a decade ago, I was diagnosed with clinical depression of the major variety, and I've been prescribed almost every SSRI there is and gone through four or five therapists. The depression is apparently resistant to such things; my response to medication has always been minimal and my response to therapy, almost non-existent. My patience with all of this is just about exhausted, and so now I'm considering ECT. However, I'm afraid of how crushed I'll be if psychology's typically last-ditch effort doesn't work any better. Because of this, I'm almost reluctant to go through with it.

I'm just tired of life being something to be endured. I'm tired of sleeping in order to kill time in a pleasantly unconscious state. I fought too hard to survive the endless-seeming barrage of physical illnesses to have my life ruined by the mental kind.

Sorry this post is so long. I just have to talk about this stuff from time to time, even if that someone is a complete stranger. In any case, these are the nights I can almost believe that the obstacles will never cease and that it's futile to keep trying. I don't want to think that way, but it's getting more and more difficult not to.

I understand how you feel, as I have often felt the same. Aside from the fact that I am older, female, and have been married and divorced more than once, I can relate to what you are saying. I find it helpful to always have a purpose in mind, when I am out, so that I can focus my attention out and that way I am not thinking of myself as much and it makes a big difference. I like to smile at others and nod and or say "hello" or "good morning" or whatever, as I keep walking. The worst trouble that I have had recently is being filmed while I was listening to a lecture and then seeing myself later on a community TV program. I was devastated because I looked so darn prissy and tense.(not at all the way I felt inside) It actually caused me to become even more introverted and selfconscious. I don't know how to get beyond it anymore, but have decided "To Heck With It !" because as far as we know this is the only life we will have and I'll be darned if I am going to miss out on all the good stuff. What's the point in life if not to love it and appreciate having it ?
Don't give up on yourself because life is full of wonders and you never can tell what is around the next corner. You are young and have plenty of time. Good things will happen. In my opinion we humans sometimes just try too darn hard and it takes away all the fun.... Sorry I didn't intend to lecture or pontificate...what I am trying to express is that I think when we can focus our attention outside of ourselves then we may no longer feel alone. Have you tried this ?

I can definitely identify with your little senario about going out by yourself. I hate leaving my house for the fact that i know i will see happy couples or groups of friends having fun and i know i will feel jealous and resentful of them. I hate having these feelings and it makes me feel even more terrible about myself. Its gotten so bad now that i am almost house bound.

Sorry i dont have any great advice because i am fighting the same fight as you and i am getting my ass kicked. Life isnt very fair and i sure you learned that the hard way with all of your surgeries at a young age. You must to be a strong person to go through all of that. I guess we just have take what life gives us and keep trying to make the best of it, no matter what obstacles we face.

2B wrote:because as far as we know this is the only life we will have and I'll be darned if I am going to miss out on all the good stuff. What's the point in life if not to love it and appreciate having it ?

I want to "love" life. I want to "appreciate" it. But those aren't emotions I can turn on with the flip of a switch. You just feel a certain way, and that's it. You can attempt to involve yourself in different activities, direct your behavior in a certain way, do these things in the hopes that you'll be exposed to something better or that you'll initiate a tiny little victory and chip free just a tiny little piece of rock belonging to the hundred-pound boulder you carry on your back. I know these things. But it's just that the pace is so gruelingly slow. Even if I HAVE spent the past five years or so chiseling that boulder, what remains is still gigantic and so so heavy, and the weight has almost completely exhausted me.

