i have been defeated

I find it disheartening to see normal people navigate social situations with such thoughtless ease. They think nothing of it, while something as simple as a telephone call will have me panicking for hours until I work up the courage to go through with it... if I ever do. But we're not so different. We all share the same, fundamental needs. The most charismatic and the most socially isolated alike all require food, shelter, warmth, purpose and love. And yet, they use what we lack to coast through life without so much as think about the things that challenge us most.

This bothers me a lot too. But then I cant help but think – if they have the ability to do this then it was meant to be, and they deserve it. And I have spent a lot of time thinking about why people like me exist at all. What is the point, biologically speaking, to have such a useless creature on the planet? I can barely function and I wont ever procreate so whats the point.

I used to think the point of this, of AvPD, was to beat it. I looked at it like another form of mental disease, something I could simply get over, but I don't think that anymore. Now, I see that mentality as the equivalent of being thrown into an arctic survival situation and deciding that the only logical course of action is to make the sun hotter. I just don't think its possible. To me, AvPD has become more like another aspect of my environment than a simple obstacle. To me, it's not so much a personality disorder as it is my actual personality. As such, I think the point is to find a way of living with it, of accommodating it, rather than in spite of it.

Part of my obstacle is I believe that although I totally have all the traits of an AvPD person, I truly believe that I am in fact inferior and I will never be able to connect with anyone else because I am not ‘meant’ to. I know it may sound a bit pathological, but I do believe that I am being punished by someone or something. I really am not religious, but I still feel as though there is some form of power that is punishing me. My main problem is the meaningless of my life. Why exist just to exist?

And that's what it's all about, improvisation. I'm starting to think of normal people like they don't need knives. Maybe they have sharp claws or something. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. I'm at a serious disadvantage, here. These people go around climbing trees, fighting predators and generally doing everything without any trouble, and it's all because of those claws. Simply put, I'm inferior. I don't even compare. So, I can either be complacent just barely getting along in life... or I can make myself a knife and show those clawed sons of bitches what for.

I know I am inferior, and I know my life is meaningless. In regards to my life, why exist just to exist? In you analogy I was born without claws too. But I see it as a major fault, and getting thru life with a knife, (at least for me), is cheating. I know that I don’t have claws and I can only see myself as someone that was never meant to be alive in the first place. I don’t measure up and I don’t belong here. If I had something to hold on to, like a real talent for something, then at least I could find solace in it.

I know this is getting weird, and I apologize, but my brain puts things together in bizarre ways and I tend to just go with it. Anyway, that's what you need to do. You need to make yourself a knife. I need to make myself one, too. Think of tools and techniques that keep you alive and sane, and think of some that can improve your life. Here's one thing I do, or don't do. I usually don't look people in the eye. That's something that keeps me alive. Sure, doing this won't make anyone view me as an alpha-male or anything, but I'm fine with that if it keeps me alive. I'm also more confident, for whatever reason, when people can't see my face. So, I wear dark lenses in my glasses, and that's actually doubly useful since it renders the issue of eye contact irrelevant. And any time its cold enough to reasonably wear one, I put on my balaclava, which is like a hat for your head and face. This way, people are severely limited in what body language of mine they can perceive, putting me at a significant advantage over them. People don't view these things as strange, and they increase my ability to function by a significant amount. Another thing I do is make use of indirect forms of communication. These days, most people have an email address. When I have trouble speaking to most people directly, why should I communicate any other way? Now, I know these are stupid, trivial examples. I just want to get you thinking about this stuff.

I don’t look people in the eye either and I walk with my head down. Considering my issues, I have been quite successful in getting by so far.

The point is, we all have severe limitations placed on us, and some of us have more limitations than others. Human beings can't expect to dive off cliffs and magically be able to fly, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of flight. Likewise, you and I can't just go out one day and expect to feel at ease in a social environment. And again, that doesn't mean we're not capable of doing so. It only means we're incapable of doing so without careful thought and ingenuity.

Also, it's probably a bit disjointed throwing this in right here, but I think its great that you have a stable, comfortable life. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Hell, we all take things for granted. It's not a big deal. The people who want you to feel miserable about living comfortably are the ones who would prefer it if you and everyone you know were to be sterilized and forced into crippling poverty to eke out a grim existence using bronze age technology. Don't let those people get to you, and don't ever succumb to that kind of thinking. Be thankful for what you've got, but don't let it cloud your mind. You have more important things to think about, like what you actually want from your life.

