Cynicism and lack of faith in others

I never imagined these discussions would get so involved. I'll try next time to choose very carefully the posts I respond to. It's always an odd experience for me to be the fodder of debate.

I'll write a reply but it's going to take a few days. You brought up a lot of good points. Sorry for coming across in a manner you interpreted as being mocking. I misunderstood you, I think, and tried to address it with ideas that were exaggerated on purpose to illustrate what I thought to be my point.

First, let me say that you seem to be taking what's said to you personally. I want to make it clear what these responses are about. You're new to avoidance, right? You're not really sure what it's about? We don't want you to make assumptions about it that are untrue. It's better that you learn what it's really about straight from the start than have to sort it all out again later.

Elaina wrote:And then there's the stupid things I observed just a year ago. There was a dumb squabble with the neighbor over money and then, that's it, they take the garage key they gave them and lose contact entirely. Initially it's aggressive and direct, and then following this it's totally avoidant behaviours.

This is not avoidant behavior, at least not in the AvPD sense of the word. Avoidance is never aggressive. It would be avoidant if they changed the lock instead of asking for the key back, forget about taking it back, because they didn't want the confrontation.

And again, I'm not criticizing, I'm just showing you the difference. If someone is being a jerk, or selfish, or huffy, that's not avoidant, and you don't have to relate to that. I understand the desire to find out where you "learned" the maladaptive coping techniques from, but avoidance is not something that is modeled. My father hated his life and hated us, so he would become abusive so we would leave him alone, but that wasn't avoidant behavior, that was bullying behavior, and I didn't learn my behavior by modeling him or as a self-protective response to avoid the abuse, as therapists who don't get it have suggested. It's different. If you're avoidant, you're not like them. You're not perpetuating their anti-social behaviors. Don't take that on, because you'll only beat yourself up.

This fairness idea - I do think you're locked in a language debate, so try to forget about the words and think about the concepts. Because, yes, it would be nice if the world was fair. but it's not. Look at economics - do you think it's fair that models that just stand there being bored make so much more money than teachers who are required to put in hours and hours of off the clock time?

I know what you're thinking, that people should give and take equally. But no one is required to do that. People get used to being selfish, they don't notice the inequity, quickly.

You don't want that in your life? That's fine. Then to a degree it's your responsibility to keep it from happening. You don't sit on the sidelines watching it happen until it gets so out of balance the only thing you can do is leave. (This, I do all the time, especially in romantic relationships - hence me being done with them for life - if I can't step up and participate then I can't be in one.)

And you can't just whine "that's not fair" either, because the other person will think you're nuts. If they are on a tear, yapping about themselves, you have to jump in and inject some of yourself, too. You might be politely waiting to be asked about yourself, but the other person is just going to think you're boring as hell. Or the least boring person of all time because all you want to do is talk about them.

Do you see my point? No, don't be a doormat, but don't just lay there like one, either. I think talking back and forth here, as stressful as it is for you, is good practice. You don't have to get defensive and cling to your opinions. You can allow yourself to be swayed by other people's ideas, and learn from them. You won't lose yourself in the process. You might have a few pieces fall into place, though, and learn a better way of dealing with the world.

momof3inTN wrote:Things are not like that for me now, but I don't know how to trust others and reach out without feeling extremely vulnerable.

"Its important to be vulnerable. If you never risk looking stupid then you'll never do anything really fun, if you never risk rejection you'll never find love."

(saw the above on another thread).

inverse wrote:This is not avoidant behavior, at least not in the AvPD sense of the word. Avoidance is never aggressive. It would be avoidant if they changed the lock instead of asking for the key back, forget about taking it back, because they didn't want the confrontation.

The more I am coming to learn about AvPD the more I suspect I don't really have it, or at least not to the level where I would receive a diagnosis. When I had a falling out with some friends many years ago I took the time write them an email, even allowing them them to respond before dropping out of contact. From my understanding a true avoidant would not even do this, since this opens them up to confrontation. This is among many other examples.

inverse wrote:This fairness idea - I do think you're locked in a language debate, so try to forget about the words and think about the concepts. Because, yes, it would be nice if the world was fair. but it's not. Look at economics - do you think it's fair that models that just stand there being bored make so much more money than teachers who are required to put in hours and hours of off the clock time?

I know what you're thinking, that people should give and take equally. But no one is required to do that. People get used to being selfish, they don't notice the inequity, quickly.