What I'd really really like to have is someone who loves me, someone who sees all of my struggles and regards the person who's survived them as courageous and strong for having done so, not an off-kilter liability. I try and appreciate/love myself, but it's difficult when you've had somehow imprinted on you the idea that, regardless of how much inner fortitude you've once exhibited, it's left you so feeling so damaged that you have to hide yourself away and have to force yourself to slog through the day and do all the things you need to do, all the while lacking some of the human-as-social-animal's most basic needs and having little hope inside of ever achieving them. I've had, oh, three or four "girlfriends" in my life, but each relationship (one of which lasted four years) felt wrong and ended less than amicably, whether because of my baggage, the other person's baggage, or circumstances beyond anybody's control, or a combination thereof. I know the old saw about how loving yourself is a prerequisite for someone else loving you, but, given how screwed up I feel and how barren my days have become after all of this time, asking me to "love" myself is sort of like locking me in a completely empty room and ordering me to have an airpane built buy the time you get back. It's like, "Uh...I don't have anything to work with!" There's that cliche: you can't get a job without experience; you can't get experience without a job. Now replace "job" with "love" and "experience" with "loving yourself."

2B wrote:Good things will happen.

My God, I hope so, because I'm dying here. Speaking of God, if you and He are on good terms, please ask that he throw me a bone soon, especially after all the crap He's allowed to rain down on me.

Sorry, I have no idea how that must feel and most likely I had no right posting anything at all. I am a different personality obviously and although I came to these Forums because I wasn't feeling good about my own mental health, I realize now after reading posts here and the replies that I have received, that I am way out of my league. Maybe I don't have any problems afterall and should just go with the flow until my feelings pass. Who knows???
I am so sorry that you feel so down. It must be terrible. I am fortunate I guess in that I have always been able to get through bad feelings and bad times one way or another. I have been fortunate that I was born with some sort of innate ability to mostly ignore unpleasant feelings,( which in itself is a small miracle considering that both of my parents are depressed and emotional and very authoritarian), and or maybe take an antidepressant, or get drunk a little. Truthfully. if I can kick myself outdoors I usually find the everday life around me is often enough of a distraction to help me get over myself. I do struggle with lots of insecurities and have had lots of childhood difficulties, plus family stuff and divorces, and illness, I had breast cancer in 1992, but still I have been fortunate enough to always feel that there is something out there that is worth it all. That's obviously just me and my good fortune, so I am really, really sorry that there are folks in the world like yourself who aren't able, through no fault of their own, to see the goodness that is available to us all. Please look for it just a little okay ![/size]

Just so you know, I wasn't upset at you for responding/offering advice/etc. In fact, I probably should've prefaced that last post with a thank you. I mean, I appreciate your words. You have every right in the world to post whatever you want.

I had to kind of chuckle reading how you felt "out of [your] league" when compared to me and some of the others here. It's not exactly the sort of superiority one wants associated with himself.

My mom had/has breast cancer as well, though hers was considered "inflammatory"...don't know if that you're familiar with that term. Anyway, she was diagnosed back in 2001 or 2002...can't remember, exactly...and apparently got the whole "You've got X many years to live" speech. She underwent the usual surgery/chemo treatment and, as of this writing, has a tumor-marker (another cancer term) of 7, which, from what I know, is normal/better-than-normal. But inflammatory breast cancer never goes into full remission. The trick, I guess, is to keep it dormant for as long as possible. So, in the back of my mind, I worry about the inevitable day it explodes again into full-blown cancer. A big part of my fear is whether or not I'll be able to be more "successful" before she dies so I can prove to her that all of my/our suffering wasn't in vain. Meanwhile, though, I need to prove that to myself and am having an uncertain time doing that these days.