I am predisposed to feeling guilty about everything (especially anything that makes me happy). I know I shouldn’t feel so bad for having good things in my life, but I just know that there are so many more deserving people. I tend to think this way too much – who deserves what in the world. I have a good friend that lives way below the poverty line. She deserves a nice home more than I do. This is the way I see things.

And that's it. You don't have to respond to all of this. You don't have to respond to any of it. It would be rude of me to expect that. I just don't want you to underestimate yourself. You're a human being. Your brain is the most complicated piece of biological equipment in known existence, and with it, you've come to dominate this planet in just a hundred thousand years or so. You used to hunt wooly mammoths with nothing more than spears and wit. You've split atoms. I know you don't want to set yourself up for disappointment, but there's no reason to resign yourself to a bland existence of drug addled, hopeless numbness, either. I'll be damned if you can't find a way to live a fuller life.

I should really think of life as a gift but I don’t. It’s more like a trial. A full life is not going to happen – but one with a minimal amount of pain is achievable. I know I should not be so defeatist, but eventually a person gets to a point where everything is all about odds and probability. It’s unlikely that X will happen, so I will accept Y because I can at least survive in an acceptable manner. Once you get to this point, you see that a bland existence is not so bad. I am not a risk taker, and the chances of things getting worse for me if I make an effort to change the circumstances of my life is just too much of a risk.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me. I really do appreciate the thought you have put into your post.

Parador wrote:Maybe you'll feel better when yoiu get to 1000 posts like me. ooo - now I'm at 1010. Can't wait for 1111!

I will celebrate when i reach 666.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

I find it disheartening to see normal people navigate social situations with such thoughtless ease. They think nothing of it, while something as simple as a telephone call will have me panicking for hours until I work up the courage to go through with it... if I ever do. But we're not so different. We all share the same, fundamental needs. The most charismatic and the most socially isolated alike all require food, shelter, warmth, purpose and love. And yet, they use what we lack to coast through life without so much as think about the things that challenge us most.

This bothers me a lot too. But then I cant help but think – if they have the ability to do this then it was meant to be, and they deserve it. And I have spent a lot of time thinking about why people like me exist at all. What is the point, biologically speaking, to have such a useless creature on the planet? I can barely function and I wont ever procreate so whats the point.

Well, there's isn't a point; not for me, not for you and not for the most perfect, beautiful and successful people you can imagine. We suffer and struggle vainly. From an evolutionary standpoint, there isn't any ultimate goal. There's no such thing as a set order. Things replicate, and with every replication there is mutation. If a mutation is beneficial for a given organism in its respective environment, it's more likely to be passed on to future generations. If not, it is less likely to be passed on. That's it. There's no success or failure, regardless of what happens.

Dinosauria, it can be argued, is one of the most "successful" animal Superorders in the history of the Earth... but they're all dead. We do have birds, now, but Dinosauria still seems pretty well useless to me if it couldn't live through a stupid comet. We all die and we're all forgotten. The people you feel you are inferior to are no less pointless than you or I. They're all fated the same. Someone could bring about a new golden age for humanity, sire millions of children and discover the secret of immortality, and they would still inevitably die and be forgotten. There's no point, and no one ever wins.

No matter how useless you see yourself as being, you really aren't any different than the people you feel so inferior to in comparison.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

I used to think the point of this, of AvPD, was to beat it. I looked at it like another form of mental disease, something I could simply get over, but I don't think that anymore. Now, I see that mentality as the equivalent of being thrown into an arctic survival situation and deciding that the only logical course of action is to make the sun hotter. I just don't think its possible. To me, AvPD has become more like another aspect of my environment than a simple obstacle. To me, it's not so much a personality disorder as it is my actual personality. As such, I think the point is to find a way of living with it, of accommodating it, rather than in spite of it.

Part of my obstacle is I believe that although I totally have all the traits of an AvPD person, I truly believe that I am in fact inferior and I will never be able to connect with anyone else because I am not ‘meant’ to. I know it may sound a bit pathological, but I do believe that I am being punished by someone or something. I really am not religious, but I still feel as though there is some form of power that is punishing me. My main problem is the meaningless of my life. Why exist just to exist?

Human beings are subjective animals, first and foremost. The existence of disorders like this should be testament enough to that. You feel that you're genuinely inferior, but it's all subjective. We're all inferior by some standard. None of us lives to anything even nearing our potential, and no matter what we do, according to someone, every one of us is wasting our time and our lives. Who we are, what we are and what we are doing is all relative.

