Perfectionism as a cause of AvPD

That unless the root problem is addressed, changing thought patterns might work for a while, but with the root still unaddressed, the same problems will come up again. Is that what you are saying

yes. exactly.

If I'm on the right track, I think I agree with you. In some ways, I dislike how doctors so readily prescribe medication for depression or anxiety, but may do little to address the problems that may be causing the depression/anxiety.

I agree. I have seen this happen quite a few times and I have to say it doesnt seem to help people in the long term. I dont think I am in a desperate enough place to need medication at the moment so its difficult to really pass judgement but I dont like the idea of being dependent on them for stability in my life.

Situations/experiences are not the cause of <insert personality disorder or behavioral dysfunction here>; the irrational beliefs that is our reaction to the experience is the problem.

I understand what you are saying. I guess i am just asking why these irrational beliefs continue to exist in people for so long if they cause such anguish? Something surely must be feeding them still. I dont think conditioned responses such as an irrational thought, are permanent unless they continue to be triggered by something.

If you have found success. I am glad. I think I will investigate REBT myself because I am happy to be proved wrong if it makes me feel better.

cheers!

Does anyone get angry after discovery flaws in someone else's way of life?

That's what I do for some reason. I analyze someone and get angry because they're living up to my perfectionist view, way of life. I know it's very arrogant of me to do so. I'll just see some girl walking down the street and despise them because of the way they dress like ugg boots and designer glasses.

You can't "rewire" your own brain. I've tried. It's like trying to drive a nail into the handle of a hammer--the same hammer you must use to hit the nail!

What you can do, however, is get out and put yourself into more situations where there is a high likelihood of other hammers just happening to be around.

As for the perfectionism, I believe it DEFINITELY plays an integral part in the disorder. Whether it's a cause, an effect, or the same thing from a different vantage point, I don't know for sure. All I know is that it's part of the cycle.

Mine got so bad that eventually I began letting myself fail regularly, in an attempt to get over the fear of failure and "break through to the other side" of the perfectionism. While I can't say it didn't help at all, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone either, especially if they aspire to enter a competitive university.

What I did learn, though, was how to forgive myself for my mistakes. I mean, I screwed up royally, especially in the relationship arena. I really hurt some feelings, even though at the time I was convinced I was doing the right thing. But I was able to forgive myself because I realized that A: I never harmed anyone on purpose; B: The main reason for my mistakes was simple ignorance of social matters, the blame for which I could share with my parents for their emotional neglect; and C: Once I realized a mistake I never repeated it.

True, rewiring is impossible.
But there must be some way to live with it comfortably. There are plenty of ultra perfectionists who don't have AvPD.

Rewiring is not impossible, its just that thing people are mistakenly expecting to happen overnight, when they are thinking "some day everything is going to click inside of me and i am going to break out of this". For the majority, ok, it may never happen, but for other people they just change.

Age is a big factor, young people can 'rewire' more easily.

MrBrightside wrote:Rewiring is not impossible, its just that thing people are mistakenly expecting to happen overnight, when they are thinking "some day everything is going to click inside of me and i am going to break out of this". For the majority, ok, it may never happen, but for other people they just change.

Age is a big factor, young people can 'rewire' more easily.

Rewiring is not only possible but true in every way you put it. Our brain cells are constantly creating new connections between them. Many thousand every mili-seconds. This is true, a fact. It is the way you are able to learn new things and formulate a theoretical response to any real problem.

Our brain is thousands of nerves connecting through electric impulses.

Now, depending on what we are doing and our age our "plasticity" varies.
Watching tv stimulates your brain less than when you are sleeping. Reading a book is to the brain what swimming is to the body, the most complete activity you can perform. Why? Because reading requires visual decyphration of the words, which have to be put together and find it's meaning and because it works a lot with both the long term and short term memory.