I live in San Antonio, and here they have this service called "It's Just Lunch." It's a national thing, as well. I guess it's what you'd call a "dating service," a term I sort of cringe at when I hear it given the stigma such places have--or used to have--associated with them. Anyway, since my problem seems to be the whole initiating contact bit, I signed up. See, the date is arranged for you. At the initial meeting, you're submitted to, like, a two-hour interview process during which you describe yourself and what you're looking for, etc.; from there, the director--who, for whatever it's worth, holds a psychology master's--makes a match for you, tells you the where's and when's, and you go meet, usually noonish for lunch for about an hour or so, or for drinks after work around 6-7pm. Anyhow, I've only met with one match so far, and she was all right, but it didn't take long for me to realize that I could never have a deep emotional connection with her; in fact, I found her a little shallow, a little boring (that sounds bad, but it's the truth). My second one's been arranged for Monday at noon. See, I'm very skeptical about any sort of unorthodox dating service/forum/etc. I (hypocritically) wonder to myself, "Okay...so is something significantly WRONG about the women who've signed up for this? If they were attractive and had a good personality, wouldn't they be having to beat off men with a stick without the help of some thousand-dollar program?" Then I think, "Well, wait a minute. I joined, too! Does this mean that there's something significantly wrong with me, too???" And I guess my chronic trouble with this type of love-shyness, avoision-prone behavior of mine DOES represent something wrong with me, but, in spite of it all, I know I make a good boyfriend/lover/etc. once I get my foot into the door. Anyway, I'm sort of rambling now, but the dynamics of the male's duty when it comes to dating are very different compared to the female's duty when it comes to the same thing. A guy could be, you know, handsome, intelligent, funny, etc., but nonetheless be afraid to show himself (and, if he has lots of neighbors--all of whom seem to have somebody of the opposite sex with them at all times--they're no doubt going to start wondering if he's gay.) I'm not sure if women have it better or worse given the waiting they have to do. It's no doubt a #######5 feeling to wait and wait and wait and have nobody approach you. It's also a unpleasent responsibility to have to be the one who breaks the ice.

And I guess that concludes my ruminations for the night.

Sorry to hear about your mother's cancer and prognosis. Here in Canada I think the diagnostic definitions (I am not sure of the correct terminology) are different than what you mentioned. I have blocked all the specifics of my experience with cancer. I seem to recall that it might have been classified as Stage 2 ??? I've no idea without digging out the paperwork. I had surgery, chemotherapy for six months, and radiation treatment for five weeks. I called the chemo my "weed and feed" treatments and the surgery and radiation the "slash and burn" Making light of things seems to help me cope ????
Anyway aside from all that I do hope that your mother and her doctors can get her well. There is great work being done in the breast cancer field now.
It was interesting to read that you have tried and will be trying again the dating match etc. Good for you ! That takes courage and certainly shows that you aren't avoiding life. Go for it, but are you really paying a thousand dollars for the service ? Good luck with your Monday visit.
What I don't understand, and it's most likely because I am no longer at your stage of life, is why you are so worried about wanting to meet someone so badly. It might just not be the right time for you to be in a relationship and maybe when the time is right it will just occur naturally. It could be a nice surprise just waiting to happen !
Sorry to be so inquisitive but what are your circumstances ? Possibly you mentioned more about yourself in your post and I should read it again. Are you employed ? Do you live with your family ? What do you look like ? Just trying to get a better picture in my mind. What are your interests and activities ? Are you creative ? Do you drive a car ? Do you have brothers and or sisters ? Are you religious ?
You mentioned in a previous post that if I had a relationship with God then could I put in a word for you or something along those lines. (As you can see I am not so computer literate that I have figured out how to make use of the editing tools here yet and I haven't even attempted to use the "quote" tool.) Anyway I don't have any relationship with a GOD of any kind that I am aware of. That's just another thing that I don't think about. I am beginning to realize that I must be truly "avoidant" because I just shut out, block, or don't bother thinking about anything unpleasant or that doesn't hold my attention. Maybe I am "Attention Deficit" ???? The thing is that it WORKS for me and that's what is most important as far as I am concerned and to heck with all the labels and analysis !
While browsing through the different menus here it amazed me all the labels and disorders that there are. I guess I have lived a sheltered life as I am really ignorant about these things. Since becoming involved with computers and the internet I have become an information junkie. For you it would be nothing because you most likely grew up with the technology, but for me and my peers it has been a revelation. Well I have rambled on and on and doing this on a Saturday night really seems a shame somehow, but isn't it great to be able to connect to the world this way ! Oh and I wasn't expecting any thank you etc. re the previous post and I was pleased that you weren't upset by my advice giving. If you don't want to respond I understand. I know that I am being extremely intrusive. Cheers !

