Risk-free relationships

Based on the diagnostic criteria for AvPD it seems the risk of disapproval, criticism, rejection, shame and ridicule prevents avoidants from getting involved with others.

Imagine an intimate long term relationship where an avoidant managed to be themself completely without any negative consequences, In fact the relationship continued to blossom.

1. Would the avoidant eventually come to realise that this particular relationship is literally risk-free?
2. Would the avoidant's behaviour in this relationship eventually become more normal?
3. If you answered yes to 2, if something is still holding the person back from being spotaneously affectionate and intimate do you think they probably don't/can't have AvPD (and more likely schizoid or something)?

There's nothing in the diagnostic critera about what is typical about AvPDs who are in long term intimate relationships. I guess that's because either:
- there's are no tell-tale behavioural signs (they could be anything) or
- AvPDs do not get in long term intimate relationships (although if that were the case, the fact that they don't would be a good diagnostic criterion).

I can't imagine such a relationship. In my experiences, it's possible to be myself for a period of time. But, the risk of disapproval, criticism, rejection, etc. doesn't have to be based on anything real/tangible in the relationship. I think I've managed to go a week... maybe two before I imagined those things and reached the point of no return where I can't be myself again. In that sense, the relationship wasn't risk-free. I was the risk to myself, to both of our happiness. It may vary with others..

I know what you're saying. One of the diagnostic criteria is "is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked," but people usually ignore the last part and assume that avoidants can't have any friends or romantic relationships whatsoever. Actually that criteria fits me to a T because my girlfriend told another friend of mine that she liked me after reading my facebook, and made it really obvious after we met how much she liked me. So that was pretty risk-free for me right from the start.

A risk-free relationship is an appealing idea but I don't think such a relationship exists. I don't have experience with any long-term intimate relationships but I know that I never feel safe around people, even around people whose company I crave. I try to be myself but my guard is never completely down and I'm always looking for signs of disapproval so that I can escape before I get hurt. And that's just how I act with friends. Until a couple years ago I tried to convince myself I was asexual to avoid the risks of intimacy completely. Even the idea of intimacy (emotional even more than physical) frightens me. I know that's messed up, but it's only recently that I've even wanted to change that way of thinking. Unfortunately, the more I try to change that mindset, the more ingrained it becomes... or maybe I'm just becoming more aware of how deep it runs.

aspiedad2112 wrote:3. If you answered yes to 2, if something is still holding the person back from being spotaneously affectionate and intimate do you think they probably don't/can't have AvPD (and more likely schizoid or something)?

Interestingly enough, according to the DSM SPD and AvPD are not mutually exclusive (in fact, it lists AvPD as the most common comorbid personality disorder outside of cluster A for people with SPD).

There are no risk free relationships, except blood relationships are as low risk as you can find. I've given up on finding a romantic relationship. I'm just not willing to wade through the $#%^ and pain that finding someone requires. I have no qualities that women look for, and most women don't live up to my standards. There isn't much point in me bothering anymore. I'm just focusing on minimizing the pain.

1. Would the avoidant eventually come to realise that this particular relationship is literally risk-free?

Marriages sometimes end in divorce after 50 years or more. So how could anyone ever think a relationship was risk-free? If she likes you today that's great but what if she changes her mind?

2. Would the avoidant's behaviour in this relationship eventually become more normal?

Isn't it a characteristic of avpd that they open up a little when they are feeling comfortable around someone? Even if it's not 100% risk-free comfort I dont think the issue is black and white.

3. If you answered yes to 2, if something is still holding the person back from being spotaneously affectionate and intimate do you think they probably don't/can't have AvPD (and more likely schizoid or something)?

Doesn't the schizoid diagnosis mean they don't feel much emotion and just don't care? So I would think that if something was holding you back even though you wanted to get closer to somebody that would still be AvPD, especially since no relationship is risk-free. Even if you know the person likes you right now, that could change tomorrow.

There's nothing in the diagnostic critera about what is typical

My therapist has some strong opinions about the diagnostic criteria, he thinks they are inadequate and incomplete and he says there are many variations, a "textbook case" is just an example for teaching purposes but real people rarely match the textbook example people.

Well that situation is pretty hypothetical. There is always risk. No one is going to put up with literally anything. And anyone who would... well I can't imagine what kind of person that would be.

1) I have been in a relationship, and I felt very comfortable. She was a friend for 9 years. I trusted her more than anything, and I was not self-conscious with her in general. There is no conscious thought process of how much risk there is though. It's not logical. (I didn't see myself as AvPD at the time by the way. I thought I was a normal guy who was shy and not outgoing)

2) My behavior was pretty normal within the relationship. I felt comfortable with her. But that only got me so far. She was a normal person who had needs herself. When I don't meet those needs, she gets upset. It's like a catch-22. You want to be with a person who has needs because you want to be the one to fulfill them. But the fact that they have needs means that there is always the possibility of failing to meet them. Plus, there is life outside of the relationship which does affect the relationship (my interactions with her friends/family, activities that we take part in, etc).

3) I would say that being in a single great relationship is not going to cure AvPD (though I am no expert, and only recently decided that I fit AvPD). It can be a bandaid I guess. Your example is a fantasy however. It's not realistic, there is always risk. You can convince yourself that there is no risk I suppose, but if I had that kind of power over my mind I wouldn't feel like this in the first place.

I will also throw out that, having gotten myself into a close relationship, the end of that relationship is devastating. I was rejected by the one person who knows me inside and out. I can't even bring myself to speak to her anymore.

Harold5 wrote:Well that situation is pretty hypothetical. There is always risk. No one is going to put up with literally anything. And anyone who would... well I can't imagine what kind of person that would be.

3) I would say that being in a single great relationship is not going to cure AvPD (though I am no expert, and only recently decided that I fit AvPD). It can be a bandaid I guess. Your example is a fantasy however. It's not realistic, there is always risk. You can convince yourself that there is no risk I suppose, but if I had that kind of power over my mind I wouldn't feel like this in the first place.

I will also throw out that, having gotten myself into a close relationship, the end of that relationship is devastating. I was rejected by the one person who knows me inside and out. I can't even bring myself to speak to her anymore.

Exactly right. I think most, if not all of us avoidants realize there are no risk free relationships, except possibly blood relatives. And that is why many of us avoid romance, as romance has the highest risk of any relationship.

I was reading over on the NPD forum about "devaluation". Is that something that could work for an avoidant? Basically I guess you make sure you notice all the flaws in the other person and watch for signs that they are going to leave you, and you break up with them away first. It avoids the pain of being rejected and you basically prevent yourself from caring enough to get hurt. Can one PD adopt techniques from others?
Anyway I was thinking it over as a way to get some of the benefits of having relationships with other people while reducing the risk. Actually NPD sounds kind of nice in comparison to just being lonely all the time. If you just love yourself so much and you can charm other people into liking you, well I guess it sounds kind of phony...
Of course this idea doesn't help meet someone in the first place. And I don't have any clue how to love myself.