You don't want that in your life? That's fine. Then to a degree it's your responsibility to keep it from happening. You don't sit on the sidelines watching it happen until it gets so out of balance the only thing you can do is leave. (This, I do all the time, especially in romantic relationships - hence me being done with them for life - if I can't step up and participate then I can't be in one.)

That was exactly my point. I'm not completely invested in fairness because I understand that this is not realistic. Fairness is not the predominant framework I occupy myself with. It's more of a strategy when one is in a maladaptive or abusive situation (one of many strategies). Initially I said relationships for me are unfair all the time as a kind of hyperbole for how I was feeling at that time.

The rest of it is mostly a language/semantics debate that I am engaging in because I get obsessive over such things.

inverse wrote: You don't have to get defensive and cling to your opinions. You can allow yourself to be swayed by other people's ideas, and learn from them. You won't lose yourself in the process. You might have a few pieces fall into place, though, and learn a better way of dealing with the world.

I appreciate that you are informing me about my misunderstandings about AvPD. I even appreciate Me V2's ideas about distancing oneself from the mindset of fairness.

I don't cling to my opinions so much as I simply like hearing a good argument. If someone doesn't like my ideas then I like hearing concepts in support of a position that is contrary to mine so I may have my mind changed. I often don't really care about people's opinions-- I want to hear an argument supported by ideas. Everyone has different opinions, it's the ideas behind them I like delving into.

My original ideas were not very refined or as good as I would have liked because I didn't think it would turn into the kind of discussion that it has. I'll send more responses over the next few days but I'm going to be pretty busy.

Elaina wrote:Everyone has different opinions

I have come to believe that this is what the bulk of the human experience is based on rather than facts.
Ergo, lots of things can be challenged, changed and in that, there is the hope that there can be a different outcome for any given thing, if it so desired.

The so-called experts in the global sick care machine (including so-called mental illness) don't really know that much more than everybody else and so I believe the public should stop venerating them, giving them greater status, deference and believing that they are the only ones who know how to heal or help people.

I had a fairly long reply written a week ago and I've decided now not to post it. I've recently started an internship and some university courses, so I don't have a lot of time to write posts. My sleep schedule is also completely messed up because I have gone from a 6 am bedtime to a 7 am wake up time in the span of three days, ha.

I likely won't be replying to anything, on this thread or any other. I have enough trouble with time management without getting into online discussions/debates about things where we generally agree with 95% of the content and want to nit pick about the other 5% that doesn't even matter.

Anyway, carry on with the discussions...

I did want to post again and say this:

If we've gone through hardships of our own, I can see that as being a motivator to help others out of altruism due to empathy, but at the same time the 'giver' is getting a sort of secret gratification from helping others, so it isn't entirely selfless. The quote: "The loneliest people are the kindest. The saddest people smile the brightest. The most damaged people are the wisest. All because they do not wish to see anyone else suffer the way they do." is going along with doing things out of empathy, and many people have done this.

So what I'm saying is, people can help others out of good faith due to bad experiences in the past, but there will be some hidden gratification to all, even if the 'giver' doesn't realize it themselves they are boosting their ego a little. However, if the person helps someone because they actually do want to help, then I do think that the secret gratification is okay, it's just that you can't really tell if someones intentions are pure or if they are doing it for the cash (for example). What about those YouTubers who give to the homeless on camera, are they doing it out of good faith or is it because of the 100,000's of views they'll get for it? Have they done the math to work out if the money they'll get from the views outweighs the money they give? So my point is; the secret gratification you get from helping someone is justified (when you don't intentionally help them out of gratification in the first place, that is), but you often can't tell if someones doing it intentionally or not, and if they is in fact some other desire like a paycheck. So I do think it's useful to have an air of doubt about their motives, then again this is about cynicism not altruism.

Course, this is only for those who do it out of 'not wanting to see anyone suffer the way they did', not the people who do it because they actually get paid and don't do it out of empathy.

TL;DR: so long as others do it out of good faith in the first place, that's alright and I've come to accept that it's possible for someone to do it out of good faith (mostly), but people often don't do it out of good faith in the first place.

There's a quote by George Carlin, "inside every cynical person there is a disappointed idealist" and I know this rings true for me, being an INFP and trying to see a hint of good in others has often been my goal, but then they end up disappointing me...