Ah. You're in Canada. My favorite band, Our Lady Peace, is from there.

You asked why I seemed to want to be in a relationship so badly. I touched on it in a prior post. It's very simple: I want to experience the feeling of being loved by someone. I've experienced it before, but, for reasons too complicated to get into, unusual outside circumstances kind of hamstrung what should have been freer and more enjoyable. I feel guilty now that you've asked, in essence, "Dude! What's your deal???" I'm sure part of it is to prove myself "normal," part of it is to assert my masculinity--which is challenged when you've been the recipient of endless, implicent, "you're sick, you're weak, you're the runt of the litter"-type messages. My whole life from adolescence on, I've had to wonder whether I *can* be loved, wondering if all of the things "wrong" with me render me unlovable. I don't know the answer. Certainly there's a great deal of biological urgency involved, as well. You know what guys are like, so I probably don't have to explain this particular aspect in any more detail. At its core, though, I think that I'm someone who really thrives/appreciates affection.

See, a lot of what goes on in our romantic relationships can somehow be tied back to our relationship with our parents. It's scary, but it's true. If I can get Freudian for a second, I think that, given the almost constant medical emergencies that made my earliest childhood years so fraught with peril, I didn't receive the affection most babies are given, especially during that crucial first year of development. Partly, it may have been because there wasn't too much time for that sort of stuff; it's not like my parents were neglectful, but, I mean, if every so often I'm getting yanked out of their arms so that this or that test can be performed on me, then I'm spending a lot of time in a cold, clinical environment where the urgency of correcting a physical problem is of top priority, and my need for hugging, touching, cradling, etc. has to be put aside. Additionally, I suspect that my parents actually might *have* withheld affection during those first couple crucial developmental years, but that they did so unconsciously: if you had a baby, and that baby had a very good chance of dying sometime soon, would it be unreasonable to suggest that you might, on some deep-down level, be reluctant to get too attached to it? I've always wondered *why* it is that the love of a significant other is so important to my happiness, and I think the answer is this: I missed out on something that a majority of children receive and, once they become adults, take for granted having received in the way we all take for granted things like--I don't know--having two hands instead of one, walking on our own two feet instead of rolling around in a wheelchair, etc.

Like I mentioned before, lots of people confidently toss out the maxim about how you need to first love yourself before anyone else truly can. I DO see the underlying wisdom to that statement, but why is it so surprising for me to desire the companionship, support, and affection of a significant other, in part so that I have, at times, access to a sort of mirror or gauge of my value as a person? If we weren't hardwired to value and desire that sort of thing as humans, we'd never be fruitful and multiply, so to speak. Should I not have any friendships either until I completely 100% love myself? Is it a sign of weakness to want/need cameraderie, as well? We're social animals. So are dogs. Should a dog have to "prove" itself by living alone in the woods for a year, struggling to survive by itself? Stray dogs are miserable animals who'll die if they don't meet up with other strays in order to form a pack. Stray cats, on the other hand, can take it or leave it when it comes to socialization, and this is why there's an abundance of stray cats roaming here, there, and everywhere.

I guess I'd better get down off of my soapbox. Like I said before, I'm not upset/angry at you, and if the above does sound angry, then let me assure you that it's really more frustration than anything else, and it's not directed at any one person, especially a person I barely even know. I guess it's the kind of frustration a disfigured-by-third-degree-burns woman might feel watching candidates for Ms. America tell the judges how unimportant looks are.

As to your more specific questions about me and my life: I'm a recent college graduate with a degree in communication who considers himself an inspiring writer (then again, so do a lot of people; none of these hastily written posts on this board should be mistaken as representitive of my skills, mind you) and lives by himself (well, with his best bud of a cat named Snuffy) in an average, run-of-the-mill, middle-class apartment. Since graduating, I've found that, if I ever hope to rise above living from check to check for the rest of my life, I'm either going to have to write a best-seller in the next few years (right) or return to college and get a higher degree in something. It may just be a function of San Antonio's lousy job market, but, so far, all I've been able to find, despite my degree and my talent, are temp jobs here and there that last a month or so before ending, after which it's time to start searching again. As such, I'm "in between jobs" right now, which is really a fancy way of saying I'm unemployed. No doubt the oftentimes discouraging process of submitting my resume to 100 places and hearing back from none of them has contributed to the recent deteoration of my mood. No job for a month now, no girlfriend for three months now, and the only thing fairly certain about the future is that I'm probably going to have to submit myself to voluntary electrocution if I want to nip in the bud this decade-old depression that's only become worse in time.

Hmmm...what else did you ask? Oh, yeah. What I look like. I'm 6ft., 150+ lbs--which is probably a good twenty lbs. or so underweight--and have both brown eyes and (moderately lengthy) hair. Maybe I'll rustle up a picture one day and post it or something.

This has sure been a selfish exchange on my part. I haven't asked that much about you or anyone else around here. I just keep opining and complaining. I guess, though, that it's natural for someone who feels as though he's drowning to be too distracted to ask a fellow swimmer at the other side of the pool how he likes the weather today. Nonetheless, I feel a little guilty.

Positively no need to feel guilty about anything and also you don't come across as angry. Not to me.
I wondered if you were a writer. Everything that you post gives me that impression, you express yourself so well even though you modestly claim that these posts are not your good work. Your good stuff must be really impressive. Writing could be a lonely existence, as most creative work is. I think that all you have said is true and explains very well why you are feeling as you do. Looking for work constantly is an emotional drain and painful, plus living alone and not having a companion or girlfriend would give you way too much time to contemplate. Action always feels better to me and especially if it is meaningful. Your explanation of why you want a relationship is very logical. I hope someone finds you and appreciates you very soon. You sound like a very good catch to me. I don't think that anyone has to wait until they love themselves 100% before they can love or be loved by someone else. I think that it helps only in as much as we don't feel needy and desperate and perhaps can be more discerning in our choices. In other words we won't just settle for anyone. I like your thought about cats being able to take it or leave it. (socialization) It's true and it is also true that we are social animals, well most of us are anyway. I am at a stage right now where I sort of feel like a cat.
That probably won't last. Hmmmm ......
Are you really sure that the electric shock treatment is your next step ? I wouldn't do it for anything, ever ! I was on antidepressants a few years ago and they worked very well, however they caused me to gain weight which I didn't need. Have you ever had any thyroid testing done ? Low thyroid function can cause feelings of depression and lethargy. It's easy to correct.
You didn't ask but I live alone. I am not working. Not retired, but gave up doing the resumes and the job searching for awhile.

Here's a picture. It's tall and thin. But, then again, given that it's of me, it'd have to be tall and thin...



Regarding the ECT treatment, a lot of people have the misconception that it'd be like that famous scene from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I'm not sure if it was ever quite that barbaric, but, in any event, what goes on these days is that you're anesthetized and out like a light when they do it, and, on top of that, you're given muscle relaxants before you go under; being unconscious and taking the relaxants all but eliminates the chance that you'd break a bone convulsing in response to the shock. (I say "all but eliminate" because, when it comes to medical procedures, it's never wholly accurate to say "such-and-such could NEVER happen") I don't know if you know this, but, when it comes to major depression, ECT is actually the most successful treatment, statistically speaking. The reasons why it isn't done to everybody right away as they walk through the therapist's door are: a.) with most people, meds&therapy work pretty well & b.) most people react to the idea like you did in your last post (which, by the way, is understandable).