When you say you will never be able to connect with anyone because you aren't meant to by some higher power, I'm reminded of religious groups that refuse medical treatment for potentially terminal ailments because they feel it is a sign that their god is willing them to die. Even when there is treatment available that could, without a doubt, cure them entirely, they refuse because their conviction is so strong.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

And that's what it's all about, improvisation. I'm starting to think of normal people like they don't need knives. Maybe they have sharp claws or something. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. I'm at a serious disadvantage, here. These people go around climbing trees, fighting predators and generally doing everything without any trouble, and it's all because of those claws. Simply put, I'm inferior. I don't even compare. So, I can either be complacent just barely getting along in life... or I can make myself a knife and show those clawed sons of bitches what for.

I know I am inferior, and I know my life is meaningless. In regards to my life, why exist just to exist? In you analogy I was born without claws too. But I see it as a major fault, and getting thru life with a knife, (at least for me), is cheating. I know that I don’t have claws and I can only see myself as someone that was never meant to be alive in the first place. I don’t measure up and I don’t belong here. If I had something to hold on to, like a real talent for something, then at least I could find solace in it.

Why exist to just exist? Well, why not? If there's a reason, if there's a purpose, no one can ever know it. As far as our understanding can go, it's all a blank slate. We write our own meaning into it. I don't know if there's a reason, but things still exist. Everything still exists. Life goes on. Does there need to be any more reason?

You have every right to make a good life for yourself. You can't think of that as cheating. In life, there aren't any optional rules. You're either compelled to obey them, like the laws of physics, or they're subjective and arbitrary, like speed limits. You can't cheat physics, and man's laws can't be cheated because man's laws don't matter. You need to progress in your way of thinking. I don't mean to be offensive, but you really sound like a Luddite.

Humanity pushes science and technology to improve its existence; to make living easier for everyone, no exceptions, and to allow people the chance to invest their energies in ways that will push humanity even further ahead. Now, ask yourself, are people with asthma cheating when they use inhalers to survive asthma attacks? Do the mute cheat when they use sign language to communicate? Is it unfair that we aren't all living naked in filthy caves, eating pond scum and inevitably dying before we even turn 25? Of course not, and using everything at your disposal to accommodate for your disorder isn't cheating either.

And I think you'd be better off finding solace in the simple fact that you exist at all. If you take the time to think about it, if you consider all the infinite things that have been necessarily brought into place to make you and me and everyone else what we are, you'll see that calling the odds astronomical would be the understatement of all understatements. Why do you feel you need an amazing talent, anyway? What's wrong with just enjoying what you have?

There's no shame at all in a simple life. Just because you think you don't do anything important, doesn't mean you really don't. Every day you go out to work, you contribute value to your society. Even if all you're doing is cleaning toilets or filing papers, if your employer thinks it's in his best interest to keep paying you, you're creating wealth every moment you do your job. And the time and effort you invest in that job, no matter how pointless you think it is, allows other people in other places to invest more of their time on other jobs, and someone, somewhere along the line is being freed up to do something amazing.

Maybe you want to be that person. Maybe that's what you mean by having a talent to hold on to. Sometimes I want to be that person as well, but I don't think it really matters. We don't matter, and they don't matter, either, because it works in everyone's favor.

One person I admire is Isaac Newton. He invented Calculus on one of his summer vacations. I'm not even kidding. I mean, how impressive is that? I'm not a huge fan of myself, but I still don't want to be Newton, because the things he did have come to benefit everyone. It doesn't matter that he was the one to do them, so long as they're done, and without him, they would have been done sooner or later, anyway. Also, he's dead, and I like being alive.

You have to look at it all from the outside. Think of Michael Jordon. Historically, he's one of the greatest basketball players ever and a hero to many, many people. And yet, he's still just another person. He's only different in that he was better than most people at bouncing a ball and throwing it into a hoop. Sounds unimpressive, right? Exactly.