Once saw a documentary showing the connections of a baby comparing to an adult....yes, the baby rewires million times faster, but that's necessary because they don't know how to anything aside some basic instints.
The brain of a 60 year old isn't necessarily less fast or even less plastic than a 30 year old. The truth is that as long as you keep using your brain, your brain will continue to function. Many old people keep extremely working active brains.

The brain could probably outlive a body many times.

It is by far the most fascinating part of our body.

The problem with ocd is that it is a physical problem(chemical unbalance I think) and not psychological. So rewiring in this case may not be possible or necessary. To rationally dismiss the toughts or the compulsion...that's all that can be done. But that doesn't last.

Rewiring is not only possible but true in every way you put it. Our brain cells are constantly creating new connections between them. Many thousand every mili-seconds. This is true, a fact. It is the way you are able to learn new things and formulate a theoretical response to any real problem.

Im not saying its not possible. Brains are clearly dynamic things but there are very well worn pathways that become difficult to change because they either bring true pleasure to the 'landlord' and benefit the environment he or she lives in - in which case its not a problem, or they are cleverly disguised, perhaps very old, formulated ways of avoiding some kind of pain - either real or imagined.

'Rewiring' is only the physical aspect of the process. Maybe its an attractive notion because in this technological world, which seems so governed by logical ideas and fixed destiny, if a program has a bug - you debug it! Simple. In the context of human beings which are far more complex organisms though, it seems almost irrelevant. We simply dont have access to the 'wires' and even if we did, it would release all kinds of ethical dilemmas. We only have access to our conscious thoughts and feelings. I strongly believe the idea of 'rewiring' doesnt take into account your individual experiences or feelings or the rights of your unconscious. In short, it doesnt respect the problem - and this is absolutely vital in my opinion, otherwise you are destined to endlessly fight an invisible spirit, completely unaware of its strength and completely oblivious to the realization that its strength is actually your own!

"If we dont learn from our mistakes we are doomed to repeat them". I think its an essential mantra for people in anguish who seem to perpetually inflict psychological harm on themselves. Observe closely the thoughts and behaviours that cause problems. Learn their language and analyse them - find out what they are trying to tell you - or maybe what they are trying to protect you from. I really dont think there are any short cuts.

Jonathon wrote:In the context of human beings which are far more complex organisms though, it seems almost irrelevant. We simply dont have access to the 'wires' and even if we did, it would release all kinds of ethical dilemmas. We only have access to our conscious thoughts and feelings. I strongly believe the idea of 'rewiring' doesnt take into account your individual experiences or feelings or the rights of your unconscious. In short, it doesnt respect the problem [...]I really dont think there are any short cuts.

AH! Great!

You see, I was only pointing out that it is phisically possible to rewire the brain and that we, everything we are and the way we perceive things, can be changed.

Of course there are no shortcuts. Drugs for instance cannot change anything. They can only, in their best, bring some confort, in order for you to live experiences that will allow to change.

To me right know the way to a better life is change and taking chances. Not just learning to take chances, but actually doing it.
If the problem is in the way we perceive others, be it through generalizations or applying past experiences to try and guess the outcome of the future, than what we(I) must do is to try to learn different ways of perceiving it.

That of course is my view on the subject. It probably won't help anyone else. Everyone has to get to know exactly what can trigger change for them, try to find the thoughts that will allow them to not be anxious.

I'm not saying I've succeded. I am yet to be a success story, but I am starting to feel better about myself and my situation. I am rewiring my view on life and others. I no longer spend time away from my troubles for a while and then come to think of them in despair. I now think of them throughout my day and am able to not feel desperate.
The thought of change is what is helping me cope with my situation.

If that's rewiring or not, I guess it's just semantics.

Back on topic, I don't feel that perfectionism is a characteristic of mine. I do have, what I think is a normal trait of avpd, which is idealism.
I think and obsess about ideal life and ideal relationships and ideal solutions for problems.
I am in no way a perfeccionism neither have I ever been a perfeccionist. I merely idealize perfect conditions and only demand as much of myself as I believe to be necessary.