I do have a few friends, and I have had a smattering of girlfriends in the past, even though I don't have one presently (I mentioned once being involved w/ someone for about four years; this was one of those cases where I should have ended things WAY WAY earlier than I did, not because she wasn't a good person, etc., but because she didn't have enough time/room in her life to devote to us what's usually expected of each person. So, despite being unhappy, I stayed in the hopes that things would one day change as she promised they would; also, I loved her. So, in a way, I sacrificed myself and those years, during which I could have [maybe] been involved otherwise and, most likely, ended up a happier, more experienced, better rounded guy). Oh, dear God am I getting self-absorbed here. Um...anyway, I guess the long and short of it is that I need more than I have now: more friends, more girlfriends.

I look at my picture now, and I'm thinking how the Net is such a double-edged sword. If it weren't for the Net, this kind of communication taking place here with no regard to geography or anything else wouldn't be possible. On the other hand, I think that, especially for people who struggle with issues of avoidance-type behavior, the Net can actually contribute to the problem. Someone might be less likely to make that brave move to meet somebody or join a group in person because, he/she thinks, "Oh, it's okay if I don't; I have an online community to fall back on!" I guess what I mean is that one can get so caught up in describing his/her problem to a message-board of eager, empathetic, commiserating readers that he/she forgoes making the changes required. I always try and maintain a certain vigilance in order that I don't do that, because it's so easy to let yourself get lost like that. I'm definitely one of those people skeptical of the supposed good which "progress" has allowed us. As a communication major, I'm particularly attuned to the paradox of how the effortlessness of communicating these days--what with the Internet damn near everywhere, email, cell-phones, fax machines, phone cards, text messaging, everybody in the world with a website, blah blah blah, etc.--hasn't led to us feeling any closer to our fellow man. In fact, I think people these days are lonelier, more isolated-feeling, and more aliennated from one another than ever before. I look at this apartment complex of mine, and it sometimes reminds me of a prison. Everybody's got his/her/their own little pod, locked at all times, and, save for going to work (where 99% of us are put into cubicles, mind you), most stay inside, watching TV. (something I'm actually proud of myself for: my TV gets in no channels, and I made it that way on purpose; I'll occasionally watch a DVD using it as my monitor, but there's no channel-surfing for me, and definitely no cable) And if you were to, say, knock on some random person's door and, out of the blue, try to start a conversation with him or her, if for no other reason than to be neighborly, odds are good that you're going to either be suspected of trying to sell something or asked to go the hell away. This wasn't how it used to be. Back when we didn't even have electricity, by god, villages were very much close-knit, with people more or less wandering in and out of each other's hut (or whatever), strangers on long journeys asking if they can sleep in one's house just for the night before pressing on (and being allowed to!) I guess this sort of stuff was allowed because it was so easy to die or get killed in those days. Everyone had to sort of stick together. I'm probably painting with broad brushstrokes here, but I believe there's truth to what I'm saying. I'll admit, though, if it weren't for "progress," I'd have never survived infancy, and most senior citizens who're still alive these days wouldn't back then (I'd be middle-aged at 26 back in, say, the medieval era). And, really, what would life be like if you had to...oh, I don't know...toss around bales of hay all day long just to make it by? Then you come inside after your 15 hour work day is over, maybe read the Bible for a little while, then go to bed and do it all over again. I think the Bible was key, and the reason why these folks didn't go insane given their drudgerous-seeming lives: the zietgeist back then (whatever "back then" means) was that life was something you did while you waited to die and ascend into paradise. Endurance in life. Happiness in Heaven. Thanks to science, that's a little more difficult to swallow these days (although it lingers: studies show that, the more Protestant a country is, the longer its work-week is in terms of hours; countries like Switzerland and Amsterdam, etc., where there's a non-negligable population of atheists and agnostics, have 30-some hour work weeks. I guess that if you don't think you're going to get your reward after you die, you'd might as well enjoy things (as responsibly as is reasonable) while you're alive.