If you ask anyone who isn't an insect enthusiast or an Entomologist whether they prefer red ants or black ants, they'll give you a puzzled look and tell you they're all just ants. And that's absolutely true. The smartest ant is still just an ant. The strongest ant is still just an ant. Et cetera... I mean, does the cheetah make a running horse seem any less impressive? And they're both just animals, anyway.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

I know this is getting weird, and I apologize, but my brain puts things together in bizarre ways and I tend to just go with it. Anyway, that's what you need to do. You need to make yourself a knife. I need to make myself one, too. Think of tools and techniques that keep you alive and sane, and think of some that can improve your life. Here's one thing I do, or don't do. I usually don't look people in the eye. That's something that keeps me alive. Sure, doing this won't make anyone view me as an alpha-male or anything, but I'm fine with that if it keeps me alive. I'm also more confident, for whatever reason, when people can't see my face. So, I wear dark lenses in my glasses, and that's actually doubly useful since it renders the issue of eye contact irrelevant. And any time its cold enough to reasonably wear one, I put on my balaclava, which is like a hat for your head and face. This way, people are severely limited in what body language of mine they can perceive, putting me at a significant advantage over them. People don't view these things as strange, and they increase my ability to function by a significant amount. Another thing I do is make use of indirect forms of communication. These days, most people have an email address. When I have trouble speaking to most people directly, why should I communicate any other way? Now, I know these are stupid, trivial examples. I just want to get you thinking about this stuff.

I don’t look people in the eye either and I walk with my head down. Considering my issues, I have been quite successful in getting by so far.

And there's nothing at all wrong with that. It's just something you do to make your life easier. That's all you have to think of it as.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

The point is, we all have severe limitations placed on us, and some of us have more limitations than others. Human beings can't expect to dive off cliffs and magically be able to fly, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of flight. Likewise, you and I can't just go out one day and expect to feel at ease in a social environment. And again, that doesn't mean we're not capable of doing so. It only means we're incapable of doing so without careful thought and ingenuity.

Also, it's probably a bit disjointed throwing this in right here, but I think its great that you have a stable, comfortable life. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Hell, we all take things for granted. It's not a big deal. The people who want you to feel miserable about living comfortably are the ones who would prefer it if you and everyone you know were to be sterilized and forced into crippling poverty to eke out a grim existence using bronze age technology. Don't let those people get to you, and don't ever succumb to that kind of thinking. Be thankful for what you've got, but don't let it cloud your mind. You have more important things to think about, like what you actually want from your life.

I am predisposed to feeling guilty about everything (especially anything that makes me happy). I know I shouldn’t feel so bad for having good things in my life, but I just know that there are so many more deserving people. I tend to think this way too much – who deserves what in the world. I have a good friend that lives way below the poverty line. She deserves a nice home more than I do. This is the way I see things.

I don't really know what to tell you about guilt. I have the same problem, and it's come to the point where I've rid myself of so many possessions that I can fit almost everything I own into a single box... so I don't think I have the right to say anything. I don't know, but the guilt can't be good for anyone. It can't be healthy to worry so much about things beyond our control.

Jessica's Hope wrote:

And that's it. You don't have to respond to all of this. You don't have to respond to any of it. It would be rude of me to expect that. I just don't want you to underestimate yourself. You're a human being. Your brain is the most complicated piece of biological equipment in known existence, and with it, you've come to dominate this planet in just a hundred thousand years or so. You used to hunt wooly mammoths with nothing more than spears and wit. You've split atoms. I know you don't want to set yourself up for disappointment, but there's no reason to resign yourself to a bland existence of drug addled, hopeless numbness, either. I'll be damned if you can't find a way to live a fuller life.

I should really think of life as a gift but I don’t. It’s more like a trial. A full life is not going to happen – but one with a minimal amount of pain is achievable. I know I should not be so defeatist, but eventually a person gets to a point where everything is all about odds and probability. It’s unlikely that X will happen, so I will accept Y because I can at least survive in an acceptable manner. Once you get to this point, you see that a bland existence is not so bad. I am not a risk taker, and the chances of things getting worse for me if I make an effort to change the circumstances of my life is just too much of a risk.

I know how you feel. There's so much, and so little we can do. From where you stand, I can't blame you for the way you feel, but with your basic needs so well taken care of, and with everything that is available to us in the modern day, I don't think what you want is at all as unachievable as you think it is. I'm sorry I can't help you see that.

Okay, I don't know what I've been thinking over the past few days. I just looked through this again, and I think I'm totally out of line, here. Considering where I'm at in my life, I have no place trying to give anyone any kind advice. This isn't any of my business, and I need to back off.

I apologise.

Nightspore wrote:Okay, I don't know what I've been thinking over the past few days. I just looked through this again, and I think I'm totally out of line, here. Considering where I'm at in my life, I have no place trying to give anyone any kind advice. This isn't any of my business, and I need to back off.

I apologise.

Yo, Nightspore, don't think this way. If you have experiences to share then you can be of great benefit to us here. We all need to relate to people and I'm sure that many people can relate to your stories/history. We are all worth something to someone.