I understand why you would use the word perfeccionism...because we strive for and imagine certain things certain ways...like the perfect date or the great never disturbed friendship. But those are more like ideals that I, because of avpd, take as my goals.

I don't believe that other people are perfect, I simply have an extremily low self-esteem and feel unworthy or/and inferior of the others. It's not that their perfect and I have to match up, it's that I'm beneath and can't step up.

IMO and in my case, Trence has hit the nail on the head with this one. If it's not perfect, it's not worth it - it's painful, actually. And this is the kind of thing that really works unconsciously, in the background.

I'm glad Trence and Sakamoto, at least, have had some success with therapy and changing one's thoughts processes. I have yet to find a way that works for me. I am (was) seeing a therapist, to no avail - couldn't even get out of the house. And my 6th one at that, too...

But I have one question... I know that this isn't the case for all Avoidants, but we all share some 'symptoms'... Irrational thoughts, cognitive distortions... perfectionism. I see myself in so many posts.

Why does this happen? What are the chances that a small number of avoidants have exactly the same issues, and in many cases for the same reasons? I ask this because I'm heavily tending towards the "chemical imbalance" theory right now...

It's like Jonathon said, when I think 'it's all in my mind' I feel even worse. Because theoretically I could have gotten better but instead I just suffer "because I'm lazy"? In a sense hoping for a miracle drug (that in all likelihood does not exist) at least takes away the guilt of my being like this.

I understand what you are saying. I guess i am just asking why these irrational beliefs continue to exist in people for so long if they cause such anguish? Something surely must be feeding them still. I dont think conditioned responses such as an irrational thought, are permanent unless they continue to be triggered by something.

I believe this as well. Why do I hide, why do I not socialize, why do I feel bad all the time? I'm miserable, and still I know it could be worse, because I've been there (albeit the reasons why are probably buried in my mind at this point). I actually think that being Avoidant is like a defense mechanism, it protects me from some other terrible and far worse feeling, if that makes any sense.

IMO and in my case, Trence has hit the nail on the head with this one. If it's not perfect, it's not worth it - it's painful, actually. And this is the kind of thing that really works unconsciously, in the background.

I definitely take things more personally than I should. I take a ridiculous amount of pride in my work because I guess its like its a substitute for my being out in the world. Its painful for me too because if I'm not seen as perfect in some way, its almost unbearable. I think its a kind of longing for unconditional love - what's more perfect than unconditional love?

Why does this happen? What are the chances that a small number of avoidants have exactly the same issues, and in many cases for the same reasons? I ask this because I'm heavily tending towards the "chemical imbalance" theory right now...

I guess it cant be ruled out but I think ultimately people are people. We all essentially share the same biological make up so its not unreasonable to assume that, given similar circumstances, we will react in a similar way. I guess there are certain cognitive potentials that can be activated under certain conditions and depending on our predispositions - genetic or chemical or otherwise, we choose one or the other. Do we stay and fight or do we run away? If we were predisposed to externalising feelings and expressing ourselves physically there is more chance we would stay and fight. If we were more predisposed to keeping things inside we would run away.

theoretically I could have gotten better but instead I just suffer "because I'm lazy"? In a sense hoping for a miracle drug (that in all likelihood does not exist) at least takes away the guilt of my being like this.

Absolutely I have the same feeling here. That word "Lazy" haunts me. I feel like Im accused of it all the time. I accuse myself of it. It seems like a way of refusing to believe there is anything wrong. I often feel I am wasting my therapist's time because all I need to do is 'get on with it'. I actually dont know if there is any such thing as 'lazy' now. If someone doesnt want to do something, there is a reason. You cant feel guilty about having difficulty with certain things - if others cant accept that some people struggle with their life, they could just as easily be accused of being lazy. Life is not meant to be such a difficult process - if it was we would have all died out long ago.

I actually think that being Avoidant is like a defense mechanism, it protects me from some other terrible and far worse feeling, if that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense!