AvPD vs NPD

Just wondering, what's the difference between AvPD and the shyer "subtypes" of NPD? (NPD has several subtypes with similar internal thought processes, but extremely different outward behavior)

In both cases, there's a preoccupation with self, thinking you're more important that you really are, worrying about what people think of you, when the true answer is probably just "not very often".
Narcissists also feel worthless, the narcissistic tendencies are an attempt to forget and hide that fact.
Some narcissistic people appear extremely extroverted and meet and charm people easily. However the shyer subtypes also feel awkward and avoidant of social situations where the fragile ego might be rejected.

Could an AvPD to have narcissistic fantasies about what they would do if they weren't afraid? Is it possible for a person to be sort of a AvPD/NPD hybrid? By that I mean they are often avoidant, but sometimes in a social situation where they are comfortable or when they know people already like them, they could become "activated" in a sense and start acting very outgoing and narcissistic? Can an AvPD have simultaneous contradictory thoughts of worthlessness and grandeur especially in different realms of life (for example, avoidant of personal relationships, but very outgoing and confident in business relationships)?

Anyway, just wondering because there seems like a lot of potential overlap between AvPD and a shy NPD and I'd like to ferret out the differences. There have been some times in my life where I've felt and acted like the descriptions I've read of AvPD, and other times in my life where I acted more like a typical NPD. I think overall NPD is the better fit but I'd like to know more.

One big difference is that people with NPD generally lack empathy while people with avpd usually have it. I was not aware that nacissists could feel worthless.

Here is the DSM description of NPD:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love (megalomania)
3. Believes they are "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also "special" or of high status
4. Requires excessive admiration
5. Has a sense of entitlement
6. Is interpersonally exploitative
7. Lacks empathy
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Here is avpd:


1. Hypersensitivity to criticism or rejection
2.Self-imposed social isolation
3. Extreme shyness in social situations, though feels a strong desire for close relationships[6]
4.Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
5. Avoids interpersonal relationships
6. Feelings of inadequacy
7. Severe low self-esteem
8. Self loathing
9. Mistrust of others
10. Emotional distancing related to intimacy
11. Highly self-conscious
12. Self-critical about their problems relating to others
13. Problems in occupational functioning
14. Lonely self-perception
15. Feeling inferior to others
16. Utilizes fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts


I have tried to move to NPD as much as I can. I try to lose my empathy. I have managed to lose some. I have tried to feel more sense of self importance. I suppose someone could look at the way I behave and say I'm narc in some ways. I had someone in school say I was stuck up because I didn't talk much. It is a total misinterpetation of things.

I looked it up and see 4 NPD subtypes. None looks like a shyer kind to me:

* Craving narcissists. These are people who feel emotionally needy and undernourished, and may well appear clingy or demanding to those around them.
* Paranoid narcissists. This type of narcissist feels intense contempt for him- or herself, but projects it outward onto others. Paranoid narcissists frequently drive other people away from them by hypercritical and jealous comments and behaviors.
* Manipulative narcissists. These people enjoy "putting something over" on others, obtaining their feelings of superiority by lying to and manipulating them.
* Phallic narcissists. Almost all narcissists in this subgroup are male. They tend to be aggressive, athletic, and exhibitionistic; they enjoy showing off their bodies, clothes, and overall "manliness."

Parador wrote:One big difference is that people with NPD generally lack empathy while people with avpd usually have it. I was not aware that nacissists could feel worthless.

Feeling worthless is actually a fundamental characteristic of narcissism - although in many cases the narcissist has buried that feeling so deep underneath the "false self" that they aren't really consciously aware of feeling that way. Without the underlying feeling of worthlessness there would no motivation to constantly try and prove superiority over others. It's all a sham.

Parador wrote:Here is the DSM description of NPD:

Keep in mind that the DSM is itself kind of subjective, and periodically revised. Also the DSM definition of NPD is 5 out the 9, which means that several of those can be missing in any particular individual.

Parador wrote:I have tried to feel more sense of self importance. I suppose someone could look at the way I behave and say I'm narc in some ways.

Do you ever have the feeling like some kind of switch is flipped, and suddenly you go from feeling worthless to feeling grandiose? It's kind of like putting on a mask and suddenly your whole outlook shifts.
Also, does #16 in AvPD compare to #2 in NPD?

Parador wrote:I looked it up and see 4 NPD subtypes. None looks like a shyer kind to me:

That's not the only axis of subtypes. Look up overt/covert.

Avpd feelings of wothlessness are very close to the surface, not buried. The logical part of my brain knows I'm not wothless, but the emotional part will always feel that way.

Avpd fantasies are an escape from the pain of existance. NPD fantasies about these things because they believe they are entitled. Not many of my fantasies are grandiose.

Do you ever have the feeling like some kind of switch is flipped, and suddenly you go from feeling worthless to feeling grandiose? It's kind of like putting on a mask and suddenly your whole outlook shifts

nope.