Okay, I don't know what I've been thinking over the past few days. I just looked through this again, and I think I'm totally out of line, here. Considering where I'm at in my life, I have no place trying to give anyone any kind advice. This isn't any of my business, and I need to back off.

I apologise.

Don’t apologize – you haven’t said anything wrong. You are just expressing how you feel and I think its good to have multiple ways of seeing the world.

Well, there's isn't a point; not for me, not for you and not for the most perfect, beautiful and successful people you can imagine. We suffer and struggle vainly. From an evolutionary standpoint, there isn't any ultimate goal. There's no such thing as a set order. Things replicate, and with every replication there is mutation. If a mutation is beneficial for a given organism in its respective environment, it's more likely to be passed on to future generations. If not, it is less likely to be passed on. That's it. There's no success or failure, regardless of what happens.


No matter how useless you see yourself as being, you really aren't any different than the people you feel so inferior to in comparison.

This has always been an issue for me. I try to see things objectively and I know that I have just as much right to exist as everyone else, but the feelings of inferiority have always been with me, ever since I was a child.

When you say you will never be able to connect with anyone because you aren't meant to by some higher power, I'm reminded of religious groups that refuse medical treatment for potentially terminal ailments because they feel it is a sign that their god is willing them to die. Even when there is treatment available that could, without a doubt, cure them entirely, they refuse because their conviction is so strong.

I totally know that this is a very skewed way to see things, and it makes no sense. Maybe on some level I am using the ‘cursed by a higher power’ idea to allow myself to justify my hopeless and defeatist attitude.

Why exist to just exist? Well, why not? If there's a reason, if there's a purpose, no one can ever know it. As far as our understanding can go, it's all a blank slate. We write our own meaning into it. I don't know if there's a reason, but things still exist. Everything still exists. Life goes on. Does there need to be any more reason?

You have every right to make a good life for yourself. You can't think of that as cheating. In life, there aren't any optional rules. You're either compelled to obey them, like the laws of physics, or they're subjective and arbitrary, like speed limits. You can't cheat physics, and man's laws can't be cheated because man's laws don't matter. You need to progress in your way of thinking. I don't mean to be offensive, but you really sound like a Luddite.

Well, I can barely tolerate my computer now that I have Vista, so I guess I do have some luddite in me. But, I understand what you are trying to say.

And I think you'd be better off finding solace in the simple fact that you exist at all. If you take the time to think about it, if you consider all the infinite things that have been necessarily brought into place to make you and me and everyone else what we are, you'll see that calling the odds astronomical would be the understatement of all understatements. Why do you feel you need an amazing talent, anyway? What's wrong with just enjoying what you have?

I don’t need to be so talented that I can feel superior to others – that’s just not me. But, it would be nice to have something that I could be proud of. It would just be for myself, I wouldn’t have to share it with the world.

There's no shame at all in a simple life. Just because you think you don't do anything important, doesn't mean you really don't. Every day you go out to work, you contribute value to your society. Even if all you're doing is cleaning toilets or filing papers, if your employer thinks it's in his best interest to keep paying you, you're creating wealth every moment you do your job. And the time and effort you invest in that job, no matter how pointless you think it is, allows other people in other places to invest more of their time on other jobs, and someone, somewhere along the line is being freed up to do something amazing.

Maybe you want to be that person. Maybe that's what you mean by having a talent to hold on to. Sometimes I want to be that person as well, but I don't think it really matters. We don't matter, and they don't matter, either, because it works in everyone's favor.

You are right – there is no shame in a simple life. I don’t need or want to be an important person to the world. I do not need to be better than anyone else. But I do want to be important to someone one day – someone that I care about and respect.

You have to look at it all from the outside. Think of Michael Jordon. Historically, he's one of the greatest basketball players ever and a hero to many, many people. And yet, he's still just another person. He's only different in that he was better than most people at bouncing a ball and throwing it into a hoop. Sounds unimpressive, right? Exactly.

I don’t really know much about sports and such but I remember reading somewhere that he really wanted to play baseball and he eventually did get to play with a team but he was not a star player like he was in basketball. So, even the greats aren’t perfect.

I know how you feel. There's so much, and so little we can do. From where you stand, I can't blame you for the way you feel, but with your basic needs so well taken care of, and with everything that is available to us in the modern day, I don't think what you want is at all as unachievable as you think it is. I'm sorry I can't help you see that.

Maybe because I am older now, but things seem so much more hopeless and impossible. And it is a real problem for me because maybe I do not take advantage of situations that could potentially make me happy; all for fear of yet another disappointment.