Thanks, you've helped me understand the difference.
I may have certain features of AvPD, but it's definitely not the right diagnosis for me.
Overlap between the different PDs is common, since they share similar underlying pathologies.

It's possible to have traits of both disorders...and to have disorders that overlap. It's not always a clear cut thing.

I have Avoidant Personality Disorder. One thing we definitely do is fantasize about the life we wish we had- often it's to an extreme. When I daydream, it's not about being an everyday average person. I daydream about being someone who is loved, adored and envied by everyone. Looking perfect, having the perfect relationship, with an amazing job where I'm extremely successful etc. Because we are so socially screwed up and isolated/alone....we try to make up for it by escaping into daydreams, where we're living the exact opposite life from what we actually have. NP's try to act out their fantasy's to convince others that is who they really are. AVP's only think about how they want to be, but never pretend to be that way. There are some similarities with NPD and AVPD. Both are very insecure, both long for perfection & have unrealistic standards, both desire to be liked by everyone, and both care far too much about what others think of them. However, the differences are apparent.

NP's have a tendency to put others down so they'll look good. They over exaggerate their accomplishments, and flaunt things in order to get positive attention. Total opposite from how an avoidant acts. We try to be invisible because we DON'T want to draw attention to ourselves. We need constant compliments but not because we feel we deserve them like people with NPD do. We just take everything short of constant compliments as being hurtful or being disliked/judged. Years ago in high school I lost a lot of weight after summer and everyone kept telling me that I looked great. After they got used to seeing me every day, the compliments stopped. That actually hurt me, because I was convinced I just didn't look as good as I did a few weeks earlier. Everything is twisted into thinking people are rejecting you.

As for the question about if it's possible for AVP's to be comfortable around some groups and become narcissistic around others...I'm no expert, but if you're someone with AVPD I'd doubt it. It may happen to someone who has overlapping disorders, and the NPD comes out more at certain moments. But having clear cut Avoidant Personality Disorder means you don't know how to socialize with people. You can probably spot us in social settings. I myself look like an awkward, "out of it" weirdo in public. I try so hard to blend in and appear normal, that it actually draws MORE attention to me because I look suspicious and odd. Once someone thought I was trying to steal something because I "looked like I was up to something."

So basically this was pretty long but I tried to explain in more detail about Avoidant Personality Disorder. It's possible to have traits of both. I'm not sure if it's possible to be diagnosed with both though, because the behaviors of these disorders are polar opposites.

Is it wrong that I have no sympathy for anybody with NPD?

This comes from the experiance I had last year while traveling with somebody who I now feel, was a total narcissist.

He turned what was supposed to be a very enjoyable time into a rather unpleaset experiance with his constant moaning, arguing, shouting at officials (border guards ), bullying, selfishness, vanity, short temper, inabillity to compromise, quite obivious low self esteem and hughly inflated sense of self importance.

Overall this man was a total cock and if I never see him again it'll be too soon.
I don't care if he's mentally ill, or has a PD or whatever. The kind of behiviour he exhibited was inapproate at best, and at worst was down right unacceptable uncalled for and actually almost implauseable in the circumstances.

I mean would you start shouting at a border guard, just because he's not letting the line move quickly enough?
Bearing in mind this guard could easily tell you to ###$ off. Deny you entry to the country and then you'd be unable to go back as you don't have a valid visa to be able to re-enter the country you just left?

No. I don't think NPD can cross over with AvPD.

I have tons of experiece with NPDs. My best friend when I was locked up in the psych hospital was a guy with NPD. He was the only other guy on the ward who had his head together in any way. He was really bored and looking for someone to play cards with and then I came along. He saw that I had my head right so we used to hang out. I showed him some things about chess and he showed me how to shoot pool. But I was a WAY better chess player and he was a WAY better pool player so we played cards. The reason our relationship worked was only because we were locked up together. He used to say he would spike my drink with drugs just for a laugh. I believed him. I never would have hung out with him on the outside.

I supervise someone at work who certainly has NPD. It can be really draining. He is always thinking he is being persecuted. He used to go around saying "there's boys, there's men and then there's ME." He wasn't joking. He thinks he's some kind of super-human. I have lots of experience dealing with NPD as well as BPD being in a psych hospital. I have gotten used to it. It's not that I don't mind. I just see it as another part of my unpleasant job.

To complicate things further, there's narcissist called a "shy narcissist or closet narcissist", who sometimes are misdiagnosed as Schizoid.

this is what I read about it:

The shy narcissist
Some specialists have described individuals diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder as "shy narcissists," "closet narcissists" or "deflated narcissists."

These individuals, like others with narcissistic personality disorder, have a grandiose, unrealistic sense of their abilities, achievements and worth, and they often feel disdain for others whom they perceive as less exceptional. They also have vulnerable self-esteems and are very sensitive to criticism. However, these individuals don't seek admiration or overtly express their sense of superiority.

More research is needed to determine whether "shy narcissism" is indeed a subtype of narcissistic personality disorder.

I've never known anyone like that. I don't often get to know people too well though. I guess it's possible that there are people like that.